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 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:13 am
Quote: You KNOW vegetarianism and Paganism so hand-in-hand
I've heard the argument before. Under the tenet of "harm ye none," many have felt uncomfortable eating meat, as it requires the unfortunate death of a living creature that may or may not have been raised in questionable and unfortunate circumstances. I'm also well aware that some traditions have taken that to heart, and being a vegetarian or vegan is manditory on that path.
Kudos to them for taking their craft so seriously! Regretably, there aren't enough of them to make the huge difference they want to see made, and I feel they would be better pressed to pressure for betting living standards for the animals. What irritates me, however, is their complete dismissal of the consumption of meat being okay. They also completely ignore research indicating more and more that plants are sentient. (which is a new topic altogether!)
Allow me to explain. Through my readings, I've yet to come across anything in the early stages of Paganism where eating meat was prohibited completely. The Horned God, after all, is the Lord of the Hunt and has been worshipped as such since prehistoric times. Since then, the need to eat meat has been accepted as a part of the cycle of life-death-rebirth. Around the 1960's and 1970's, when being a vegetarin was becomming popular, is the earliest time I can place the emphasis on not eating meat.
I've seen a number of reasons cited for it: It's cruel; the meat itself hinders one's ability to cast effective magick; eating meat in the past was suitable for a primitive society, but we're more advanced, therefore we shouldn't touch the stuff, etc. I find this irritating, because it seems to me that these people are picking and choosing what they feel should be practised, and then preaching to the rest of us about being cruel, inhumane, and barbaric.
I'm not trying to say that one is worse than the other, but I am struggling to grasp an understanding if this trend.
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:47 pm
I think you've pretty much pointed out all the reasons; its just accepting that people use that reasons, for good or poor intentions. Some individuals honestly feel that you should not harm living things, and do as best they can in their lifestyle. There's also that we're not "primitive" (an ugly word in anthropolgy), and that meat production is harming the planet.
Personally, I would prefer that people who want the system to change to actively do something, like busting farmers that use improper raising procedures, or pressuring the FDA to set higher standards for the well-being of livestock. However, I cannot force people to do this, nor do I want individuals to force their beliefs on me.
It would be really nice, though, if we could come to a mutual understanding and acceptance of each others' lifestyles.
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:03 pm
Whenever there's a great questioning in a religion that almost no one has an exact answer for, you have groups of people that come together and form organizations that basically do nothing besides saying they're right. For example: Christianity and the Homosexuals.* Alot of people question whether or not it's against the bible. And while everyone has their opinion, no official answer has been given. So you have extremely large amounts of Gay Pride organizations trying to say that they're right and their opinion is best.
The animal rights is basically the same thing. No one has ever made an official statement that shut everyone up, so PETA (and other groups) are fighting their hardest to say they're the best.
Except for the fact that PETA is known to take the absolutely worst cases of animal abuse, and say that everyone is doing it, practically scaring people into veganism.
As for my opinion? There are nutrients your body needs to stay healthy found in meat that plants can't satisfy. So in order to maintain my health, I will continue eating meat, and never will I consider veganism a pliable path to follow. It is basic human instinct to eat meat, as we are omniverous. And seeing a bunch of clustered up chickens isn't going to change my opinion, and if it does, it will only last until I'm hungry again.
*Please note, I'm not trying to offend anyone, as I can clearly see how it can be taken offensively. I myself am bisexual so it wouldn't really make sense for me to go around bashing gays.
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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:17 am
Jameta Personally, I would prefer that people who want the system to change to actively do something, like busting farmers that use improper raising procedures, or pressuring the FDA to set higher standards for the well-being of livestock. However, I cannot force people to do this, nor do I want individuals to force their beliefs on me.
I've just always thought that perhaps I'd missed something, and I wanted to know why there was such a strong push towards vegetarianism among the Pagan community.
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Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:19 pm
My opinion on this? If certain people want to eat certain things, that's fine. Just don't come up to me and start preaching that the way you eat is more "moral" or whatever you want to call it. Too bad for the ones who try to tell me what to eat, I love candy, I love chocolate, and I LOVE meat... except for pork and steak... and salmon ::yuck!::... they taste funky and they're grotesquely chewy (Xsalmon).
I'm also agreeing to Quadadiddle's last paragraph.
And I apologize for my bluntness if it offended anyone. I don't mean harm, I'm just open-minded and straight to the point. mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:07 am
Wow, I had no idea this was that much of an issue! I'm a vegetarian, and it never even occurred to me to relate that to Paganism. I certainly would never dream of forcing my beliefs or habits on anyone else; that would be entirely disrespectful and I hate when it is done to me.
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:38 pm
elf_witch Wow, I had no idea this was that much of an issue! I'm a vegetarian, and it never even occurred to me to relate that to Paganism. I certainly would never dream of forcing my beliefs or habits on anyone else; that would be entirely disrespectful and I hate when it is done to me. Yeah, I agree. I think organizations like PETA have given vegetarians a bad name and now everyone thinks vegetarians are going to be trying to preach and rant when they see others eating meat, when it's actually the other way around with all the vegetarians and vegans I know (my roommate won't stop giving me grief on how I don't eat meat). What I meant by vegetarianism and Paganism going hand-in-hand is that Pagans cherish nature and view all life as sacred, plant or animal. Thusly, it would see fit (at least in my opinion) that you wouldn't harm that which you see as sacred. (That's not really the best way to say what I'm trying, but it will have to do until I can articulate what I'm tryign to say). A few points about what people said: 1. Yes, the Wiccan God is considered to be a hunter many times, but buying processed meats from the store isn't exactly "hunting"... 2. You CAN live without meat, despite what you may have heard. I'm living proof, if you need proof surprised 3. A lot of people complain that vegetarians don't go out and stop bad people from abusing animals, when in fact many actually do so on a regular basis while others don't have the means or knowledge of HOW to do so. Also, the people blaming vegetarians for not actively going out and doing something will usualyl agree that animal abuse is wrong, but they usually are doing even less to help animal absue than the people they complain about. *Sigh* That's all I can think of to defend my beliefs and others'. I didn't wish to offend, but merely defend. I felt as though this guild's view on vegetarianism was a bit... aggressive. I'm reminded of a recent Witchvox article that a person was comtemplating how people can ask "Why are you a Witch?" and it be okay, but it would be odd to ask "Why are you a Christian/Jew?". This is sort of similar in that since eating meat is so commonplace with people that not doing so is considered "weird". The point is that people who have made the decision to be a Witch (or vegetarian in this case) have put a great deal of thought into it and deserve as much respect as people who put a great deal of thought into being a Christian, Jew, or (also in this case) a meat-eater. Sorry if anyone feels my tongue was a bit pointed. Like I said, I just felt a bit defensive after reading all the posts sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:00 pm
Atma311 What I meant by vegetarianism and Paganism going hand-in-hand is that Pagans cherish nature and view all life as sacred, plant or animal. Thusly, it would see fit (at least in my opinion) that you wouldn't harm that which you see as sacred. (That's not really the best way to say what I'm trying, but it will have to do until I can articulate what I'm tryign to say).
I do understand all of your points, and they are valid. But, it's impossible to sustain human life without "harming" nature. You're killing the plants before you eat them, same as with animals.
I'm not saying that we as humans cannot live without meat; I did for many, many years due to being a finiky eater, and no we're not a hunting society any more. But, hunters were a minority within the tribal society: They went out and brought back to provide for the others. While going to the grocery store isn't hunting, it is taking a share of another's kill, thus helping to sustain the part of the population that eats meat.
My argument isn't to say that it's wrong to be a vegetarian because of Pagan belief; what I have a difficult time digesting are arguments that, to me at the very least, seem as flawed as the information organizations like PETA use to guilt trip members of society. It's not the life style any one has an issue with, more the attitude of "I'm more in tune with nature because I don't eat anything with a recognizable face" if you follow me.
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:42 pm
I always thought being vegetarian and Pagan were tied by the Rede: and it harm none do as you will. Technically, eating meat is harming something, so you shouldnt' do it. I'm not a vegetarian and I dont' follow the Rede, but I was just thinking. I'm of the mind that eating meat once or twice a week is ok, but not everyday. More veggies, fresh fruit and whole grains please! razz
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:05 pm
What we have here is a good old fashioned case of people using religion to push a personal decision on morality.
I find the idea that plants don't count as living beings to be disrespectful to them, and I think it is a tragedy for them to be destroyed without any appreciation for their sacrifice- plants are a worthy part of our world as well, and shouldn't just be discarded when it doesn't suit our principles to aknowledge them.
It's odd for people to attempt tying Paganism in with vegetarianism, since Pagan religions generally teach respect for Mother Nature rather than telling Her that She is in violation of the Rede. How arrogant is that?^_^' Besides the fact that so many gods and goddesses are associated with hunting or farming in some way- I don't think that'd go over very well with Them, either.
These people who cry fowl at others for eating meat are merely avoiding the issue themselves. There are humanely processed meat products and companies, and supporting them is the only way that we're going to make it even conceivable for other ranchers to treat their animals well. So abandoning the meat market is basically like "casting" your vote by not going to the polls. Or expressing outrage over animal cruelty by walking the other way. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, and I do appreciate the sentiments behind vegetarians' actions even if not the gesture itself, but this is in effect the result.-_-
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:23 am
Atma311 I felt as though this guild's view on vegetarianism was a bit... aggressive. It's okay, Atma; just remember that this is the view of a few, and not that of the guild. I do not have the fortunate opportunity of knowing vegetarians and vegans that actually do soemthing, other than handing out grotesque flyers. Thank you for informing me more about the situation.
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:16 pm
I have thought about going vegan before, but as soon as I see a steak, that's the farthest thing from my mind. My thoughts had absolutely nothing to do with my religion. I love animals, even chickens and cows, but like Xena said to a vegan priestess: "If the gods didn't want us to eat meat, why'd they make it taste so good?"
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:04 pm
Quote: What we have here is a good old fashioned case of people using religion to push a personal decision on morality. No one is doing that here. It was simply an expression of beliefs based on what I understand and what is right for me sweatdrop Quote: I find the idea that plants don't count as living beings to be disrespectful to them, and I think it is a tragedy for them to be destroyed without any appreciation for their sacrifice- plants are a worthy part of our world as well, and shouldn't just be discarded when it doesn't suit our principles to aknowledge them. I also never said that xd I count plants as much of a living being as I do myself. However, I think of the plants more as "givers" than anything else. Plants have the type of personality that say "Here. Take my food that I offer you freely. I have no nerves, so plucking the fruit I offer will not harm me at all." However, I don't see animals as quite the same "givers". They don't have the tendancy too often to offer their limbs and say, "Here. Eat me." That's JUST MY OPINION, though. Quote: It's odd for people to attempt tying Paganism in with vegetarianism, since Pagan religions generally teach respect for Mother Nature rather than telling Her that She is in violation of the Rede. How arrogant is that?^_^' Besides the fact that so many gods and goddesses are associated with hunting or farming in some way- I don't think that'd go over very well with Them, either. No one is going up to Mother Nature and complaining that she's in violation of the rede simply by not wanting to kill her children. Also, did you just imply the Gods would be angry with vegetarians for not consuming meat? Just wondering sweatdrop Quote: These people who cry fowl at others for eating meat are merely avoiding the issue themselves. There are humanely processed meat products and companies, and supporting them is the only way that we're going to make it even conceivable for other ranchers to treat their animals well. So abandoning the meat market is basically like "casting" your vote by not going to the polls. Or expressing outrage over animal cruelty by walking the other way. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, and I do appreciate the sentiments behind vegetarians' actions even if not the gesture itself, but this is in effect the result.-_- How does one... humanely... kill an animal? I'm just curious. Anyway, like I said, many people do get out there and do what they can. Firstly, you have to find out that what the farm is doing is illegal, then the whole opperation of actually stopping the cruelty of the animals on the farm is a whole different set of procedures (if done legally). That can be just as difficult when there aren't an exceptional amount of people willing to help you in this cause as it is. Anyway, many vegetarians do their part any way they can, even if that is just not eating meat collectively to put a small dent in the meat producers' pockets. Gotta start somewhere 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:27 pm
Jameta Atma311 I felt as though this guild's view on vegetarianism was a bit... aggressive. It's okay, Atma; just remember that this is the view of a few, and not that of the guild. I do not have the fortunate opportunity of knowing vegetarians and vegans that actually do soemthing, other than handing out grotesque flyers. Thank you for informing me more about the situation. Yeah... they don't particularly help too much. Rule #1 for anything: Don't offend the majority of people you're trying to talk to and expect them be understanding... unless you're Adult Swim apparently xd
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:14 pm
Atma311 No one is doing that here. It was simply an expression of beliefs based on what I understand and what is right for me The topic of discussion in this thread was people saying that vegetarianism and Paganism go hand in hand, and that eating meat is a violation of the Rede. I'm also extending it to cover folks who cite their vegetarianism as a moral choice and accuse people who eat meat of being immoral. I don't have any problem with people who just don't eat meat because they don't want to- I won't cram food down somebody's throat if they don't like the taste. Especially not if I'd like to eat it, myself.^_~ Atma311 I also never said that I count plants as much of a living being as I do myself. However, I think of the plants more as "givers" than anything else. Plants have the type of personality that say "Here. Take my food that I offer you freely. I have no nerves, so plucking the fruit I offer will not harm me at all." However, I don't see animals as quite the same "givers". They don't have the tendancy too often to offer their limbs and say, "Here. Eat me." That's JUST MY OPINION, though. Plants do, in fact, react to adverse situations. They make very high-pitched screaming sounds when dying of thirst, or when someone approaches them with pruning sheers- these sounds are too high to be detected by our ears, but they have been measured. They have also been demonstrated to grow or wilt slowly away from people who have recently traumatized them or another member of their species. It's a slow process, so most people don't notice it unless they're using instruments to measure it, but it's as fast as they can move. Just because you don't see this, and can't hear what they're doing, doesn't mean that they're just sitting around saying "Eat Me." Atma311 No one is going up to Mother Nature and complaining that she's in violation of the rede simply by not wanting to kill her children. Also, did you just imply the Gods would be angry with vegetarians for not consuming meat? Just wondering Actually, people are suggesting that Mother Nature is in violation of the Rede, because they are saying that eating meat is against the Rede, and Mother Nature is the one who designed us (and other predators) to eat meat in the first place. And yes, I am saying that if you went to a God of Hunting and told him that hunting was evil, and therefore he was bad and immoral and should just be wiped off the face of the planet, he would be upset. Or do you think he'd just be fine with that?^_^
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