Capitalism, the Death of the World

[divineseraph]

Alright, who else has noticed the bullshit going on with our idiotic economic system? I mean, far beyond our petty number system bullshit where nobody has a job and people are losing their homes. I also mean beyond the fact that the rich own all the means of production and force the lower class into labor for the profit of the wealthy through supposed prospects of "freedom".

Let's consider this idiotic bailout. It's coming up on one trillion dollars. For those of you who are not aware of what this means, let me show you.

1,000,000,000,000. That many zeroes. That, again, is 1,000 times 1,000,000,000.

Now, this money will be spread around the corporations so that they may use it to hire workers and buy materials so they can continue making and selling products. Basically, we're taking money and giving it to the rich so they can hire the poor so the poor can buy from the rich. Like that's not ******** up at all.

It gets worse. What could we do with this time and money? With the resources this money represents? I did a quick number crunch. Let's assume that it costs 1 dollar a day to feed someone in a third world country. In reality, it costs much less than that, but for argument's sake, I'm rounding way up. Let's also assume that the bailout stops as 1 trillion dollars.

If we took .01% of the money... That's 1/100 of a single percent, we could feed over 230,000 people for a whole year. Imagine what we could do with .5%, or even a whole 1%. Imagine the hospitals we could build, and the schools, and the food processing facilities and water cleansing plants.

Why are we so willing to let the world fall to s**t, so that we can keep the rich in their mansions and leer jets?

Think about it.  

[The_Pathan]

That's quite alot wink ^^  

[yashiro kusanagi]

oh yeah you're right.do you know that the Islamic banks are the only banks that are not affected hardly like the ordinary banks attached of this stupid system of capitalism!so what should we understand from that?!i think simply that we need to adopt more Islamic banks and change this stupid system to an Islamic one.  

[divineseraph]

Or, better yet, remove the economic system entirely.  

[The_Pathan]

Nope... The guys who got 500 huge company's, and earn 100 pounds a second ain't gonna agree ^^

And how does a islamic bank earn money?  

[divineseraph]

No, it has long been the death of the world, slowly corroding the world- The pay gap, and economic situations, have been building up for at least a hundred years- It is the reason there are poor countries- There can be no poor if there is no conception of rich, and if all are equal it becomes an immediate failure when there is a group which falls to inequality. This, I admit, sounds confusing, but it goes like this- If there is no way to exploit, and no reason to exploit, there will be no exploitation. As it stands, through amassing capital, there is much to be gained through exploitation. This is why America double deals- Bombing soverign nations to aid foreign trade and claiming it is for democracy, and at the same time ignoring democratic struggles in Indonesia to maintain the cheap workforce we outsource for.

Capitalism breeds exploitation, and when it works as intended, IS exploitation. A worker must be paid less than the value of his or her labor in order for the owner to make a profit. And thus, property ownership of the means of production is used to exploit workers for profit.  

[divineseraph]

And promoting the cheapest possible labor and materials to make more profit is better? Don't you wonder why we still end up with lead in children's toys, or why we can't make metals like the ancients used to? We cut corners for no reason but profit, and it kills us, makes bad products and lazy workers motivated by money and not much else.

Utopia and reality can be one, if you will stop fighting it. Many countries DID find loopholes, through capitalism. They took control of the capital, the means of production, and thus owned the workers who had no choice but to work under them. Some did it through force, some did it through popular opinion, and some did it through economic control. (USSR/PRC, Germany, and USA in order) The reverting of a semi-communism to a capitalism is not a failure of communism, but a failure of capitalism to drag a good start back to oblivion.


Yes. And exploitation occurs most potently in systems of economy, because the money is easy to transport and anonymous, and also vital to survival. It has the pull of food, entertainment, shelter and luxury in the convenience of a slip of paper. By removing money, we remove the ability to exploit and the rewards of exploitation.

We help those who will benefit us and ******** those who stand in our way. If you remember correctly, WE set up Saddam. We destroyed their original government and set up a dictator, as is our policy. We don't care who we kill or who we help as long as we're making a buck and aren't being directly threatened.

You're not understanding me. If I am paid to make sneakers, 7 dollars and hour (more like a dollar a week where we make sneakers, but I digress) and those sneakers are sold for 50 dollars a pair, and I make 10 pairs an hour, that's 493 dollars that I'm not getting that the company is. A little bit will pay for electricity and packaging, but it largely goes as profit to the company. So bull s**t, workers are NOT paid the value of their labor. Again, that is how capitalism works. This is why we have billionaire CEO's who may never work a day in their lives, who get rich from simply owning the factory where people work.  

[Geek Zombie]

shouldn't this be in general forum? XD

 

[White_Star_Powers]

That's soo mean!

How bad  

[divineseraph]

Slick Southpaw

divineseraph

And promoting the cheapest possible labor and materials to make more profit is better?

No. But that is not the existence of captialism.

divineseraph

Don't you wonder why we still end up with lead in children's toys, or why we can't make metals like the ancients used to?

We buy from China, which has ridiculous standards for factory workers (bangledesh and india being some other ones). But with more and more poisoning and problems with China, it's eventually going to force the USA to buy from elsewhere and to encourage domestic products. One of the reasons I'm willing to pay more from places like Free Trade, and despise Wal-Mart for their business practices.

divineseraph

We cut corners for no reason but profit, and it kills us, makes bad products and lazy workers motivated by money and not much else.

oh, lawdy, you make it sound like it's a general practice. =/

divineseraph

Utopia and reality can be one, if you will stop fighting it.

Really? Just because something is created out of the best intentions, doesn't mean it's impossible to become corrupted. It's called human nature.

divineseraph

Many countries DID find loopholes, through capitalism. They took control of the capital, the means of production, and thus owned the workers who had no choice but to work under them. Some did it through force, some did it through popular opinion, and some did it through economic control. (USSR/PRC, Germany, and USA in order) The reverting of a semi-communism to a capitalism is not a failure of communism, but a failure of capitalism to drag a good start back to oblivion.

Yet we don't have to scrap our entire governmental system to find an economic system that works.
Yet despite all the loopholes, people STILL come flocking to the US, because it is still a land of opportunity.
There are also unions to protect the workers and minium wages as well as standards of a workplace environment.

divineseraph

Yes. And exploitation occurs most potently in systems of economy, because the money is easy to transport and anonymous, and also vital to survival. It has the pull of food, entertainment, shelter and luxury in the convenience of a slip of paper. By removing money, we remove the ability to exploit and the rewards of exploitation.

It's not just money, its what people deemed valuable at the time. Sometimes it was salt, other times it was cocoa beans, and shiny pebbles or furs. Take out money and people will find another substitute for their services.

divineseraph

We help those who will benefit us and ******** those who stand in our way. If you remember correctly, WE set up Saddam. We destroyed their original government and set up a dictator, as is our policy.

It was a fool's hope. He was supposed to be a temporary filler for power. Obviously that's not the case and we took care of him. And a least teh USA is making an effort to do some repair work in Iraq. We didn't completely ditch like we did in Vietnam.

divineseraph

We don't care who we kill or who we help as long as we're making a buck and aren't being directly threatened.

Yet we're the largest in aid for places like Sudan. And before you cry "oil!", most, if not all of it, is under China's control. We ain't getting anything out of it. And we're not exactly buddy-buddy with China after issues with tainted products among other things.

divineseraph

You're not understanding me. If I am paid to make sneakers, 7 dollars and hour (more like a dollar a week where we make sneakers, but I digress) and those sneakers are sold for 50 dollars a pair, and I make 10 pairs an hour, that's 493 dollars that I'm not getting that the company is. A little bit will pay for electricity and packaging, but it largely goes as profit to the company. So bull s**t, workers are NOT paid the value of their labor.

Did you pay for the rubber?
Did you pay for all the materials?
Did you pay for the machines that make the needed piercings and impressions so you can sew the shoes together?
Did you pay for the rent on the building that houses your workplace?
Did you pay for the janitors and maintenance staff to keep the workplace a decent environment?
Did you pay the necessary legal fees instituted by the state and federal courts to maintain such a building and provide such a service?
Did you pay for the workshops and training needed to either operate the machines or how to put a shoe together?
I call your math s**t. Because unless you're paying for all of those, you're being paid for labor. As in, putting the shoe together, should not warrent extra pay unless you have been there for awhile or get promoted, whereas, you do MORE things than at the basic factory worker level.

divineseraph

Again, that is how capitalism works. This is why we have billionaire CEO's who may never work a day in their lives, who get rich from simply owning the factory where people work.

People had to get up there, you know.
=/ Unless there's an inheritance, most people usually work to get to the top. You work on getting the right connections, making the correct impressions, ect.

It is- If you are out to make a profit, and you can get more profit by outsourcing and using bullshit materials, you will. That's why it's done.

And WHY do we buy from china? Is it because we love helping the economies of other countries? Is it because we enjoy the quality goods they offer? It's cheaper. That's capitalism.

It is less possible to corrupt than what we see in capitalism.

And minimum wage is bullshit. It's better than what has existed in the past, but it's still unfair and unjust. Again, the workers are not paid what they deserve.

No. Salt, cocoa beans, pebbles and fur are all legitimate tasks of labor and will be free to take, as with all other things. There will be no need for money.

We're oversea assholes, face it. We've ******** with so many people for our own gain, it's disgusting.

I call your math s**t- The materials are a pittance compared to what the product sells for. Not only that, but there are thousands of workers. If you're really so concerned with how much you're making from my labor, why is it that you're flying a private jet and sipping champagne while I do the work?

Sure, you bought a factory because you managed to get lucky. So what. The entire system is bullshit, and we could do so much more if we stopped ******** ourselves over how much money we make or are worth or what the market is doing. Can you not see how this is so counterproductive and circular?  

[divineseraph]

Slick Southpaw

divineseraph

It is- If you are out to make a profit, and you can get more profit by outsourcing and using bullshit materials, you will. That's why it's done.

But if no one buys your products because they are tainted because you have bullshit materials, all will come to naught. You won't make a profit if people are unsatisfied with the product. Now, I am not denying that many companies do that, but not every company participates in such practices. However, buying cheaply does make items more affordable to the public, including those that have low-income jobs, which is one of the reasons why we buy from China; mass availability.

divineseraph

And WHY do we buy from china? Is it because we love helping the economies of other countries? Is it because we enjoy the quality goods they offer? It's cheaper. That's capitalism.

I agree, it's cheaper, but not the definition of capitalism. Trading with China is NOT a one way street. Our purchase of their products provides jobs for their huge population. They buy American products, such as cars, jets, electronics.

divineseraph

It is less possible to corrupt than what we see in capitalism.

Please give me a real-life example.

divineseraph

And minimum wage is bullshit. It's better than what has existed in the past, but it's still unfair and unjust. Again, the workers are not paid what they deserve.

And prices will go up accordingly to cover expenses and to make a profit. My question is, how bad is it to make some profit? Ruining the lives of others to live a life of riches is one thing, making a profit so you can enjoy some fruits of your labor because you hired people and made a company possible is entirely different.

divineseraph

No. Salt, cocoa beans, pebbles and fur are all legitimate tasks of labor and will be free to take, as with all other things. There will be no need for money.

Wrong again. It was a substitute for currency. People will find ways to characterize "wealth". Making everything free for the taking does not reflect a realistic society.

divineseraph

We're oversea assholes, face it. We've ******** with so many people for our own gain, it's disgusting.

We've ******** people overseas and we've helped a shitload of people overseas. Personally I'm really not into the fad of "OMG AMERICA FAILZ" aspect.
And if we're such a bad country, then why do so many illegal immigrants come into the country? We may be bad, but there are far worse options out there.

divineseraph

I call your math s**t- The materials are a pittance compared to what the product sells for. Not only that, but there are thousands of workers. If you're really so concerned with how much you're making from my labor, why is it that you're flying a private jet and sipping champagne while I do the work?

Depends on the materials you use. There's still labor involved to get rubber, there's still labor involved to get the threads and to make the cloth. This is not the Industrial Revolution where workers are completely exploited. You bring up a point of thousands of workers, suckered at the expense of the CEO's desires. Does every company in your mind have the stereotypical image in your head? Seriously? There are shoe companies that have expenses for certain reasons, some completely justified and others not. It's called "buyer awareness" that most people ignore for the sake of convenience.
And there's some companies, like TOM's Shoes that don't have OMG HUGE PROFITS in mind.

divineseraph

Sure, you bought a factory because you managed to get lucky. So what.

You don't buy a factory because you managed to "get lucky". You have to have an appropriate amount of money, either for a loan or to actually buy the factory, and money doesn't just sprout out of trees. Most people do have to work for their money, even if it's through something like a corporate ladder, they had to get to that spot of wealth.
Getting lucky is something from the casinos. Not commonplace events like buying a factory.

divineseraph

The entire system is bullshit, and we could do so much more if we stopped ******** ourselves over how much money we make or are worth or what the market is doing. Can you not see how this is so counterproductive and circular?

It's not the system, it's the people. There are plenty of economic theories that would work...on paper, but reality is different. What I see is people taking advantage of the system. Some get away with it, others don't. It's called self-interest. Self-interest is part of the natural desire of self-preservation. The key is to balance self-interest to help oneself verses help oneself at the expense of others, which is commonly known as selfishness. So unless you can cure the entire human race of selfishness, ANY economic system you come up with will be ******** up because someone, some group of people decided they wanted to exploit others. A rich CEO that is exploiting workers for his or her desires is no different than a wealthy politician in the USSR that exploits the people to achieve his desires.

People will buy them because they are either the only ones available, or cheaper. It's still a bullshit product, and it still leads to more bullshit products in the future.

Or, they could do something useful other than cater to our markets and use their manpower making hospitals and food for a sick and starving world. We all could. But, I guess you're right, keeping our trade and market of cheap plastics intact is more important than general world well-being.

Bribery. How would you bribe in a system where anything you could bribe with is free to be taken? And for what reason would you bribe?
Illegal drugs- You can't sell them, there's no money. You could trade them, but again, it would be much more difficult to trade produce for coke, and less rewarding since what you would get you could automatically have anyway from working. Same goes with prostitution. There would be less war as there would be no professional military/poverty draft, and also no pentagon contracts and war industries pushing for conflicts to sell weapons for.

But again, that's not what we see. Billionaires. We see billionaires, we see control of economies, we see control of the population. And we still would through such exploitation even on a smaller scale. It would be less disgusting, but exploitation none the less.

... In Rome. Sea shells were also used! I demand that stores accept sea shells in capitalism! I value it, so you should too! Making everything free will eliminate currency. Salt was used in the days when there was no such thing as industry- There needed to be trade as there wasn't as much production, so there was less to go around. That's no longer an issue.

We lure them in with the idea that they can make it big. And they can. If they are born lucky. America has a lot of wealth, and that is a big draw in. The fact remains, however, that we GOT that money by ******** our way to the top, and the few who hold the vast majority of the money hold the rest down through the aforementioned exploitation of labor- We're payed just enough to survive and scrape up enough to improve our condition a little at a time. Just enough to feel like we can make a difference. And every now and then, someone does. But usually, not.

The vast majority of companies do. And Tom's Shoes can give away shoes because the cost to produce a shoe is obviously less than half of what he's selling it for. He's not exploiting AS BADLY as he could. And it's not like every individual worker is "tricked"- The system IS the trick. You have to work somewhere, and unless you're lucky, it's going to be in production or at least directly under someone else in the corporate ladder. When you're in the system, you're being exploited and given just enough to not revolt.

Yes, the lucky part assumes that you manage to get a loan, and that your money isn't swallowed by the person you bought the factory from, or that someone doesn't beat you to the punch. Luck plays a large part in the system- Remember, 90% of the population can not be wealthy. And luck is not a good way to run the world.

The way we remove human greed is by removing the tools to utilize it. That tool right now is money- It is anonymous, it is a symbol of power, time and labor, and it can be obtained in vast amounts through luck or cheating, and everyone needs it. As such, it is the perfect tool for the greedy.