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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:52 am


One of the things I find interesting in many of the books you find on neo-paganism is that most rely on the propaganda misinformation that Protestants used to label Catholics as pagan and/or Anti-Christian. Classic examples of this are the origin of Christmas and Easter. While no religion exists in a vacuum and there's bound to be some mixing, it's one thing for converts from a religion to incorporate elements of they're former culture/religion into their new religion and another for proselytizers to force a religious symbol or practice to mean something different to win converts.

Thoughts, opinions?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:25 am


I try not to read any books that talk about any religion other than it's own, unless they are comparing ideas and beliefs. If it has any kind of slander, I shy away. I prefer to make my own opinions based on the actual teachings and history of that religion, not what another has to say about it.

I assume you understand that the Christian Easter and Christmas practices and symbols were actually originally derived from ancient pagan practices. I don't believe Christians "forced" a religious symbol to mean something different to win converts. Yes, dates and symbols WERE used from the pagan religions, but I believe it was to make the conversion easier. Yes, it was to win more converts, but in actuality, the symbols they chose to use DID fit in with their original message/holiday.

Lets take Easter, as it's the perfect example. For many ancient pagans (I will use the term loosely for simplicities sake), Spring symbolized rebirth. Rabbits and eggs were actually used as a symbol for this. Easter is meant to be the "rise" of Christ, which can also be seen as a rebirth. Christians used these symbols in their practices to help convert people, but it was not the sole purpose.

Also, believe it or not, when Christianity first started being practiced, they did not try and convert everyone. They lived in peace with other religions, including pagans, just fine. So I think it was a mix of people who were converting taking some of their beliefs with them, along with things being made similar to get more converts.

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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:18 am


Dragoness Arleeana

I assume you understand that the Christian Easter and Christmas practices and symbols were actually originally derived from ancient pagan practices. I don't believe Christians "forced" a religious symbol to mean something different to win converts. Yes, dates and symbols WERE used from the pagan religions, but I believe it was to make the conversion easier. Yes, it was to win more converts, but in actuality, the symbols they chose to use DID fit in with their original message/holiday.
The dates had they choose for Christmas and Easter had little connection with paganism and more with Judaism and when Christianity believes that Jesus died. If you are talking about symbols such as Christmas trees and Rabbits. Yes they did derive from pagan practices but those were localized innovations to the celebration of the holiday. That would be like saying because pagans party, partying is a pagan practice.

Quote:
Lets take Easter, as it's the perfect example. For many ancient pagans (I will use the term loosely for simplicities sake), Spring symbolized rebirth. Rabbits and eggs were actually used as a symbol for this. Easter is meant to be the "rise" of Christ, which can also be seen as a rebirth. Christians used these symbols in their practices to help convert people, but it was not the sole purpose.
You are illustrating some of the Protestant misinformation that I am talking about. The dating of Easter is calculated by finding the first Sunday after the first Pashal full moon after the spring equinox. If it was supposed to replace fertility festivals why celebrate it well after the equinox? As for the eggs, the usage of eggs has more to do with Lent pratices and possibly a remnant from Passover practices with a pagan incorporation. During Lent, it was tradition for all carne, including eggs, to be fasted from. After Lent, i.e. Easter Sunday, the fast was over and you had all these eggs saved up. Next hard boiled eggs were traditionally part of Passover Seder and symbolized the festival's sacrifice offered back when there was a Temple in Jerusalem. As for the coloring, of eggs, the traditional color that eggs were normally colored was red and has to do with Roman lore concerning an emperor's conversion to Christianity. As for the rabbits that's obviously an innovation introduced at a later date after the fall of Rome. Yes this was an appropriated symbol into Christianity but whether it was done by the converts as a cultural carry over or proselytizers as a means to convert is unclear.

Edit: At best you could say that it was a variation of the Passover celebration centered around the Christ resurrection mythos with Gentile pageantry and flair thrown in. I might have misunderstood you but if this is what you were trying to say then yes that is correct. Considering that much of Christianity was focused on Gentiles, it's unclear whether the Gentile flair and pageantry was added by the converts or by those doing the converting.

Quote:
Also, believe it or not, when Christianity first started being practiced, they did not try and convert everyone. They lived in peace with other religions, including pagans, just fine. So I think it was a mix of people who were converting taking some of their beliefs with them, along with things being made similar to get more converts.
Yes Christianity was initially a very eclectic religion among the Gentiles though an orthodoxy of some kind had to be developed else it would have been completely lost seeing as Christianity was about to die around the time Marcionism was becoming popular.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:21 pm


You misunderstand my post. I did not compare the dates of Easter and the Spring Equinox. I was simply stating that spring symbolizes rebirth, and during the Spring Equinox (the time of rebirth). certain symbols were used. These symbols were carried over (or used, however it may have been) into Easter, which had a similar symbolism behind it. The Spring Equinox was about rebirth, as was Easter, so similar symbols were used. I did not say that the dates were the same, or even close to being used.

I am unsure when rabbits were introduced into Easter as a symbol of rebirth, but they were long a symbol of it before that.

As for Christmas, I'm not all too sure what has been carried over from pagan traditions in terms of dates and symbolism. I know that here in America, the birth of Jesus is celebrated during December, when in fact it should be in June (I think that's the month). I know there are countries that celebrate it correctly though. I am not sure if this practice was to win converts, or if there is another meaning behind it however. Symbolism wise, I know quite a lot was used. The colors, holly, and the idea of a feast. Here's a link that can give more detail http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/christmas.html

Dragoness Arleeana

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:31 pm


Again I agree to avoid religous books because either way they all end up point at some other religon as if it's their fault or your all going to hell or something like that again RELIGON IS SO COMPLICATED gonk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:40 pm


Hell and damnation have nothing to do with this topic. This topic is comparing different symbols used in Christianity, where those symbols originated from, and if they were either brought over with the people converting, or if they were purposefully used to get converts.

Dra (mind if I call you that?), is talking about the misinformation that many neo-pagan books rely on. I have read plenty of new age books where they talk about how every Christian holiday is similar to an ancient pagan one, and that they were all stolen to get people to convert. I, however, disagree with this, and that is what we are discussing.

Dragoness Arleeana

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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:28 pm


Dragoness Arleeana
You misunderstand my post. I did not compare the dates of Easter and the Spring Equinox. I was simply stating that spring symbolizes rebirth, and during the Spring Equinox (the time of rebirth). certain symbols were used. These symbols were carried over (or used, however it may have been) into Easter, which had a similar symbolism behind it. The Spring Equinox was about rebirth, as was Easter, so similar symbols were used. I did not say that the dates were the same, or even close to being used.
While you did not say Easter specifically you had said something along the lines of:
Quote:
Yes, dates and symbols WERE used from the pagan religions, but I believe it was to make the conversion easier.
This is why I had address the dating of Easter in my response. As for the symbolism again some of the symbolism is unclear on it's origin since some can be linked back to Judaism such as eggs. My point was initially to address that much of the research linking Easter to having a pagan origin comes from protestants trying to demonize Catholicism and justify themselves as being more "True" Christians.

Quote:
I am unsure when rabbits were introduced into Easter as a symbol of rebirth, but they were long a symbol of it before that.
I never disputed that and even acknowledged that it was a localized innovation incorporated into the holiday. Though rabbits have very little to do with Easter tradition wink

Quote:
As for Christmas, I'm not all too sure what has been carried over from pagan traditions in terms of dates and symbolism. I know that here in America, the birth of Jesus is celebrated during December, when in fact it should be in June (I think that's the month). I know there are countries that celebrate it correctly though. I am not sure if this practice was to win converts, or if there is another meaning behind it however. Symbolism wise, I know quite a lot was used. The colors, holly, and the idea of a feast. Here's a link that can give more detail http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/christmas.html
The dating of Christmas has more to do with a belief in Judaism that prophets are conceived on the same day that they die. It was believed that Jesus died on March 25 (the Feast of Annunciation, so then his date of birth had to be on December 25 by their logic. The earliest dating we have of Christmas being celebrated on December 25 by Roman Christians is 243 CE based on the Chronography of 354. The only connection that Christmas has with Saternalia is that they were both celebrations and shared elements that are common to all festivals. Now if this dating is correct that would mean that the celebration of Sol Invictus (another holiday Christmas is accused of replacing) was created after Christmas was being celebrated by Christians as a way for the Roman government to attract people away from this popular religion they perceived as an atheist threat (yes early Christians were regarded as atheists). Seeing as that it was the Roman Christians that ended up winning central authority of the religion, it's no surprise that the celebration of Christmas on the 25 of December continued as opposed to other dates proposed by other sects or based on more accurate calculations. Though the celebration of Christmas is more about a Mass focused on how Christ came into the world than his actual birth so it's a bit of a misnomer to say that Christmas about Jesus' birthday.

As for the holly and colors of Christmas being incorporated from Pagan practices I have no qualm with saying that they did come from pagan practices though since the carry overs are being used as "garnishes" to holiday rather than actually central to the holiday, it's quite a stretch for those to claim that Christmas has a pagan origin.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:29 pm


Dragoness Arleeana
Hell and damnation have nothing to do with this topic. This topic is comparing different symbols used in Christianity, where those symbols originated from, and if they were either brought over with the people converting, or if they were purposefully used to get converts.

Dra (mind if I call you that?), is talking about the misinformation that many neo-pagan books rely on. I have read plenty of new age books where they talk about how every Christian holiday is similar to an ancient pagan one, and that they were all stolen to get people to convert. I, however, disagree with this, and that is what we are discussing.
You may call me Robbie biggrin

rmcdra

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Dragoness Arleeana

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:26 pm


lol, ok, if I can remember the name I will.

I didn't know that about Christmas, interesting. I learn something new every day.
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