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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:34 am
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Okay, take a modern 5.56mm NATO round and compare it to the older 7.62mm NATO round, and guess which one has more stopping power. It's the 7.62. Now compare it to one of the standard WW1/WW2 rifle rounds, like the German 8mm. Yet again, the older round has more stopping power. Now compare that round to, say, the minie ball fired by the Springfield 1860 rifle musket so popular in the American Civil War. Guess what? The rifle-musket not only has more stopping power than the German rifle, it probably has the most stopping power of any standard issue regular infantryman's firearm ever issued to an army. These minie balls were lethal. An arm or leg would generally resulted in amputation, and it had nothing to do with crappy Civil War medical care. It had more to do with the fact that a minie ball would quite literally shatter the bone in the limb into small fragments that had pretty much no chance of healing, resulting in an amputation. Even in the modern day you'd see about the same amputation rate from gunshot wounds, as we still don't have the tech to put bones that heavily damaged back together again. Then we consider the way the soft lead round would expand when it hit the target. Ouch. I repeat. The Civil War rifle-musket fired what is probably the most powerful round to ever see use with the run of the mill infantry. I mean, will a 5.56mm pulverize a bone completely like a minie ball would? I think not.
So what is with this trend? Why do the newer weapons always have less stopping power than the older ones?
As you can probably see, I quite admire the Civil War rifle-musket as a weapon of warfare.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:11 am
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:14 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:49 pm
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Fresnel OberFeldwebel I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones. In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that. I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.
Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway.
But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was.
Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it?
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:53 pm
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OberFeldwebel Fresnel OberFeldwebel I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones. In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that. I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240. Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway. But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was. Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it? No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO.
I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:37 pm
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Ubasti OberFeldwebel Fresnel OberFeldwebel I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones. In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that. I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240. Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway. But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was. Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it? No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO. I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on.
Oh yeah! That's right. M240 replaced the M60.
They do this crap all the time. Like the switch from .45 LC to .38 because 'they could carry more of it'. Ended up that they would need to fire much more .38 to take down someone so it was counter productive. Also they were hopped up on drugs so the .38 wouldn't stop them.
So they went to the 1911 when it came around and now they've got the M9. : /
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:38 pm
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Ubasti OberFeldwebel Fresnel OberFeldwebel I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones. In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that. I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240. Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway. But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was. Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it? No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO. I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on. Because concessions have to be made.
They wanted a round that they could have a soldier carry more of, and that recoiled little. This came at the price of power.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:10 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:23 pm
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OberFeldwebel They do this crap all the time. Like the switch from .45 LC to .38 because 'they could carry more of it'. Ended up that they would need to fire much more .38 to take down someone so it was counter productive. Also they were hopped up on drugs so the .38 wouldn't stop them. So they went to the 1911 when it came around and now they've got the M9. : / I never thought about it like that, we went from a .45 to a .38, back to a .45, only to go back to a .38. Awesome.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:20 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:42 pm
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ArmasTermin We should be using hollow points in everything, though. ******** the "rules" of war. It's supposed to be a battlefield, not a game of checkers. You don't see the rag-heads playing by the rules... The rules don't apply. Taliban weren't around to sign Hague in 1899, and Hague only applies between signer nations. Give it a read sometime, it's about a half a page long, and rather informative.
@Demoneye: A dead soldier leaves a corpse on the ground. A wounded soldier takes out two buddies to drag him, a field med kit to stabilize him, an ambulance to extract him, three medics to patch him, two packets of blood in his type, medicine, hours of surgery, and the plane to fly him home.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:07 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:21 pm
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Requiem in Mortis Desert_Fox_Rommel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh. You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse. I remember that episode. The musket put a huge hole in the target. Fresnel: I talked to a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, and he basically feels the same way. Hell, if I ever get the .45 I plan on getting for C&C, I'm only loading it with hollow-points. If I HAVE to use it on a guy, I want to make sure he goes down and doesn't get back up. The musket didn't even penetrate through the body. The mini ball penetrated, but made a small hole. The Mauser made a giant hole.
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:15 am
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Requiem in Mortis Desert_Fox_Rommel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh. You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse. I remember that episode. The musket put a huge hole in the target. Fresnel: I talked to a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, and he basically feels the same way. Hell, if I ever get the .45 I plan on getting for C&C, I'm only loading it with hollow-points. If I HAVE to use it on a guy, I want to make sure he goes down and doesn't get back up. I've always figured I'd carry frangible rounds. I can't see a downside, really. Except they're a buck a round or more, but ten bucks for ONE magazine isn't outrageous. And a frangible round is guaranteed to dump 100% of its energy into whatever it hits.
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