Vegetarianism, Veganism, Etc.

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

AKA: "A hamburger stops a beating heart."
or
"Meat is murder!"
or
"My stomach, my choice!"

A thread to discuss vegetarianism, veganism, and other such dietary styles and how they relate to your being pro-choice, etc.

Wikipedia: Vegetarianism has a lot of information, including explanations of what each type of plant-based diet is.
 

[Grip of Death]

Thank you hun! xd

now we don't have to go off topic on this stuff..

Many people think veganism has parallels for pro-life. Many people think that vegans are religiously-fanatical or motivated to convert like pro-lifers are. Actually, a lot of vegans are hardcore athiests, but there's still a problem with vegans being patient and compassionate towards non-vegans (though on one hand, they are a minority that tends to be disrespected in the first place, so a meek vegan is usually a brow-beaten one). Plus, instead of the biased religious arguments that pro-lifers use, vegans use logic. Just think for one second.. a hardcore atheist would not find veganism attractive if it was religious in the first place.

Many people think that vegans comparing animals to humans is disgraceful, because there is the inherent paradigm that animals are inferior to humans, therefore it is insulting to be compared to one. The pro-lifers are said to dehumanize women by comparing them to fetuses or equalizing their status to a fetus. Likewise, people think that vegans dehumanize women (or minorities) by comparing or equalizing them to animals. Actually, I believe Patriarchy is at fault- patriarchy has said that animals, women, non-whites, etc are inferior to males (especially rich white males). Fetuses objectively are non-sentient, potentially-developing creatures. Animals, on the other hand (including sea life, and insects like bees even though they aren't in the animal kingdom), all have a nervous system (whether central or not) and thus the ability to sense pain. Fetuses up to a certain point have no capacity to sense pain. This would make animals, on the other hand, sentient. Therefore, in my view, animals =/= fetuses.

For me, veganism is congruent with pro-choice and other rights issues. Veganism for me has brought a positive change on my life. I'm even considering bringing it up a notch and being a raw-vegan fooder personally. I didn't write this to force people around, but because I am explaining things in my point of view to help others understand that there is another way to *view* this pro-choice + veganism thing without looking like a hypocrite.  

[20 Shades of Crazy]

I was a vegetarian at one point, but I had to stop because of family. But once I support myself, meat is back out of my system.

The "abortion stops a beating heart" and "abortion is murder" things crack me up, since I've never once met a vegetarian/vegan pro-lifer, and while I have nothing against eating meat, slaughtering of an animal is the same thing. Damn double standards.  

[QueenOfStardust]

Yeah, I'm only a vegetarian, like I stated in the other thread, because I don't like the way animals are treated. I don't think they're beneath me or anything, but I think that natural order is for humans to be omnivores & eat meat. Survival of the fittest & all that. If animals have a good life on a great farm or something, I'm cool w/ eating dairy products, eggs, whatever. (I always joke that eating eggs is like having abortion for breakfast. YUM!) And I think that its cool for people to choose to eat what they want. I just want to see animals treating as living breathing things too. Everyone/thing dies, thats just how it is. But I think that what matters is quality of life, so my vegetarianism is more a political thing.

Plus meat doesn't make me feel too good most of the time either.

I hate when people ask what I miss most, I tell them sushi, and they're like "you can eat fish, you know, its not meat." HOW THE HELL ISN'T FISH MEAT? O.o Its an animal, you're eating its muscle, thats what meat is!
Since its political though, I'm down w/ eating fish when I'm on the coast since its probably caught fresh instead of coming from some fish farm (eating any seafood in a landlocked area can't be a good idea).  

[Grip of Death]

Interesting responses.

Just to clear up my post, I define vegetarian has "ovo-lacto (animal by-products)" by default. I define vegan as avoiding all animal products and by-products.

There's a point of confusion amongst vegetarians and even vegans, and raw fooders.

There's "vegetarians" who will eat chickens, and fish. Or even "vegetarians" who are just like... part time vegs while eating omnivore meals here and there. Understandably, this can upset the vegetarian community. There's something special in practicing one's diet in a consistent manner.

Of course, the idea of an ovo-lacto vegetarian gets the vegan's panties in a bunch due to the still-accepted use/slavery of animals. But there's "vegans" (especially popular in the raw fooder community) who consume bee products. Simply put, bee products and insect products are not vegan, no debate is necessary for that but I am prepared to discuss it for anyone who insists that vegans should consume insect products.

Another point of confusion lies in the attitudes towards animals- welfarism versus abolitionism. Many people are confused into believing that welfarism is enough to promote animal "humane" conditions. I follow the camp of abolitionism- the idea that animals are *just* not ours to own and consume in the first place, which Gary Francione spells out clearly and frankly in his books and website. I understand there is a major difference between survival, which you could describe Native Americans were doing when they speared a Buffalo, versus pleasure. Native Americans also killed porcupines for decoration, which isn't cool in my book on the same coin. Not that I am singling out Native Americans, I was just pointing out an example between survival and pleasure. It's not that I completely excuse/justify killing non-humans for survival, it's just that I believe that there wasn't much of a *free* choice to make in the first place. (Many people are aware that the Native Americans had more reverence for animal life than other groups of people, but also had no clue that animals were still being killed to decorate things). But what I see when people typically eat animal products is that it is not done out of dire survival, but rather, pleasure.

My interest in veganism actually began several years back, when I read up on "vegetarian" books and cook books. I was open to the message, and wanted a healthier lifestyle and I wanted to learn how to cook, but I could not get my head wrapped around all of the recipes that used mayonnaise in the ingredients because I vomit over mayonnaise. Never liked it. I couldn't be a vegetarian following those recipes. I looked at PeTA a long time ago before but never took them seriously. A friend introduced me to the concept of veganism last year. I admired it heavily, but thought it would be very hard to do. I read up on it and decided to cut the animal products "cold tofu". After a short transition time, it was easy.

Not all vegan cookbooks are "great". The recipes are definitely fun and clean to make (because no more cumbersome handling of icky raw animal products!). But there's quite a few books that call for copious soy-analog ingredients to make mock-versions of omnivore meals. In many recipes it simply wasn't necessary to include those. It's fine to have a treat like that, but a healthy lifestyle that you can practically do and afford means sticking to more whole, natural ingredients. I can still recommend vegan and raw fooder cookbooks that are more fun and better to make if anyone wants to ask. And, sometimes, part of the pleasure of food comes from having new dishes to love as opposed to eating the same 'ol things, ya know?

Here's some info on Gary Francione:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Francione

http://www.gary-francione.com/

Here's a fun Vegan F.A.Q. blog from fellow vegans and people from the vegan freaks forum. They answer a lot of questions people commonly ask:

http://veganfaq.blogspot.com/  

[Grip of Death]

Oh and falleneverdark, you can STILL have sushi! They make vegetarian/vegan rolls. Even raw fooders can make a raw-food version of sushi which is pretty different, but still fun. I've never tried a raw food sushi, only vegan ones myself. Also, sea vegetables have a versatile "oceany" flavor that can bypass the sea life.

It's just one example of the fact that dishes can be vegetarian-ized or vegan-ized afterall.

For example, instead of meat topping my spaghetti, i used frozen stir-fry vegetables and discovered that the dish was even more enjoyable that way.  

[QueenOfStardust]

Grip, I agree that it is pleasure, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sure, we could survive without meat, but thats not how our bodies are built. We can make all kind of allowances and look for alternatives, but the human body has evolved to survive off of meat. Yeah, you can go get the alternatives & supplements to make up for what you're missing, but who am I to tell anyone (including my fiance who is avid meat eater) what he can & can't eat? And if a lion or other carnivore was able to eat me in some kind of situation, then BAM! Natural order. Thats you can say its survival for those animals, but they could totally go after some OTHER creature that isn't me. Its instinct. And its human instinct to eat meat. Its a personal choice that I make to eat animal by products, and its my fiance's personal choice to eat any animal products he wants. I can discuss openly with people how I feel, but I will never tell anyone what they can & can't do to their body, and if that involves ingesting meat, so be it. It sucks that animals can't be garunteed a healthy, good life. If free range meat was more available & affordable, I would stop being a vegetarian in a heart beat.  

[QueenOfStardust]

Grip of Death

Oh and falleneverdark, you can STILL have sushi! They make vegetarian/vegan rolls. Even raw fooders can make a raw-food version of sushi which is pretty different, but still fun. I've never tried a raw food sushi, only vegan ones myself. Also, sea vegetables have a versatile "oceany" flavor that can bypass the sea life.

It's just one example of the fact that dishes can be vegetarian-ized or vegan-ized afterall.

For example, instead of meat topping my spaghetti, i used frozen stir-fry vegetables and discovered that the dish was even more enjoyable that way.

Yeah, I knew about the options, but I have yet to find a veggie roll (at a restaurant) that I like, and I'm too lazy to make it at home lol. And I really liked the raw fish texture in my sushi, thats really what I miss. I had some PHENOMENAL sushi when I was out on the west coast last year, and I might let myself again this year when we go out.  

[Grip of Death]

FallenEverdark

Grip, I agree that it is pleasure, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sure, we could survive without meat, but thats not how our bodies are built. We can make all kind of allowances and look for alternatives, but the human body has evolved to survive off of meat. Yeah, you can go get the alternatives & supplements to make up for what you're missing, but who am I to tell anyone (including my fiance who is avid meat eater) what he can & can't eat? And if a lion or other carnivore was able to eat me in some kind of situation, then BAM! Natural order. Thats you can say its survival for those animals, but they could totally go after some OTHER creature that isn't me. Its instinct. And its human instinct to eat meat. Its a personal choice that I make to eat animal by products, and its my fiance's personal choice to eat any animal products he wants. I can discuss openly with people how I feel, but I will never tell anyone what they can & can't do to their body, and if that involves ingesting meat, so be it. It sucks that animals can't be garunteed a healthy, good life. If free range meat was more available & affordable, I would stop being a vegetarian in a heart beat.

I KNOW! humans evolved from big cats!  

[QueenOfStardust]

Grip of Death

FallenEverdark

Grip, I agree that it is pleasure, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sure, we could survive without meat, but thats not how our bodies are built. We can make all kind of allowances and look for alternatives, but the human body has evolved to survive off of meat. Yeah, you can go get the alternatives & supplements to make up for what you're missing, but who am I to tell anyone (including my fiance who is avid meat eater) what he can & can't eat? And if a lion or other carnivore was able to eat me in some kind of situation, then BAM! Natural order. Thats you can say its survival for those animals, but they could totally go after some OTHER creature that isn't me. Its instinct. And its human instinct to eat meat. Its a personal choice that I make to eat animal by products, and its my fiance's personal choice to eat any animal products he wants. I can discuss openly with people how I feel, but I will never tell anyone what they can & can't do to their body, and if that involves ingesting meat, so be it. It sucks that animals can't be garunteed a healthy, good life. If free range meat was more available & affordable, I would stop being a vegetarian in a heart beat.

I KNOW! humans evolved from big cats!

Ha ha i am not saying that, I'm saying its similair instincts. Meat is what our digestive systems have evolved to process & pull our nutrients from. Again, I'm not critisizing people who choose not to eat it. I'm not eating it either. But I think its natural to eat meat. It goes a bit into my religious beliefs, but I feel every creature has a purpose, and sometimes that purpose is to nourish another. That is, in fact, most living things (animal, plant, microorganism) purpose. But again, I feel what is important is the quality and comfort of the life they have while alive. Being shoved into cages, slaughterhouses, small stalls, etc, not quality life. But having a huge range to roam, eat grasses/seeds/whatever, and have the comfort of shelter at night or w/e, and then be killed in a painless humane way? Sounds fine to me. I hope to die a painless way myself, because its going to happen someday. If it wasn't so taboo, and some creature could benefit from eating my remains, then sure, go for it. As it is, likely (hopefully) by the time I die I'll be useless for nourishement and plan to be cremated. But thats beside the point. Ecosystems rely on supply & demand, much like economics. Again, a purpose for every part of the ecosystem. Granted, humans are tearing that ecosystem apart by using TOO MUCH, but if humans used moderation (at least if Americans used moderation) then it would be much better all around. But if one part of the ecosystem isn't performing its duty, the whole thing is affected.  

[Grip of Death]

I know. wink

But I do not find with a lot of what you've said there convincing or true.. it's one thing for you to personally believe that though. I'm not too much in the mood to sour up the thread and debate, though. From my perspective, omnivores try very hard (through some ridiculous arguments) to excuse and justify their current patterns.  

[Lupine Pyrefly]

I'm sort of vegetarian. I still eat eggs, milk products, and fish, which has been great for my family, since they never really ate fish before.  

[QueenOfStardust]

Lupine Pyrefly

I'm sort of vegetarian. I still eat eggs, milk products, and fish, which has been great for my family, since they never really ate fish before.

Then thats not really a vegetarian is it?

I don't get the concept of why fish isn't meat. Its an animal, you're eating its muscle. Thats what meat is.
Eating eggs & dairy is normal for vegetarians, but I seriously don't get why its ok to eat fish. Unless that goes back to the Christian idea that fish isn't meat. But it is. So if you're eating fish, you're not a vegetarian.  

[Lupine Pyrefly]

FallenEverdark

Lupine Pyrefly

I'm sort of vegetarian. I still eat eggs, milk products, and fish, which has been great for my family, since they never really ate fish before.

Then thats not really a vegetarian is it?

I don't get the concept of why fish isn't meat. Its an animal, you're eating its muscle. Thats what meat is.
Eating eggs & dairy is normal for vegetarians, but I seriously don't get why its ok to eat fish. Unless that goes back to the Christian idea that fish isn't meat. But it is. So if you're eating fish, you're not a vegetarian.

That's why I said 'sort of.' And I didn't think of myself as a vegetarian at first, but that's how everyone refers to me.  

[QueenOfStardust]

Lupine Pyrefly

FallenEverdark

Lupine Pyrefly

I'm sort of vegetarian. I still eat eggs, milk products, and fish, which has been great for my family, since they never really ate fish before.

Then thats not really a vegetarian is it?

I don't get the concept of why fish isn't meat. Its an animal, you're eating its muscle. Thats what meat is.
Eating eggs & dairy is normal for vegetarians, but I seriously don't get why its ok to eat fish. Unless that goes back to the Christian idea that fish isn't meat. But it is. So if you're eating fish, you're not a vegetarian.

That's why I said 'sort of.' And I didn't think of myself as a vegetarian at first, but that's how everyone refers to me.

Then tell them you're not. wink The term vegetarian means you don't eat any meat, fish included, so explain that to them. smile