Peace between religions....

[RedHairjoe]

There has been a trend that I've been seeing in the news and in our great nation that has been bothering me for sometime. Something I never thought would actually happen.

The controversial 'Obamacare' has become a hot issue in our nation for countless reasons. This post is not going to be some political rant or anything like that, the presence of the Health Care bill is a legitimate and integral part of my tale and I will try not go into the politics of it to a great extent.

Now to the real reason of this post....

On facebook, I 'liked' a page called "The witche's voice" which is a pagan community that often posts tidbits of news typically involving religion, nature, public events etc. Stuff you'd expect to find on a pagan/wiccan site or whatever name you prefer to use.

It just so happened that one day, approximately a month or so ago an article was posted about how the Christan community and other like minded organizations are against several mandates of Obamacare including the fact the church and other groups following that religious ethic are forced to support contraceptive methods/options.

The comments that some people posted shocked me a great deal. I won't say any names of course and I do see, respect and understand their point of view. Several commentators were supportive and believed this is what the church deserves because of involvement with the government and other events.

Many of those people voiced concerns of live and let live but ONE comment just blew my top.

"If I said it once I said it a thousand times: There will be world peace when every church, synagogue, and mosque are nothing more than crumbling facades."

followed promptly by

"I so agree with you! what ever happened to live and let live!!! Blessed Be all please walk in Love and Light with me !)O("

I was taken back by these comments!

Like I said I'm not going into the politics of the church or the health care and the opinions following it. I'm against the unfair treatment and demonetization of people. I'm not siding with one side over another I'm siding with what is right and wrong. And I would be against whoever is in the wrong regardless of position, person or beliefs.

I did some hard thinking both on myself and my life as well as the issue as a whole. Looking at all sides and factors to see what I think of it all.

I am a student of history, I'm even majoring in it in college so I can be a history teacher. I know there is bad history between Christians and non-Christians, I'm not being ignorant of that point. I reached a very important conclusion and I simply want to state my opinions so it can be heard and perhaps see what others think of it.

We live in a nation where we have a separation of church and state but that belief is somewhat debated and won't go into it to great detail. But we do live in a nation with a great deal of religious freedom, the first amendment of our Constitution is the FREEDOM OF RELIGION and there is no argument of this because where else do you see Muslims, Jews, Christian, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists and countless other sects. Although there are individuals that are radicals of a certain religions and we see it in all groups but we are protected by the law of this nation.

I will say I oppose the health care mandate about the church and other religious based organizations being forced to accept something they oppose. To me, the church or Christianity is not the villain of the story but the overbearing government is. It's going against their right to follow their own religious structure.

What I really saw from this is the fact that it could be done and the precedent made. If the government is able to force the hand of one of the largest religious groups of the nation what can it do to the smaller groups?

I myself am not the biggest fan of the church, I won't deny it. I left the catholic faith of my family for my own path but they are just as much American citizens as I am under the Constitution and I respect the religion of all humanity.

I reached a second conclusion, the pagan community has just as much intolerance towards the Christian world and in several media outlets the church is demonized to be all evil.

We are all Americans and all Human beings on this great planet and it is impossible that ALL Christians are the bad guys. What I am trying to say without bias or to make enemies is start actually making peace with Christians. How many believe that Christians are all close minded? but doesn't that make us just as close minded for not showing them how good we are or unwillingness to change our opinion? We all love god in one form or another and we must learn to live in peace with all peoples.

Perhaps we must make the first move and as Jesus said, "Go the extra mile." It's not about one religion over another its about being together in peace and what is right and wrong.



I am no politician or a "public speaker" and perhaps I had forgotten to write something in my post that would help people better understand my view. I'm just looking to do the right thing in the world, something we all seek to do in our world.


I openly encourage comments and rebuttals because that is how we advance ourselves in this world. Knowledge is power.  

[X-Yami-no-Ko-X]

There's a topic similar to this in M&R that I've been lurking. While I think it would be wonderful for there to be peace among the religions its just not possible. You're always going to have close-minded people on either side for various reasons. Also the fact that one religion could be completely against something and another could be completely for it they wouldn't be able to work well together if it was something extreme.  

[Morgandria]

1) We're not all Americans here. Frankly that assumption is one of the major things that tends to tick the rest of the world off. The world has a lot of distinct perspectives that really are alien to the American mindset, and the implication that the USA has primacy over them is what pisses people off.

2) Peace isn't necessarily a shared tenet or desire of pagan faiths. I'm personally indifferent to the idea, since strife comes with change, and that's the way of things in my cosmology. I'm perfectly content with detente, though. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

3) Considering the number of pagans in the US who are converts from fundamentalist Christian faiths and still dealing with that baggage, you get a lot of reactionary sort of things from that community. Also, every community has hypocrites.

It's not the religious affilliation. It's the people. People suck, period.

However...it's again not right to assume that the US pagan community's issues with other faiths are same all over the world. Other nations, other communities, don't have the same makeup or background as the US, and these things are not as much of an issue - if at all.

This is not an new issue. It's one that's been happening since neo-paganism began to emerge, and it's not going to go away any time soon. What you have are conflicting tenets of religious belief, and neither side is about to change that perspective. Many an olive branch has been extended between faiths; sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on who is involved, and where you are.

It is rather naive, I think, to believe that the USA is the only bastion of freedom in the world. In fact, I rather think it's slipped off that pedestal since 9/11. Your nation has placed more and more limitations on the liberties of its' citizens - and frankly if you're a non-American it's horrifying to watch. It's not a stretch, from there, to think your nation has also moved farther into the direction of theocracy than you'd like to think.

Also - can I ask you politely to please not to use 'Blessed Be' in casual conversation, or outside of its' proper ritual context? Doing so denigrates the sacred language of my faith.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

It's considered rude to bless other people in the way in which you ended your post. Not only is it ritual language taken out of context, but personally I don't want to be blessed by you. I don't know who you are, except someone who thinks we suck based on what someone else said somewhere else entirely.

There isn't really a "Pagan community". There's very little that ties us together except that religiously, we're "outsiders". We vary massively . There's also a tendency for stupid people to latch onto the Pagan umbrella without knowing much about it as a "phase" or similar. We are all very well aware of that. If you came here to tell us that some Pagans are stupid, we already know. Thanks.

This guild isn't responsible for some idiots on facebook. What do you want? Of course there won't be world peace if all the Abrahamic religions fell. Most wars don't have anything to do with religion. Have these people never heard of Genghis Kahn? People on facebook are stupid. Colour me shocked. The way you're talking about "the Pagan community" as one single group that is intolerant is beyond ridiculous. If this is your way of retaliating or something for a slight someone else gave you and/or your religion, you should probably go and talk to them, not a totally different group of people who may not have a damn thing in common with the first group.

This isn't the place for discussion on the misogynistic bullshit that was that health insurance shitstorm. For that, you want ED: Politics. Off you go.

Quote:

But we do live in a nation with a great deal of religious freedom, the first amendment of our Constitution is the FREEDOM OF RELIGION and there is no argument of this because where else do you see Muslims, Jews, Christian, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists and countless other sects.

Where else? Pretty much everywhere in the Western world, dude. Your freedom is not special... and honestly the way your politics are steeped in Christianity is pretty shocking to many foreigners. Seriously. I don't know the religions of most of my politicians, and I do not care. Nor should I, because their religion shouldn't factor in. The way American politics currently work, there is no way a non-Christian could become president. Something has to change with the political system, or socially, for a non-Christian to have a chance at all. I mean, imagine being a kid and knowing you'd never be president because your beliefs essentially excluded you.

And we're not "all Americans". I am not an American. I do not want to be an American. America is a terrible place where you have to pay money to get healthcare.

I have no idea why you came in here to say that, except to be intentionally confrontational. Or possibly to complain about people we have nothing to do with and have never met. Why are you here?  

[RedHairjoe]

X-Yami-no-Ko-X

There's a topic similar to this in M&R that I've been lurking. While I think it would be wonderful for there to be peace among the religions its just not possible. You're always going to have close-minded people on either side for various reasons. Also the fact that one religion could be completely against something and another could be completely for it they wouldn't be able to work well together if it was something extreme.

yes I completely agree that some people are totally close minded but that is not a reason to not try. There is always someone who agrees. perhaps the option is not to make a complete peace but to at least clear the air and make peace. I had a college professor that is a part of a group that harbors good relations with muslims and chiristians. why not have something like that? better to try and fail and learn for the next occasion then not try at all.  

[RedHairjoe]

Morgandria

1) We're not all Americans here. Frankly that assumption is one of the major things that tends to tick the rest of the world off. The world has a lot of distinct perspectives that really are alien to the American mindset, and the implication that the USA has primacy over them is what pisses people off.

2) Peace isn't necessarily a shared tenet or desire of pagan faiths. I'm personally indifferent to the idea, since strife comes with change, and that's the way of things in my cosmology. I'm perfectly content with detente, though. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

3) Considering the number of pagans in the US who are converts from fundamentalist Christian faiths and still dealing with that baggage, you get a lot of reactionary sort of things from that community. Also, every community has hypocrites.

It's not the religious affilliation. It's the people. People suck, period.

However...it's again not right to assume that the US pagan community's issues with other faiths are same all over the world. Other nations, other communities, don't have the same makeup or background as the US, and these things are not as much of an issue - if at all.

This is not an new issue. It's one that's been happening since neo-paganism began to emerge, and it's not going to go away any time soon. What you have are conflicting tenets of religious belief, and neither side is about to change that perspective. Many an olive branch has been extended between faiths; sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on who is involved, and where you are.

It is rather naive, I think, to believe that the USA is the only bastion of freedom in the world. In fact, I rather think it's slipped off that pedestal since 9/11. Your nation has placed more and more limitations on the liberties of its' citizens - and frankly if you're a non-American it's horrifying to watch. It's not a stretch, from there, to think your nation has also moved farther into the direction of theocracy than you'd like to think.

Also - can I ask you politely to please not to use 'Blessed Be' in casual conversation, or outside of its' proper ritual context? Doing so denigrates the sacred language of my faith.

I apologize for the bleed be comment at the end. I'll remove it. perhaps it is not the right place or time for it  

[Morgandria]

caesar821

I apologize for the bleed be comment at the end. I'll remove it. perhaps it is not the right place or time for it

Thank you. It's appreciated.  

[RedHairjoe]

I have clearly made a series of assumptions and a few quick enemies in the process of one post. I do apologize for it and suppose I should leave the guild before worse things happen.....Perhaps I worded it wrong, posted in the wrong forum or several other things. I was just trying to get feed back and see what would happen.

I apologize on to everyone for what I have said and any negative feelings that has spawned from it. I acted hastily and should have found the right place to post and find the right people to talk with.  

[RedHairjoe]

Sanguina Cruenta

It's considered rude to bless other people in the way in which you ended your post. Not only is it ritual language taken out of context, but personally I don't want to be blessed by you. I don't know who you are, except someone who thinks we suck based on what someone else said somewhere else entirely.

There isn't really a "Pagan community". There's very little that ties us together except that religiously, we're "outsiders". We vary massively . There's also a tendency for stupid people to latch onto the Pagan umbrella without knowing much about it as a "phase" or similar. We are all very well aware of that. If you came here to tell us that some Pagans are stupid, we already know. Thanks.

This guild isn't responsible for some idiots on facebook. What do you want? Of course there won't be world peace if all the Abrahamic religions fell. Most wars don't have anything to do with religion. Have these people never heard of Genghis Kahn? People on facebook are stupid. Colour me shocked. The way you're talking about "the Pagan community" as one single group that is intolerant is beyond ridiculous. If this is your way of retaliating or something for a slight someone else gave you and/or your religion, you should probably go and talk to them, not a totally different group of people who may not have a damn thing in common with the first group.

This isn't the place for discussion on the misogynistic bullshit that was that health insurance shitstorm. For that, you want ED: Politics. Off you go.

Quote:

But we do live in a nation with a great deal of religious freedom, the first amendment of our Constitution is the FREEDOM OF RELIGION and there is no argument of this because where else do you see Muslims, Jews, Christian, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists and countless other sects.

Where else? Pretty much everywhere in the Western world, dude. Your freedom is not special... and honestly the way your politics are steeped in Christianity is pretty shocking to many foreigners. Seriously. I don't know the religions of most of my politicians, and I do not care. Nor should I, because their religion shouldn't factor in. The way American politics currently work, there is no way a non-Christian could become president. Something has to change with the political system, or socially, for a non-Christian to have a chance at all. I mean, imagine being a kid and knowing you'd never be president because your beliefs essentially excluded you.

And we're not "all Americans". I am not an American. I do not want to be an American. America is a terrible place where you have to pay money to get healthcare.

I have no idea why you came in here to say that, except to be intentionally confrontational. Or possibly to complain about people we have nothing to do with and have never met. Why are you here?

I have clearly made a series of assumptions and a few quick enemies in the process of one post. I do apologize for it and suppose I should leave the guild before worse things happen.....Perhaps I worded it wrong, posted in the wrong forum or several other things. I was just trying to get feed back and see what would happen.

I apologize on to everyone for what I have said and any negative feelings that has spawned from it. I acted hastily and should have found the right place to post and find the right people to talk with.  

[Morgandria]

caesar821

I have clearly made a series of assumptions and a few quick enemies in the process of one post. I do apologize for it and suppose I should leave the guild before worse things happen.....Perhaps I worded it wrong, posted in the wrong forum or several other things. I was just trying to get feed back and see what would happen.

I apologize on to everyone for what I have said and any negative feelings that has spawned from it. I acted hastily and should have found the right place to post and find the right people to talk with.

You don't have to leave. Just learn from what you've been given today. The tunnel vision and hubris the US has about its' presence in the world, and the assumptions its' government and citizens make on that basis, is one of its' primary problems with interacting with the rest of the world. Don't assume what seems obvious and highly important to one nation's people, will be to all nations and all peoples.  

[X-Yami-no-Ko-X]

caesar821

yes I completely agree that some people are totally close minded but that is not a reason to not try. There is always someone who agrees. perhaps the option is not to make a complete peace but to at least clear the air and make peace. I had a college professor that is a part of a group that harbors good relations with muslims and chiristians. why not have something like that? better to try and fail and learn for the next occasion then not try at all.

The thing about that is those are two Abrahamic religions. That's not the same as trying to piece together peace between say Catholics and Kemetics. While I was able to piece together a friendship with one Catholic and have wonderful conversations with another not all Catholics would accept my religion.  

[RedHairjoe]

Morgandria

caesar821

I have clearly made a series of assumptions and a few quick enemies in the process of one post. I do apologize for it and suppose I should leave the guild before worse things happen.....Perhaps I worded it wrong, posted in the wrong forum or several other things. I was just trying to get feed back and see what would happen.

I apologize on to everyone for what I have said and any negative feelings that has spawned from it. I acted hastily and should have found the right place to post and find the right people to talk with.

You don't have to leave. Just learn from what you've been given today. The tunnel vision and hubris the US has about its' presence in the world, and the assumptions its' government and citizens make on that basis, is one of its' primary problems with interacting with the rest of the world. Don't assume what seems obvious and highly important to one nation's people, will be to all nations and all peoples.

I did learn yes...and feel like a jackass for the disruption I've caused. I do live in America and do view things differently then a person outside the nation. I realize that and I was speaking what I felt.

I only meant to try and make peace but wow that seemed to have failed real quick....  

[RedHairjoe]

X-Yami-no-Ko-X

caesar821

yes I completely agree that some people are totally close minded but that is not a reason to not try. There is always someone who agrees. perhaps the option is not to make a complete peace but to at least clear the air and make peace. I had a college professor that is a part of a group that harbors good relations with muslims and chiristians. why not have something like that? better to try and fail and learn for the next occasion then not try at all.

The thing about that is those are two Abrahamic religions. That's not the same as trying to piece together peace between say Catholics and Kemetics. While I was able to piece together a friendship with one Catholic and have wonderful conversations with another not all Catholics would accept my religion.

Its a solid point and youre right. I just thought I could find enough people that think the same way. I'm optimistic and thought it would have gone over better.  

[Morgandria]

caesar821

I did learn yes...and feel like a jackass for the disruption I've caused. I do live in America and do view things differently then a person outside the nation. I realize that and I was speaking what I felt.

I only meant to try and make peace but wow that seemed to have failed real quick....

As I said before, some of us don't necessarily believe peace to be ideal. Peace is certainly safe and comfortable, but sometimes only strife and conflict can be the engine of change - especially if you're dealing with police states or other forms of totalitarianism.

Also, just because someone might vehemently argue with you, doesn't mean they hate you. They simply have an equal level of passion for an alternative point of view. There are no enemies here - and that you think disagreement makes them so might be another indication of the environment in which you've learned to think.  

[RedHairjoe]

Morgandria

caesar821

I did learn yes...and feel like a jackass for the disruption I've caused. I do live in America and do view things differently then a person outside the nation. I realize that and I was speaking what I felt.

I only meant to try and make peace but wow that seemed to have failed real quick....

As I said before, some of us don't necessarily believe peace to be ideal. Peace is certainly safe and comfortable, but sometimes only strife and conflict can be the engine of change - especially if you're dealing with police states or other forms of totalitarianism.

Also, just because someone might vehemently argue with you, doesn't mean they hate you. They simply have an equal level of passion for an alternative point of view. There are no enemies here - and that you think disagreement makes them so might be another indication of the environment in which you've learned to think.

well I didn't mean to say enemies in a negative way but I just didn't want to step on anyones toes and i thought the topic would have gone over better.

And I do agree for conflict against tyranny and injustice but there's also civil disobedience like King and Gandhi acted in. That was why I voice this concern in the first place civil disobedience against a group of people being forced into something

I have my own views and they have their. variety is the spice of life and all that