New Hate Crimes Legislation

[JettaKD]

There is currently a new hate crimes bill in legislation. To my knowledge it has already passed the House and is currently in the Senate. This bill's focus is to make punishment for crimes based on race, gender, religion, or sexuality more severe. It is also the first bill (to my knowledge) to allow a hate crime based upon sexual orientation a federal crime.

I personally support this bill, however, I have heard a lot of dissent towards it. Several people I know believe that this bill gives preferential treatment to ethnic minority groups and GLBT people, by allowing certain prosecutions to be taken when they are killed than others. I personally think that there is a large difference between a normal murder and say a public lynching based upon someone's race and that alone, but where I live I seem to be in the minority.

I'm curious to know what the members of Gaian Discourse think about this new legislation. Do any of you think that hate crime laws in and of themselves are discriminatory? Do you believe that these laws will become the thought police? Any opinions are welcome.

ETA: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1592

Link to the actual bill  

[black_wing_angel]

I think that it's a good idea, in theory, but has a LOT of potential for abuse.

Some gay guy picks a fight with a straight guy, and invokes a punch from the straight guy, and when questioned, what woud otherwise be a simple issue, suddenly becomes a "hate crime", when the gay guy claims that it was such.

I don't see it working very well. I think they should put a LOT of restrictions on its power, before passing it as a law.  

[Fresnel]

black_wing_angel

I think that it's a good idea, in theory, but has a LOT of potential for abuse.

This.

A white guy insults another white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, goes home crying.
A black guy insults a white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, and either the black man or his lawyer screams 'hate crime', and the white guy spends 20 years in prison getting his a** pounded by burly black men, and not in the fistfight kind of way.  

[black_wing_angel]

Fresnel

black_wing_angel

I think that it's a good idea, in theory, but has a LOT of potential for abuse.

This.

A white guy insults another white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, goes home crying.
A black guy insults a white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, and either the black man or his lawyer screams 'hate crime', and the white guy spends 20 years in prison getting his a** pounded by burly black men, and not in the fistfight kind of way.

Yeah.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of ACTUAL hate crimes, by any means. But as easy as it is to declare something a "hate crime", such a high penalty is a bad idea.

Maybe if they strictened the bar between "crime" and "hate crime" by a good amount, to protect against abuse of power, then I'd support it.

If it's left with "he said/she said", being the difference, then ******** NO.  

[Archaic Thought]

Fresnel

black_wing_angel

I think that it's a good idea, in theory, but has a LOT of potential for abuse.

This.

A white guy insults another white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, goes home crying.
A black guy insults a white guy's girlfriend, gets his a** beat, and either the black man or his lawyer screams 'hate crime', and the white guy spends 20 years in prison getting his a** pounded by burly black men, and not in the fistfight kind of way.

Fresnel hit the nail on the head. There'll be quite a bit of abuse for power for small things. Really, the idea of a trial based on a hate crime is just stupid. If you want to try a non-violent hate crime (E.G. Grafitti, banners, etc.) Try it as Harrasment or some such. Same goes for murder. Because this actually puts White's at a disadvantage. Anything they do will be labled Hate crime,and bam, Twenty to life.  

[DioxazinePlum]

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.  

[black_wing_angel]

DioxazinePlum

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.

My biggest question is this, why does a crime where I go kill another white guy that I despise to no end, not count as a "hate" crime, when it's clearlya crime of hate?

And just because I kill a black guy, doesn't mean I hate black people. However, it could be argued in court as "a hate crime", and I get burned for extra time. Keep in mind, no one can ever know the contents of my mind, so they can't tell me I hate someone that I say I don't. But you can bet your a** they can still rule it a "hate crime".

That's my problem with it. It's too easy to abuse.  

[Fresnel]

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.

My biggest question is this, why does a crime where I go kill another white guy that I despise to no end, not count as a "hate" crime, when it's clearlya crime of hate?

And just because I kill a black guy, doesn't mean I hate black people. However, it could be argued in court as "a hate crime", and I get burned for extra time. Keep in mind, no one can ever know the contents of my mind, so they can't tell me I hate someone that I say I don't. But you can bet your a** they can still rule it a "hate crime".

That's my problem with it. It's too easy to abuse.

I seem to remember an old SNL skit where there was a blind black guy at a Klan meeting, screaming about "those damn niggers" or somesuch. So... hypothetically, if HE killed a black guy, would it be a hate crime?  

[black_wing_angel]

Fresnel

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.

My biggest question is this, why does a crime where I go kill another white guy that I despise to no end, not count as a "hate" crime, when it's clearlya crime of hate?

And just because I kill a black guy, doesn't mean I hate black people. However, it could be argued in court as "a hate crime", and I get burned for extra time. Keep in mind, no one can ever know the contents of my mind, so they can't tell me I hate someone that I say I don't. But you can bet your a** they can still rule it a "hate crime".

That's my problem with it. It's too easy to abuse.

I seem to remember an old SNL skit where there was a blind black guy at a Klan meeting, screaming about "those damn niggers" or somesuch. So... hypothetically, if HE killed a black guy, would it be a hate crime?

Actually, it was Chappelle's show.

I remember that skit. Clayton Bigsby, a blind black man raised under the belief that he was white, and head of the Ku Klux Klan. At one point, they even had him surrounded by klansmen, telling him "get out of here, ******!" and he just chanted with them, thinking they were talking to someone else xd

I can't find the whole skit, but here's a clip  

[DioxazinePlum]

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.

My biggest question is this, why does a crime where I go kill another white guy that I despise to no end, not count as a "hate" crime, when it's clearlya crime of hate?

And just because I kill a black guy, doesn't mean I hate black people. However, it could be argued in court as "a hate crime", and I get burned for extra time. Keep in mind, no one can ever know the contents of my mind, so they can't tell me I hate someone that I say I don't. But you can bet your a** they can still rule it a "hate crime".

That's my problem with it. It's too easy to abuse.

I agree that is the biggest problem.

"Hate" in this case doesn't mean "hate" as in hatred. It means that the crime was a symbolic gesture against an entire group, like killing someone who is gay to set an example for the other gays in the area. Not that you hate the guy.  

[DioxazinePlum]

black_wing_angel

Fresnel

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

Crimes based in hate are, in my mind, worse than the average crime, and should be treated as such. I can understand how a lot of white people might find that idea threatening, but a bunch of black dudes beating up a white guy would also count as a hate crime, so they ain't got nothin' to complain about.

The only problem I see is that a lot of crimes that weren't really motivated by hate will be prosecuted falsely as such. If a gay guy gets beat up, it automatically becomes a hate crime even if the fact he was gay had nothing to do with it.

All in all, its a difficult issue with many complex components, and I'm glad that I don't do any decision making on it.

My biggest question is this, why does a crime where I go kill another white guy that I despise to no end, not count as a "hate" crime, when it's clearlya crime of hate?

And just because I kill a black guy, doesn't mean I hate black people. However, it could be argued in court as "a hate crime", and I get burned for extra time. Keep in mind, no one can ever know the contents of my mind, so they can't tell me I hate someone that I say I don't. But you can bet your a** they can still rule it a "hate crime".

That's my problem with it. It's too easy to abuse.

I seem to remember an old SNL skit where there was a blind black guy at a Klan meeting, screaming about "those damn niggers" or somesuch. So... hypothetically, if HE killed a black guy, would it be a hate crime?

Actually, it was Chappelle's show.

I remember that skit. Clayton Bigsby, a blind black man raised under the belief that he was white, and head of the Ku Klux Klan. At one point, they even had him surrounded by klansmen, telling him "get out of here, ******!" and he just chanted with them, thinking they were talking to someone else xd

I can't find the whole skit, but here's a clip

Yeah, it would be a hate crime, if he did it BECAUSE he hates black people  

[DioxazinePlum]

People seem to be misinterpreting the word "hate" in "hate crimes".

If you are a repressed gay, and you kill a gay guy, its still a hate crime even though the perpetrator was gay.

A crime is a hate crime when the perpetrator did the crime as a symbolic act against a group, or someone kills someone because of a specific trait they have, such as being gay, black, white, asian, blind, jew, bald, whatever. Its a hate crime if its directed towards a group of people even though it was done to an individual.

Again, its easy to say, oh that guy got killed because he was black, which makes the laws so tricky. Should hate crime victims be protected? Of course. There needs to be strong evidence that it actually was a hate crime however, because of how easy it is to make the claim.  

[black_wing_angel]

DioxazinePlum

People seem to be misinterpreting the word "hate" in "hate crimes".

If you are a repressed gay, and you kill a gay guy, its still a hate crime even though the perpetrator was gay.

A crime is a hate crime when the perpetrator did the crime as a symbolic act against a group, or someone kills someone because of a specific trait they have, such as being gay, black, white, asian, blind, jew, bald, whatever. Its a hate crime if its directed towards a group of people even though it was done to an individual.

Again, its easy to say, oh that guy got killed because he was black, which makes the laws so tricky. Should hate crime victims be protected? Of course. There needs to be strong evidence that it actually was a hate crime however, because of how easy it is to make the claim.

Yeah, see, if I killed someone who happened to be black, as an isolated event (let's say he tried to rob me at knife-point, while I had a gun on my person), then there should be NO chance of it being ruled a hate crime.

Even if I WASN'T justified. Let's say I was just mad at this guy, and blew his head off. Still, no reason to assume it's a hate crime.

However, if I seem to exhibit a pattern of killing black people, or people often hear me say something like "those worthless ******** niggers!" THEN we have grounds to assume a hate crime. But certainly not prior to that knowledge.  

[DioxazinePlum]

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

People seem to be misinterpreting the word "hate" in "hate crimes".

If you are a repressed gay, and you kill a gay guy, its still a hate crime even though the perpetrator was gay.

A crime is a hate crime when the perpetrator did the crime as a symbolic act against a group, or someone kills someone because of a specific trait they have, such as being gay, black, white, asian, blind, jew, bald, whatever. Its a hate crime if its directed towards a group of people even though it was done to an individual.

Again, its easy to say, oh that guy got killed because he was black, which makes the laws so tricky. Should hate crime victims be protected? Of course. There needs to be strong evidence that it actually was a hate crime however, because of how easy it is to make the claim.

Yeah, see, if I killed someone who happened to be black, as an isolated event (let's say he tried to rob me at knife-point, while I had a gun on my person), then there should be NO chance of it being ruled a hate crime.

Even if I WASN'T justified. Let's say I was just mad at this guy, and blew his head off. Still, no reason to assume it's a hate crime.

However, if I seem to exhibit a pattern of killing black people, or people often hear me say something like "those worthless ******** niggers!" THEN we have grounds to assume a hate crime. But certainly not prior to that knowledge.

Thats what I'm saying, I'm sure that the prosecutors do their jobs, and research whether or not the guy has a history of racist/anti-gay/anti-whatever history.

If I didn't hear a history of the behavior, I'm not going to convict the guy.  

[Fresnel]

DioxazinePlum

black_wing_angel

DioxazinePlum

People seem to be misinterpreting the word "hate" in "hate crimes".

If you are a repressed gay, and you kill a gay guy, its still a hate crime even though the perpetrator was gay.

A crime is a hate crime when the perpetrator did the crime as a symbolic act against a group, or someone kills someone because of a specific trait they have, such as being gay, black, white, asian, blind, jew, bald, whatever. Its a hate crime if its directed towards a group of people even though it was done to an individual.

Again, its easy to say, oh that guy got killed because he was black, which makes the laws so tricky. Should hate crime victims be protected? Of course. There needs to be strong evidence that it actually was a hate crime however, because of how easy it is to make the claim.

Yeah, see, if I killed someone who happened to be black, as an isolated event (let's say he tried to rob me at knife-point, while I had a gun on my person), then there should be NO chance of it being ruled a hate crime.

Even if I WASN'T justified. Let's say I was just mad at this guy, and blew his head off. Still, no reason to assume it's a hate crime.

However, if I seem to exhibit a pattern of killing black people, or people often hear me say something like "those worthless ******** niggers!" THEN we have grounds to assume a hate crime. But certainly not prior to that knowledge.

Thats what I'm saying, I'm sure that the prosecutors do their jobs, and research whether or not the guy has a history of racist/anti-gay/anti-whatever history.

If I didn't hear a history of the behavior, I'm not going to convict the guy.

Haha, prosecutors being fair.

They're going to go back into your childhood and find the little black kid you pushed in the sandbox when you were four, and they'll find someone who's heard you talk s**t about Obama's policies, and they'll find some black hobo they can bribe with a ham sandwich to say you kicked him once and called him a ******, and they're going to make it sound like you do this s**t every day and you're a ******** menace to society. Prosecutors are some of the biggest assholes on the planet, because it's their job to convict you through any means necessary.