"Is Paganism/Wicca Sexist?"

[Clair Fay]

This was a discussion I saw in a Pagan magazine and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on it were. Try to actually explain your oppinion, though, don't just give a "yes/no" answer.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

I really don't see how it is sexist. Unless of course you get into the Dianic traditions, then it might be viewed as sexist...but even then, an emphasis on female divinity =|= sexism against the male/masculine.

I mean, some mythologies might have some sexist tones (*coughHavamalcough*) in them that reflect the culture at the time, but even in Recon religions, we understand that it isn't something that should be expressed in practice, or even when there are a lot of other myths that contradict that and show otherwise.  

[AiRune]

I dunno, guys certainly might feel uncomfortable in circles that are dominated by girls. Granted, some guys could use a heavy dose of femininity, but some girls could also use a heavy dose of masculinity.

In any case, I think there may be an over-emphasis of the Goddess as a reaction to counter Christianity. While that doesn't mean paganism is sexist, it's daunting for guys unless their in touch with their "inner woman" already.

I'm just saying that some are little off-balance is all. Analytical thinking and drive are just as important as compassion and nurturing.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Many Dianic groups don't permit men in Circle, and there are some other traditions that have a stress on women and feminism. However, I think they are a minority in Paganism. I don't see why Paganism would be sexist. Even the Hellenics and Religio Romana lot aren't sexist, and they draw from pretty sexist cultures.

Out of interest, what sparked the article? Did it say? (Can you recall?)  

[Starlock]

[quick FYI... I don't use sex and gender synonymously as technically there is a distinction between the terms. To avoid confusion as you read this, bear in mind by sex I mean genetics and by gender I mean the social construct of dichotomizing traits/attributes of things into masculine and feminine]

One reason I skittered away from Wicca, actually, is because it strikes me as sexist. Perhaps sexist isn't the right word; it might be more precise to say I dislike Wicca because of its heavy use of gender. They like to slap 'masculine' and 'feminine' onto everything which tends to rub me the wrong way as I don't put much (if any) stock in gender as a construct. Don't get me wrong; using gender can be useful as an organizing metaphysical concept. It just really bothers me that they categorize so many things that way because it ends up reinforcing sexist stereotypes of females being 'receptive' and males being 'projective' and all that (IMHO) bull s**t. I prefer to call things as they are.

Not just Wiccans use this sort of dualism; because Wicca is so influential I see many non-Wiccans using it also. Sometimes it bothers me, but most of the time I just live and let live. I don't use it at all in my practice, but that doesn't mean other people can't. I do believe, though, that if Neopaganism (Wicca included) truly wanted to become egalitarian, it would stop reinforcing gender stereotypes as they do currently. Abandoning gender in practice doesn't mean you abandon sex and its related reproductive mysteries; I don't. It just means you stop calling things masculine or feminine all the time.  

[WitchyBoy]

i dont think so because there is duality in all things in wicca, like male female etc.  

[Clair Fay]

Sanguina-chan

Out of interest, what sparked the article? Did it say? (Can you recall?)

What sparked the article was that many pagan men felt under represented (which is very true) and then it just went from there. The main inspiration for the article, however, was that a few men had gotten so fired up by the topic that they had used the term "sexist" and then the group split into three. "Yes" "No" and "Undecided."

Personally, I'm more in the "Undecided" category. While it's true that the feminine is much more represented, I don't feel it necessarily means sexist. As was already stated, there is a MUCH higher representation of the Goddess (again, to seperate Pagans from Christians) than the God, which I personally try to fix. (I will never say "God" or "Goddess" alone, they are always together.) As to the fact that there is more female witches than male... well, personally, I don't think that says anything about paganism in itself, just that females tend to be more interested than men. The fact that there are more books for females simply defines authors that are trying to earn profit (not saying, however, that this means they are published and write only for the purpose).  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

I wouldn't say that men are under-represented in Paganism in general though. I would say that I'm fairly certain in Asatru that men are the slight majority. I can't speak for other faiths though.

Honestly, I don't see the big fuss in having a focus on female spirituality/divinity. I mean, for a very long time we've been bombarded with male-centered spirituality/divinity so it seems only natural to me that now we're a bit on the unbalanced side with the focus on female spirituality/divinity. I think it'll eventually balance itself out. In the meantime, if men are going to be turned away from Paganism on the basis that there are too many women...then it raises some questions for me on their ideals and motives.

Maybe I'm just not in the right frame of mind, but I'm not really seeing how the majority being female makes it sexism against the minority of men.
If it were women going "OMG YOU CAN'T BE PAGAN YOU'RE A MAN!!" then it would make more sense to me as being sexist. But (short of Dianic traditions), no group is taking that stance.  

[akineal]

Witchcraft is definitely not sexist.
Most coven emphasize that fact by having both a a head priest and priestess represented. Men are given equal standing within the religion, during rituals and in general.
Every Female deity has a counterpart or consort. Their twin/lover/ son or something. . .
The view of witchcraft being a female thing is because when people began demonizing the religion, it was easier for men to say they weren't than have a woman prove it. (Ie: A man could easily saw that the woman's evil wiles made him do it, or just join a convent. remember when men did something and women did something it was viewed differently.) Ironically it was the mens power that removed them from Witchcraft as a sex.
By the time people began recognizing the religion itself, it had already gone through the stereotypical blending machine with signs like blemishes meant that's where the devil suckled you (apparently the devil is straight)
Once again the hate was towards women and men were just thought of as above that. so today men are just assumed not apart of the religion. .. they did it to themselves lol.  

[blindfaith^_^]

Starlock

One reason I skittered away from Wicca, actually, is because it strikes me as sexist.

Agreed, though I'm not sure it's just Wicca that's sexist in that manner. I see a lot of new age practices that label every trait and item as masculine or feminine.

Another thing that bothers me, which while related isn't entirely the same, is the press on the heterosexual agenda. Everything seems to lead back into symbolic phallus's and chalices. I know fertility and sex is a big part of many people's spiritual practices, but continually stressing thee whole phallus belongs with the chalice bit is something I find really irritating. I don't see how straight sex with a condom is more a celebration of fertility than lesbian or gay sex acts are. Both are celebrations of union, and one's potential to create. I don't know the whole man needs woman and woman needs man thing really bothers me sometimes.

Perhaps one of the strangest things for me personally was that earlier in my practice I found the whole masculine feminine thing somewhat comforting. I felt like attributing definitive aspects to each gender sort of acknowledged both and gave a fairness and wholeness to practice. It was a year or so in where I began to start hating it. Who decides that the God and the Goddess or men and women respectively should or do possess these qualities. Why is it inherent in women to create and men to sacrifice? How are these definitions really any different than the older ones where women should tend to family and home while men should go out and provide? They are still incredibly limiting and presumptuous.

To me the craft is about expanding horizons, not limiting them. It's about seeing people as people and celebrating them for what they have and what personalized potential they bring, not what they should have. In defining emotions, traits, and powers as masculine and feminine to me, you are suggesting that somethings come inherently more naturally to one gender over the other. That there is a certain fit or a certain way that men and women should interact. To me, that's wrong and limiting. I suppose if it's helpful to others, I won't stand against it, as long as they don't try and pin me into any one space.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

I am on my period, and thus am invoking my stereotypical right to rant. Because I can.

Gender roles are all very interesting, but they aren't sexism. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. If no one's being discriminated against here, there is no sexism. Dianic traditions do not represent Paganism as a whole, ergo, no sexism.

Besides... VALKYRIES, KTHX?! C'mon, people! There's more to Paganism than Wicca. Look at Odinn! He does women's work! Loki is a mother! Look at Freyja! Athena! Aphrodite!
Frith on a ******** bridge! Yeah, okay, so in a fair few mythologies, for many deities, women tend towards nurturing roles and men to more active ones. OMFG! SEXISM!

talk2hand

K, no. Go tell the Morrigan she's a creator/nurturer because she's female (or three females...) and then see what happens. Ditto Eris. Check out Artemis: a virgin goddess who kills those who see her naked nonetheless is a patron of the birthing arts.
Frigg spins! She holds the keys and is a Matriarch! Oh no, she is fulfilling the expected female gender role! Sexism!... And yet no one would question her strength and wisdom.

Yeah, Wicca has a particular set of symbols related to sex. It was invented in the 50s and Gardner was apparently a man of his time. Quel suprise. And like it or not, our hormones do have an influence on our brain and behaviour. Women are more nurturing, in general. We also have better peripheral vision (the better to keep an eye on sprogs) while men have better long-distance vision (the better to hunt). Men are more aggressive, in general. Men are physically stronger. Women can carry parasites in their uteri.

Wiccan symbolism picked up all this alchemical crap from the Freemasons or whatever. That's why there's gendered symbolism to that extent. Things are labelled "masculine" and "feminine" but that doesn't mean these things actually possess a p***s or whatever.

And as I understand it, the whole POINT of the Great Rite is for Male and Female to be joined in one's own person, so you are both at once. You have a part of each in you but are obviously more one than the other, but the Great Rite means you are both. I think. Where's Trix when you need her?

I mean, what, are we complaining because the Lady of the Isles is a Mother and the Lord is a Sacrificial God? Don't like the deities, then find a different religion. That's Who They Are. The God is active (fire and air) while the Goddess is passive (earth and water). And yet it is She who goes down to the Underworld seeking knowledge, and it is He who was sitting awaiting Her.

Distilling deities down to basic concepts does them no more favours than it does us and should be avoided, lest you start calling Thor "a Thunder God" and leaving it at that. Calling the Lady "feminine" and then thinking She is not an actual deity with actual personality is... rude. If you worship Her, you do your deity a disservice, and if you don't, why the hell do you care? Yeah, some people are idiots and misinterpret s**t. That's a big shocker.  

[too2sweet]

The fact is that most Pagan religions (with a few notable exceptions) are open to both male and female, so inherently there is no sexism (or discrimination). If men are feeling under-represented, it's because they have chosen not to participate. I do think it is more difficult for men, many pagan paths do focus on the goddess, and it can be harder for men to make that shift. They have to be willing to (if not embrace) as least become more comfortable with their feminine side.

Even in paths like Asatru, which are more attractive to men, they still have to be more open. Taking the examples that San-chan gave about Loki and Odinn (and they aren't the only ones), that is something that men have to be comfortable with. I can't tell you the number of times my hubby has come to me and jokingly said "what's up with all this cross-gender stuff". It's something that some guys can't get past, so obviously it's not a path for them.

On the whole most pagan paths require that you know yourself intimately, from all sides. Not saying that this is something that is easy for anyone, but I think that women have a slighter edge over the guys in being able to do this (or at least being willing to try it).

On Wicca specifically...Gardner was a man and I think many of his personal "quirks" went into the path that he created, especially if you look at the Ardanes. But on the whole, as it is practiced now - there is definitely more of a balance between male and female rolls within the religion, and truly you can't have one without the other.  

[blindfaith^_^]

Sanguina-chan

Gender roles are all very interesting, but they aren't sexism. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. If no one's being discriminated against here, there is no sexism.

Actually gender roles are part of sexism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism

sex·ism

1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex ; especially : discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

The second definition covers gender roles, or at least I thought it did.

I definitely agree that not all things pagan or neo-pagan are sexist. I was just pointing out an issue I had. Indeed the Gods and Goddesses have many facets and not every story of even those more stereo-typically displayed don't always conform to gender molds.

I have to disagree that those who don't follow have no right to care or think about other's practices. Certainly many pagans feel they can criticize and critique Christianity, and that's fine. Why isn't it ok to do the same within the umbrella term of paganism? I don't know, it's just a thought.  

[Starlock]

blindfaith^_^

Starlock

One reason I skittered away from Wicca, actually, is because it strikes me as sexist.

Agreed, though I'm not sure it's just Wicca that's sexist in that manner. I see a lot of new age practices that label every trait and item as masculine or feminine.

Yeah, I suppose to be fair, you could say the issue of sexism as it pertains to gender stereotypes is a cultural problem so ubiquitous that you really can't blame Neopaganism (and Wicca in particular) for falling prey to it. One of the reasons it makes an effective organizing metaphysical principle is because everybody intuitively understands it. Hell, it's so ubiquitous that many don't even recognize it as a problem. Sometimes it isn't a problem but other times it causes people to become judgmental about you if your sex and gender don't match their expectations. Sometimes it's serious enough that people have physical surgery to make their bodies 'match' society's expectations of their gender. Not to harp on transsexuals, but I find that a really, really sad statement about the condition of our society and its adherence to gender stereotypes. xd

blindfaith^_^

Another thing that bothers me, which while related isn't entirely the same, is the press on the heterosexual agenda. Everything seems to lead back into symbolic phallus's and chalices.

I blame our distorted anthropocentric view of the universe. Although homosexuality exists in humans, heterosexuality is the 'norm' and what carries on the species. Yet it is far from the norm in nature as a whole, which is why I find it somewhat funny that supposedly nature-based religions focus on such a limited scale of sexes and expressions of fertility. Plant sex for example is much more broad. Most plant species have male/female on the same individual. Others are separate like we are but in more interesting combinations. Some species have female and male/female individuals. Plants can self-fertilize. They can also clone themselves. I don't see many Neopagans talking about clonal fertility or self-fertilization, in spite of their common presence in nature.

Yeah.

Sorry for the obsessive botanist in me coming out. xd  

[too2sweet]

blindfaith^_^

Actually gender roles are part of sexism.

They can be a part of sexism, but in and of themselves they aren't sexism. In the case of Wicca particularly (though I admit it isn't something that happens everyday), those roles can be reversed if needs be. So while there are assigned roles based on gender, it isn't inherently discriminatory sexism, because they can on rare occasions be assigned to those who are not of that gender. It just makes more sense that they be done by the "correct" gender. My guess is that the only situation where they really can't be changed would be for initiation. Cross-gender initiation is core, so to mess with that would probably negate the initiation.