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 Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:01 pm
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Our dearly departed friend brought this subject of concern back to the fore in my mind, and I thought it would make a good discussion if we all posted our thoughts here.
Whenever you train a person in- or even expose a person to- a technique (really, any sort of technique, but here we'll talk about specifically magical ones), you become partially responsible for anything that they do with it. You're not completely at fault if they decide to run amok- but you put the tool in their hands and they couldn't have whacked anybody with it if you had not. When this happens, you become an accomplice to their misdeeds- and also to contribution toward that person's own moral corruption, because you gave them the outlet through which they have expressed and developed it. Whether you believe in laws of return or not is beside the point- it still constitutes an ethical liability whenever you share magical information with another person, and even moreso when you're sharing your information at will over a public service such as the internet!
Now, we are all obviously in a guild- and that is certainly more private than posting on forums like the ED, on online journals, or Pagan/occult internet communities outside of Gaia. But we still don't know who exactly is going to come through here, and whether they're emotionally mature or responsible enough to have access to the information which we may want to share.-_- I know that I, personally, don't even know all the people who are currently mentioned on the guild roster, because they're not all active right now- and I know even less about who may be joining later, or even simply browsing through our forums.
And yet I do want to have magical discussions with you fine folks, here and elsewhere on the 'net- both for my own education, and to share what I know with others. While magical knowledge has always been safely guarded, it is also true that a thing which is too tightly bound can not fulfill its function. My spiritual tradition tells me that magic is a gift from the gods, and that Ra Himself gave it to mankind in general as "a tool to ward off the blows of fate." Such a precious gift should be known and used!
And so, here and on my LiveJournal account, I have endeavored to share what I have gleaned from my studies- always with an eye toward protective magic, and whatever I thought was "harmless" magic. I have restricted what things I will share in various ways- LJ has the ability to set different security levels for different posts, and here I just filter everything for public viewing. I try to share only those things which I could not conceive of a way to abuse- but as Arcane has pointed out to me, I'm not very imaginative on that score.^_^'
So how do we know what to share, and when? How should we filter our discussions? And if we choose to share magical information publically, how can we take responsibility for its eventual abuse?
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:15 pm
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Banu, as always, you've done a wonderful job of constructing a well thought out argument, and you've presented points which I have personally been concerned with for some time. Mainly, I find there is a considerably lack of magickal ethics over the internet. I know I've seen a few Pagan educational guilds, offering classes in a wide range of topics, that neither screen their students or teachers. A student who has just begun to get their feet wet in Wicca is more than free to take classes in Necromancy, and this to me doesn't seem right. Yes, there should be freedom of information, but let those who are mature enough to teach provide it and those mature enough to seek it be taught.
Knowledge and information can be a weapon if placed in the wrong hands. If I place a gun in a friend's hand and they hurt someone or themselves, I'm an accessory. If I give information to an individual blindly, choosing to "give everyone the benefit of a doubt" am I not them karmatically an accessory to any damage caused? The internet is a valuable source of information, but I find it's the first and only stop along the road to enlightenment for people following a craze and attempting to make a dramatic statement. Many never have, and never will, have read an actual book on anything related to Paganism or the Occult. Nor do they attempt to judge the credibility of the sources they're reading.
That said, I do believe that it is the responsibility of the experienced to share the benefit of their knowledge. However, the pouring out of one's soul over a forum is probably not the best idea. I agree that it needs to be "censored" according to the audience. I love the idea of having security levels in a LJ account. As wonderful as it is, however, it's difficult, if not impossible, to implement it on a forum or chat board. The instant you label a thread as "Experienced practitioners only", everyone and their dog will at least read it, if not try to actively participate.
I think the only thing we can do is make a value judgement, made unfortunately from generalizations, and limit discussions based upon out most likely audience. I dislike it, but if by dumbing down my experiences I encourage further learning in another, it's worth it.
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:02 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:51 am
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Nihilistic Seraph I don't think that you can really hold yourself accountable if someone misuses the information you post. The internet pretty much comes with a "use at your own risk" label. And I don't think the gun/accomplice analogy works here. If someone comes into your house and takes a gun that way lying around that you were going to give to your friend to do target practice with, if that really your fault?
That actually wasn't what I was trying to get at at all. What I was attempting to get across was that there seems to a real lack of responcibility over the internet. Let's just stick with forum based settings, for this example, wherein people are teaching. I think people do have a responcibility, especially when they're trying to teach, to gauge the people they're teaching. If I have someone who's both young and has just begun to research Paganism, is it right that I take them on as a student for something more advanced? Not knowing is not an excuse, especially when things are set up into a learning environment. I'm not going to sit down with any Pagan who crosses my path and begin teaching them without assessing them; their skill level and maturity. There's very little effort made in that respect over the internet; an avatar seems to instill in people an feeling of unaccountability. Why? Because you're as annonymous as you choose to be?
If I'm teaching a person I either know is not ready for the information I'm imparting, or I simply haven't bothered to check (we're still in a forum based learning environment), I'm providing them with the knowledge and tools to potentially cause damage. In my view, magick can be both a blessing or a weapon, hence the gun analogy. I'm not just leaving the gun lieing around, just like I'm not imparting a great deal of information in general conversation. I'm actively handing over the gun, and encouraging the practice of things they aren't ready for. You're right that I can't help what they pick up that was unintended, but I can help what I intentionally post.
I very much enjoy the way things run with scared sources. If someone has a question, we give them an answer. We cover the basics before we go indepth. I find we also deal more with theory than posting specifics ("This is how to summon such-and-such", etc.) I know you had given me a ritual once, Seraph, and that you PMed to me. The simple act of doing that ensured it wasn't going to fall into inexperienced hands, and indicated that you did not want all people to have access to the information contained within it. It was likely more of a personal privacy issue, but that's also a very simple way of being responcible with what you're sharing. |
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:44 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:51 am
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:10 pm
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People know what level of experience they have in magick. If you want to impart general, non-dangerous information to people over the internet (like casting a circle, purifying an area, etc.) that's just fine. I believe, however, that if you want to pass more advanced information on, you should communicate with your intended audience privately (like in PMs or one-on-one emails, rather than open forums).
While there is no way to honestly know a person's skill in the craft without perhaps performing a ritual or other magickal work with them, I think that when you decide to share your knowledge, you need to use your best judgment, common sense, and maybe a little meditation if your decision making is hard to decide whether you really believe the person you are sharing it with is ready.
If, after pursuing all available routes, you are not sure, then don't teach them. Tell that person that you are not sure they are ready for the information. Sure, they may rant and rail that they "know" they're ready, but you have to trust in your own instincts. If they throw a fit over it, you know they're not mature enough.
If they ask why you think they're not ready, then tell them what you think. If they can calmly accept it, and work to improve in areas they may be lacking, check back with them later and see if they have matured enough to gain (and not abuse) the knowledge you wish to impart.
I think really, if magick is abused, it is the fault of both the teacher and student. The student should know when something is above their experience, and that they shouldn't try to invoke Loki for their first magickal endeavor. The teacher absolutely must take extreme care in picking their students and gauging their maturity, experience, and willingness to learn how to do things properly.
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:46 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph Someone could easily go into a pagan shop and buy an advanced book, or even randomly take a spell out of the Satanic Bible.
I have to agree with you there; it's incredibly possible but something in the back of my mind says it would be more of an act of desperation that they'd go out and spend money to gain the knowledge. I know when I first started learning, if I couldn't get it online, it wasn't worth my time. When I saw books being referred to repeatedly, I started (sneakily) to pick up one or two. Thankfully, half of the site I checked were decent and sent me in search of level appropriate material. But, not everyone is going to be as average minded as I am/was.
Quote: If, after pursuing all available routes, you are not sure, then don't teach them. Tell that person that you are not sure they are ready for the information. Sure, they may rant and rail that they "know" they're ready, but you have to trust in your own instincts. If they throw a fit over it, you know they're not mature enough.
Another way of dealing with a student you don't feel is ready is to simply take the heat yourself. Tell them that you don't think you're the right teacher for them at this time. Suggest some reading that they might try on their own first. If they come back, they're willing to work up to their goal. If they don't, chances are they thought of you as a quick fix. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:45 am
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Valid arguements on both sides. 3nodding When it all comes down to it though, the most important aspect is the teacher/student relationship.
It is the teacher's responsibility to give the student access to knowledge, to guide them. The first thing any teacher should impress upon the student is not intelligence, but wisdom.
It is the student's responsibility to listen to one's teacher, to absorb all the lessons taught, and to heed warnings and cautions their teacher may give them.
All in all, it is this one-on-one relationship that is ultimately responsible for the magical workings of themselves; I would hate to see that responsibility and choice wrenched away by some government or organization. sweatdrop
(Man, towards the end there I wasn't even sure I was still on topic...rant rant rnat...LOL. And all through that I kept thinking, "Teacher, Student...Master, Padawan...LMAO)
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:52 am
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:05 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph I think the internet to be such a wide open medium that you can't really define a set of ethics for dealing with such an issue.
Sure you can.^_^ Those ethics just tend to be rather broad and basic- as you said later on in your first post, "doesn't that apply in all of life, not just the internet?" And the answer is basically yes- it does. I specifically wanted to talk about how personal responsibility plays into magical activity on the internet, however, because this medium gives so many people unregulated access to information which so many other people are posting, and most of us don't really know anything about each other. It seems easy to lose a sense of personal involvement with whatever happens on the internet, because folks can't see the people on the other end of the line or the things which take place because of their involvement. But our involvement is, nonetheless, there.-_-
Nihilistic Seraph So much is up to the discretion of the user. I might read something, and decide to try it, but how am I supposed to know that it's safe information, or even accurate?
That's a very good point coming from the other end of the situation- on the part of the user who is looking for information, rather than posting it. As Jameta said, "those that take responsibility on both ends shall be fine; those that do not shall be in trouble."
While it's a very good idea to be cautious about your sources, however, that does not nullify the source's responsibility for his or her own actions in posting that information in the first place.
Nihilistic Seraph I don't think that you can really hold yourself accountable if someone misuses the information you post.
How so? If you post sensitive and potentially dangerous information (such as magical instruction) in a place where it can be publicly viewed, knowing that there are people out there who are not mature or stable enough to be trusted with this information, how is it that you are not involved when those people come to pick up the information which you placed there, knowing that they could do so? You are involved. You are responsible for your own action in providing that information, and by extension you share partial responsibility for whatever those people decide to do with the information which you handed over to them. How would you remove yourself from that scenario?
Nihilistic Seraph And I don't think the gun/accomplice analogy works here. If someone comes into your house and takes a gun that way lying around that you were going to give to your friend to do target practice with, if that really your fault?
The "someone breaking into your house and taking your gun" analogy would only work if the information was gained by someone hacking your computer and stealing information off your hard drive. Even then, Jameta is right that guns should be locked up safely, and the analogy could be extended to only storing sensitive information on computers which are not connected to the internet- so that they can not be hacked- or in other ways, such as a BoS or magical journal, etc.
The internet, however, is a public forum taken to the extreme. You may be sitting in your house when you post, but the signals from your keyboard are being broadcast all over the world. Even going out onto the street and holding discussions with random folks on the sidewalks would be more private than posting on the internet, because at least there wouldn't be as many people involved- and you could see those who were. "Private" places on the internet, however- such as guilds or message board communities- are only private in the same sense that a baseball stadium is private. Just 100-1,000 of my closest friends, with applications for membership being handed out freely at the door.^_~ For most online groups, all you need to have in order to join is an email address and the ability to come up with a username and a password. I don't think that it compares to the sanctity of your own private dwelling.
Nihilistic Seraph Yes, you should endeavour to keep your informatin as safe as possible, and as accurate so that nobody hurts themselves, but doens't that apply in all of life, not just the internet?
Yes. 3nodding
Nihilistic Seraph Allright, I get what you're saying. Maybe also a warning at the beginning? Should you be discussing a certain ritual, maybe a warning label would be in order (i.e. don't try this unless you've done x, y, and z beforehand as practice, and allways purify the area sort of thing?)
Warnings would be a very good idea, I definitely agree, and as a responsible practitioner I'd love to see this sort of background information/practical prerequisites for any ritual which I'm considering undertaking. So it's a good start, but I don't think that they completely cover the issue. If someone decides to ignore the warning (because they're too immature to pay attention, no doubt), you are still responsible for having provided the information. If you hand a child a gun, and then caution them not to actually shoot it until they're at least 18 years of age, and can aim, and are on a shooting range, can you really deny your involvement if they shoot another kid during a playground argument, anyway?
I think that the best idea so far has been to keep discussion of magical techniques online rather general or vague- perhaps limited to the potentials and drawbacks of various techniques (and, of course, their ethical applications) without going into great detail on exactly how those techniques are done. Reading lists could be supplied, perhaps? Then, if you feel it's appropriate, exchange discussion of magical instruction through private messages with folks whom you really feel that you know well. There's still room for error, of course, and you still incur personal responsibility for the people with whom you're chatting online- but the margin of error is dramatically decreased. At least you know who's supposed to be on the other end of the exchange.^_^
Nihilistic Seraph The internet itself was created to be a sort of free flowing sort of anarchal realm, with information free for all?
Anarchy is where anyone who can get away with it gets to do whatever they want to anyone else, and that is not what the internet was created to be. The internet was created for global exchange of information, but people are still accountable for what they chose to share, how, and when. There is nothing which will remove that from the exchange.^_^
Nihilistic Seraph Someone could easily go into a pagan shop and buy an advanced book, or even randomly take a spell out of the Satanic Bible. I haven't even bothered to read the whole thing. I've flipped through rituals there and know automatically that the stuff is beyond me, at least for now.
You're right, they certainly could- and then it would be that author's responsibility for providing that information.^_^ However, I'm inclined to believe that publishing this sort of material through books is safer than openly sharing it over the internet- as Gypsy said, the kinds of impetuous, immature folks who are our main concern are unlikely to invest actual $$$ or study time in finding and reading magical textbooks. They're much more likely to look for a free, quick fix on the internet- but you are certainly correct that there is a similar sort of responsibility invoked when publishing magical books, as well.
If we keep our online discussions focused on the potential of various techniques and the wisdom and ethics which go behind their use, and folks have to read through all of that before seeking out an instruction book to actually get the technique itself, I believe that we'll have contributed greatly to the magical instruction of our community. Arcane and I were speaking on the subject the other night, and he was right that a sense of magical responsibility and wisdom is the very first thing which a magical practitioner should learn (and I can see that Blukattt agrees^_^)- but it's usually glossed over in the textbooks. sad |
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:08 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:21 pm
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Siofra Da`Halbria If, after pursuing all available routes, you are not sure, then don't teach them. Tell that person that you are not sure they are ready for the information. Sure, they may rant and rail that they "know" they're ready, but you have to trust in your own instincts. If they throw a fit over it, you know they're not mature enough.
Yep- pitching a tantrum over not getting magical instruction would be a definite confirmation point, for me, that not teaching them was the right thing to do.^_^'
Siofra Da`Halbria I think really, if magick is abused, it is the fault of both the teacher and student. The student should know when something is above their experience, and that they shouldn't try to invoke Loki for their first magickal endeavor. The teacher absolutely must take extreme care in picking their students and gauging their maturity, experience, and willingness to learn how to do things properly.
Hear, hear- I am in complete agreement with this.^_^ |
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:13 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:52 pm
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