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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:57 am
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:34 am
All very good points.
Someone once pointed out one particular scene during the Tribulation that sealed the answer for me when I read it. The Beast will force every person to accept his mark in order to be allowed to buy, sell, or even work. A person who does not accept his number is not allowed to work (and is to be hunted and put to death).
Jesus said that when the rapture occurs, two men will be working in a field, and one will be taken, the other left. And again, two women grinding grain, one will be taken and the other left. Since those being taken would not have accepted the mark of the Beast, and those who did would not have been taken, it is logical that this occurs before that law is implemented. (Also, what Beast-worshiper would work together with a Christian and not turn that person in?)
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:31 am
Now for a question, which is probably one of the hardest any Christian can/ has attempted to answer:
Do you know somewhere I can look (aside from the Bible, lol; I mean as a Bible help) that succinctly tells the story of the events which take place before, during, and after the Tribulation, in as close to chronological order as possible? I have been trying to understand the events together as a whole, everything from what signs to look for, when and how the rapture occurs, the Psalm 83 war, the Gog-Magog war, the Beast and his number, and just everything until the Millennial Reign (and what is to happen during that period as well; who will be there, what they will do, etc.). Everywhere I look only focuses on one part at a time, and the other events are usually mentioned only briefly.
I guess I'm effectively asking for a non-fictional narrative version of the Left Behind series, lol. lol Not that I've finished reading it, but I suspect that was what it was meant to be.
Anyway, I'm guessing the best place I can look would be one website with a list of each topic and a link for each "story"; I sort of doubt that I will find a single web page which lists in proper detail, every single event in the best "chronological" order. And I know there will be a certain amount of speculation, of course (such as whether or not the "Prince of Rosh" truly refers to Russia becoming involved with the Gog-Magog war; I've heard arguments to both sides).
Whatever is the most complete and most accurate source, if you know where to find one.
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:35 am
edited to correct typo: "these* heavens pass away", not "new heavens pass away". Where to start... I guess I'll address the really significant points that stuck out for me: @ 8:32-9:05 Quote: "Christ takes the church out before the Great Tribulation period. In other words, the rapture must take place before the Great Tribulation. Now any other view, in my judgment, destroys the belief in the imminent coming of Christ for his church. For instance, if you say tonight that those things that are predicted for the Great Tribulation period must be fulfilled, then tonight I cannot look for Him to come, but I must look for these terrible events to take place first."
"Imminent" does not appear in the bible. So what exactly does he mean when he says that? That his return is forthcoming? impending? off in the future? on the horizon / off in the distance but will come? on the way? brewing? Because "imminent" can mean all those things. Imminent, by McGee's own admittance, doesn't necessarily mean "soon". And if Jesus' "imminent" return just refers to his return being off in the future, then who's to say that signs don't need to happen before his return? Who is defining imminent for us? There's nothing concrete, in scripture, telling us signs cannot happen (or that signs aren't required to happen) before his return.
McGee tried to draw parallels to Jesus birth, but even that had a sign (“This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger”). That was a sign given of the messiah. And later, when Jesus was just a little bit older, he'd say "49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked.“Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[f] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them." (I'm quoting from Luke 2 btw when he was still a kid). He gave signs. And in the latter example, it was a case of people just not perceiving them when he gave it. When he began his ministry as an adult? There were also signs accompanying that (Holy Spirit descending, voice from the clouds identifying Jesus as God's son) "16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son,whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” — Matthew 3:16-17.
Not to mention:
Quote: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV) 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Footnotes: a. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin
This attitude against "signs" happening before Jesus ever takes his people out from the planet is what's truly unbiblical. The Journey out of Exodus is riddled with signs (10 plagues, red sea parting, led by a pillar of cloud). The flood? Noah preached, Noah built an ark (which took a long process, all the sign those people needed really, but they kept partying). Since when does God not give signs and warnings before he starts acting against someone? or leading his people out of danger? This time won't be any different.
edit: I thought I mentioned this but apparently I didn't sweatdrop : regardless of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, everyone is looking forward to his return. The only difference is pre-tribber's are looking forward to avoiding the Great Tribulation; the mid- and post-tribbers think they'll be living through the Great Tribulation and are looking forward to his return so they can stop enduring tribulation and not ever have to endure God's wrath.
and when I ask, "where is this definition of 'imminent' coming from", I'm referring to the definition that says, "no prophecy must be fulfilled before he returns".
kind of a tangent: I'm almost half way into the video, but I'm suspecting he hasn't noticed the difference between tribulation and wrath yet.
@ 10:40, when he starts talking about Revelation 4: Hereafter / "Meta tauta", McGee says these "church things" are over as if scripture is making the claim that "the church will no longer exist on earth". That's a major leap in logic. Who's to say it was not simply a case of, "I'm done talking about the church on earth, shifting focus to what I saw next: what Jesus and the celestial beings are doing in Heaven"? What happens on earth is a copy of what's in Heaven: why does McGee assume that any mention of elders next to Jesus must be human? ergo, that they're raptured humans? Even in the case that they are human, why doesn't he go to the more logical candidates (people such as Enoch and Elijah who never died, Moses who even showed up at the transfiguration with Elijah talking to Jesus, or those "saints" / holy people who resurrected at the same time as Jesus (Matthew 27:51-53)? He has to skip so many more likelier scenarios to end up at the conclusion that "the believers on earth were taken to avoid tribulation".
More points to consider that take illogical leaps: @16:02-16:48, McGee said, Quote: "Anyone that's called out for any purpose, that's a church and you will find that Israel in the Wilderness is called a church in that connection; it's a very common expression, but it assumed the technical meaning as far as the New Testament is concerned. It was those that had been called out of this world who had trusted the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul put it like this: the preaching of the cross is to the Greek- it's foolishness; to the Jew, it's a stumbling block. But to the Jew and and the Greek that can see in that cross the power of God to salvation, then that cross becomes the mean of salvation and they are of the called out ones. You want to know who the elect are? Well, elect just happens to be those who trust Jesus Christ". Jude alludes that it was Jesus who led Moses and Israelites in the desert (Jude 1:4-5). If it's Jesus back in Moses time, just like it was Jesus during New Testament times, and thus calling out a people unto his name in both cases, then why is McGee trying to make a separation/distinction from Moses' day? Why is he making a distinction between how "church" is applied to the desert wanderings and that of the rest of the people mentioned in the New Testament? as if their "calling out" is somehow different from Christians? (the bit about the NT only using the term "technically" for Moses and the Israelites, but for us Christians it's something else), that it's not the same thing? Moses and the Israelites are a part of the Church of Jesus Christ. It's not just the group of people who've been called out in "these last 1900 years", but before then since it was Jesus leading them in the desert.
Going by McGee's definition of things: the "church" are the elect ones and they would've been raptured away already; then why does Jesus have to cut the tribulation short for the sake of the elect? again, if they have already been raptured away, what is there for the elect to "survive"?
Quote: Matthew 24:22 (NIV) “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Why are faithful believers in Jesus told that they need to have patient endurance?
Quote: Revelation 14:9-12 (NIV) 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Quote: Revelation 13:10 (NIV) "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed[a] with the sword, with the sword they will be killed[b ]." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people. Footnotes: a. Revelation 13:10 Some manuscripts anyone killsb. Revelation 13:10 Jer. 15:2
Quote: Revelation 12:17 (NIV) Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
If Jesus took them to be in the mansions already, there's nothing to "endure" on their part.
If Christians / the church are not here for the tribulation, then why the need to warn the church ("those who trust Jesus Christ", McGee's definition of "church") about taking the mark of the beast, if they won't be around to take it / risk taking it? Clearly, those who hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, staying loyal to him, are around during all of that; thus, their need to endure.
Next: @17:19-18:05 Quote: "And my friend, the minute that they leave this earth, they're no longer a called-out body. They're something else; they're seen here as 24 elders and at the end of the book we see the church coming down as the bride of Christ. And that is the picture Paul gives of it, that the church is to be presented as a bride to Christ. Husbands love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, what that he might wash it by the water of the word that he might cleanse it, he might sanctify it and present it to himself a church without spot and without wrinkle. And that's that church you see coming down from God out of Heaven. Under a different figure, not called a church now, but called a bride." He contradicts himself: McGee says that once the church is raptured, they are no longer a "called-out body" (so, they're no longer a "church") but then he says, "the church is presented as a bride to Christ". So, it still is a church, because it is the church, he says, that gets presented as a bride coming down from God (whether he knows it or not he's quoting from Revelation 21). He contradicts his own definitions. Do we or do we not remain a called-out body (a church)?
Also pay attention to the context by the time the holy city descends from God: it's on the new earth, in the new heavens (btw, it's a city, described as having dimensions, gates, doors; I doubt it's the believers). The previous chapters were describing tribulation, then the wrath on the unrepentant starting with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17), 1000 year reign of Christ (and thus the first resurrection of those who were decapitated for not taking the mark of the beast [these humans will reign alongside him] spoken of in Revelation 20) , Satan released again after the 1000 years (gets defeated also described in Revelation 20), Great White throne judgment (thus second resurrection and this earth and these heavens pass away, also described in Revelation 20). Only after all that do we get the description of the "bride" coming down in Rv 21 and again, it's a city, not the believers.
Quote: Revelation 21 (NIV)A New Heaven and a New Earth21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b ] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “ Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d] thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass. 22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Footnotes: a. Revelation 21:1 Isaiah 65:17 b. Revelation 21:4 Isaiah 25:8 c. Revelation 21:16 That is, about 1,400 miles or about 2,200 kilometers d. Revelation 21:17 That is, about 200 feet or about 65 meters e. Revelation 21:17 Or highf. Revelation 21:20 The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.
@ 18:06-16; 18:42-19:17; his remarks about the elders
Quote: And here we see it at- in 24 elders. Now the elders are representative, uh, elders represent [...] the elders of the church of the Open Door are the spiritual leaders of this church and the church is under their care. And that is true of any church. That has that kind- they're representative and you'll find in the word of God that they are representative. We'll have occasion to see that in a moment. Now somebody is going to say, but "are the 24 elders 'the church'?", Yes. "Well, why do you think so?". Well I think, first of all because of their position here, you find them here, they all have crowns on their heads and they're all sitting on thrones.
He says the elders are "representative" as if it were fact. He says "the Word of God" shows this, but it never explicitly does. What the Word of God does show is that God reigns with a council even in the Old Testament:
Quote: Psalm 82:1 (NIV) 1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
Quote: Psalm 89:6-7 (NIV) 6 For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord? Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings? 7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.
Would he suggest that God's council is made up of humans? of raptured Saints in the Old Testament too? They can't be human if God is pronouncing mortality as a curse on them / that they'll die like mortals (thus they weren't humans to begin with if their curse is to die like us):
Quote: Psalm 82:6-7 (NIV) 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
On the otherhand, there is mention of individuals literally sitting on thrones next to Jesus, not symbolic of the church elders, but of literal individuals, and those seats/places of authority are already assigned by the Father and you'll have to drink the same cup as Jesus to sit there (which means martyrdom, not raptured away):
Quote: Matthew 20:21-23 (NIV) 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.” 22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Quote: 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 (NIV) 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Quote: Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Footnotes: Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
At least McGee did make mention that the believers who overcome will be able to sit on God's throne, (@19:22-19:43, referring to Revelation 3), but it totally flew over his head that they had "something" to overcome. What is that "thing" that they have to overcome if not the tribulation? They make their robes white DURING the tribulation.
Quote: Revelation 7:14 (NIV) I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
He also makes another assumption: that God only ever promised us humans to sit on the throne. Again, if the Psalms in the Old Testament are talking about a council of heavenly beings which God sits in the midst of, heavenly beings, then it's not just us that you'll ever find sitting on seats/thrones next to God.
This man's approach is unstable. He likes to say the bible says something, spiritualizes what he thinks it is, and it must be that, using "soundbites" of verses to prove it, skipping whole chapters of details and ignores the explicit statements speaking contrary to his ideas. I'm 20 minutes in, and this post is getting pretty long, so I'll leave it there. If he's gotten so many fundamental details of scripture wrong, he's not going to come out at the right conclusion. edited
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:00 am
I know I already mentioned this in the other thread, but let me emphasize again that reading the Book of Revelation all in one go is really helpful, Revelation 20 especially brought a whole level of understanding on its own. But if you read the Book of Revelation in one go like I recommended, you'll end up reading it too.
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:12 am
real eyes realize I know I already mentioned this in the other thread, but let me emphasize again that reading the Book of Revelation all in one go is really helpful, Revelation 20 especially brought a whole level of understanding on its own. But if you read the Book of Revelation in one go like I recommended, you'll end up reading it too. Thank you for posting real eyes realize. ^^ I will try to respond when I have time. You bring up some good points.
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:19 am
I'll have to look this all over again later, but when he mentioned the "church" as those called out, then refers to the elders as the "church" I was under the impression that he was using that term because we are familiar with it; these are the people we here refer to/ know as the "church"... but I didn't fully understand what he was saying there at that point, so I'll look it over again later. Quote: f Jesus took them to be in the mansions already, there's nothing to "endure" on their part. If Christians / the church are not here for the tribulation, then why the need to warn the church ("those who trust in Jesus Christ") about taking the mark of the beast, if they won't be around to take it / risk taking it? Clearly, those who hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, staying loyal to him, are around during all of that; thus, their need to endure. It's been my understanding that the Bible was talking about two different sets of Christians/ believers here: those of us who already believe and are saved will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation, in order to avoid allowing us to suffer through the tribulation. After the rapture, the world will take notice that people have disappeared, and in their search for answers, many previous unbelievers will come to change their minds and believe. These would be the people He said need to "endure". However, He is also speaking directly to us, not because those of us today will experience the Tribulation, but because we are the ones who must pass the message along, and basically keep the Bible in print in as many forms as possible, paper, electronic-- the Internet will doubtless still be functioning by then. Just because, say, some of our children don't accept Christ as Savior now doesn't mean they won't remember our words and accept later; especially after everything hits the fan.
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:53 am
TS Sailor Cronus It's been my understanding that the Bible was talking about two different sets of Christians/ believers here: those of us who already believe and are saved will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation, in order to avoid allowing us to suffer through the tribulation. After the rapture, the world will take notice that people have disappeared, and in their search for answers, many previous unbelievers will come to change their minds and believe. These would be the people He said need to "endure". However, He is also speaking directly to us, not because those of us today will experience the Tribulation, but because we are the ones who must pass the message along, and basically keep the Bible in print in as many forms as possible, paper, electronic-- the Internet will doubtless still be functioning by then. Just because, say, some of our children don't accept Christ as Savior now doesn't mean they won't remember our words and accept later; especially after everything hits the fan. Oh, I'm aware that people say this, but I do not see the Bible saying this: I see the bible saying one group of people will die as martyrs, and then people who are still alive for when God's wrath begins, they will be those who are sealed with a mark on their foreheads by God's angel, and they will suffer no harm (from God's wrath) which is unleashed by the angels; thus, the angels told not to harm the trees, plants, etc... until that second group has been sealed. Those are the only two groups of believers I see: (A) martyred/dead or (B) still alive and sealed by God's mark. The martyrs, and then the start of wrath, is described in Revelation 6:9-17... Quote: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been. 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[b ] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[c] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Footnotes: a. Revelation 6:11 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 12:10; 19:10. b. Revelation 6:16 See Hosea 10:8. c. Revelation 6:17 Some manuscripts his...but that wrath doesn't start until the other group is sealed (Revelation 7): Quote: 1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. The Great Multitude in White Robes9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16 ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’[h] nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[j]”
Footnotes:
Revelation 7:16 Isaiah 49:10
Revelation 7:17 Isaiah 49:10
Revelation 7:17 Isaiah 25:8...and the reason we still see martyrs after that point is because, the seal of God only protects us against receiving wrath from God, not keeping us safe from the world's persecution/hatred of us. They'll keep killing us. And the bit about the sealed being from Israel: if we Gentiles already started being grafted-in to Israel during the time Paul wrote Romans 11, then repentant Gentiles are to be considered native-born Israelites. There's much less reason to distinguish between Gentile and Israelite by the time we get to the The Book of Revelation—which was a vision of the future given to John (as Revelation 1 reveals). Quote: Revelation 1:1-3 (NIV) 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. : BTW, this sealing of the survivors by a mark (of God) on their forehead has been done in the past, in Ezekiel 9 Ezekiel 9:1-11 (NIV)1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, “Bring near those who are appointed to execute judgment on the city, each with a weapon in his hand.” 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. 3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” 5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?” 9 He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see.’ 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done.” 11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, “I have done as you commanded.”
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:22 pm
Quote: Oh, I'm aware that people say this, but I do not see the Bible saying this: Remember when you suggested that I read the entire book of Revelations in one sitting? That is actually something I have done about three or four times in my life. This wasn't just information I took from other people; I came to these conclusions from reading the book of Revelations. I will admit that some of the details are still fuzzy, which is why I've been asking for help in understanding. (More to come; looking up something, and it takes a lot of cross-referencing.)
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:46 am
This is all so very interesting. I haven't personally read the entire book of Revelations [just a few verses here and there] but I am planning to in one go. I have been confused, as well, as to us being taken up with the Lord before the Tribulation begins. I wonder when the "taken up with the Lord" is supposed to happen [before what and after what takes place]. Thank you real eyes realize for shedding light onto this topic.
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:45 am
Hello emotion_bigheart I'm a little confused as to the question of..if we are secured in Christ in that: Quote: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9 , will we thrown into the lake of fire if we were to receive the mark of the beast say.. in the form of a chip for example that deals with currency and acts like a credit card for everything but still believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus up from the dead and declare with our mouths that Jesus is Lord? Because I noticed the verse in Revelations where it says: Quote: 9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12 so in short, are we still secured in Christ if we declare Him as our Lord and believe He has been raised from the dead yet still have the mark of the beast? [not that I want to have the mark of the beast, I am just a bit confused as to the salvation of ones soul regarding this matter]
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:17 am
real eyes realize Where to start... I guess I'll address the really significant points that stuck out for me: @ 8:32-9:05 Quote: "Christ takes the church out before the Great Tribulation period. In other words, the rapture must take place before the Great Tribulation. Now any other view, in my judgment, destroys the belief in the imminent coming of Christ for his church. For instance, if you say tonight that those things that are predicted for the Great Tribulation period must be fulfilled, then tonight I cannot look for Him to come, but I must look for these terrible events to take place first."
"Imminent" does not appear in the bible. So what exactly does he mean when he says that? That his return is forthcoming? impending? off in the future? on the horizon / off in the distance but will come? on the way? brewing? Because "imminent" can mean all those things. Imminent, by McGee's own admittance, doesn't necessarily mean "soon". And if Jesus' "imminent" return just refers to his return being off in the future, then who's to say that signs don't need to happen before his return? Who is defining imminent for us? There's nothing concrete, in scripture, telling us signs cannot happen (or that signs aren't required to happen) before his return.
McGee tried to draw parallels to Jesus birth, but even that had a sign (“This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger”). That was a sign given of the messiah. And later, when Jesus was just a little bit older, he'd say "49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked.“Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[f] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them." (I'm quoting from Luke 2 btw when he was still a kid). He gave signs. And in the latter example, it was a case of people just not perceiving them when he gave it. When he began his ministry as an adult? There were also signs accompanying that (Holy Spirit descending, voice from the clouds identifying Jesus as God's son) "16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son,whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” — Matthew 3:16-17.
Not to mention:
Quote: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV) 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Footnotes: a. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin
This attitude against "signs" happening before Jesus ever takes his people out from the planet is what's truly unbiblical. The Journey out of Exodus is riddled with signs (10 plagues, red sea parting, led by a pillar of cloud). The flood? Noah preached, Noah built an ark (which took a long process, all the sign those people needed really, but they kept partying). Since when does God not give signs and warnings before he starts acting against someone? or leading his people out of danger? This time won't be any different.
edit: I thought I mentioned this but apparently I didn't sweatdrop : regardless of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, everyone is looking forward to his return. The only difference is pre-tribber's are looking forward to avoiding the Great Tribulation; the mid- and post-tribbers think they'll be living through the Great Tribulation and are looking forward to his return so they can stop enduring tribulation and not ever have to endure God's wrath.
and when I ask, "where is this definition of 'imminent' coming from", I'm referring to the definition that says, "no prophecy must be fulfilled before he returns".
kind of a tangent: I'm almost half way into the video, but I'm suspecting he hasn't noticed the difference between tribulation and wrath yet.
@ 10:40, when he starts talking about Revelation 4: Hereafter / "Meta tauta", McGee says these "church things" are over as if scripture is making the claim that "the church will no longer exist on earth". That's a major leap in logic. Who's to say it was not simply a case of, "I'm done talking about the church on earth, shifting focus to what I saw next: what Jesus and the celestial beings are doing in Heaven"? What happens on earth is a copy of what's in Heaven: why does McGee assume that any mention of elders next to Jesus must be human? ergo, that they're raptured humans? Even in the case that they are human, why doesn't he go to the more logical candidates (people such as Enoch and Elijah who never died, Moses who even showed up at the transfiguration with Elijah talking to Jesus, or those "saints" / holy people who resurrected at the same time as Jesus (Matthew 27:51-53)? He has to skip so many more likelier scenarios to end up at the conclusion that "the believers on earth were taken to avoid tribulation".
More points to consider that take illogical leaps: @16:02-16:48, McGee said, Quote: "Anyone that's called out for any purpose, that's a church and you will find that Israel in the Wilderness is called a church in that connection; it's a very common expression, but it assumed the technical meaning as far as the New Testament is concerned. It was those that had been called out of this world who had trusted the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul put it like this: the preaching of the cross is to the Greek- it's foolishness; to the Jew, it's a stumbling block. But to the Jew and and the Greek that can see in that cross the power of God to salvation, then that cross becomes the mean of salvation and they are of the called out ones. You want to know who the elect are? Well, elect just happens to be those who trust Jesus Christ". Jude alludes that it was Jesus who led Moses and Israelites in the desert (Jude 1:4-5). If it's Jesus back in Moses time, just like it was Jesus during New Testament times, and thus calling out a people unto his name in both cases, then why is McGee trying to make a separation/distinction from Moses' day? Why is he making a distinction between how "church" is applied to the desert wanderings and that of the rest of the people mentioned in the New Testament? as if their "calling out" is somehow different from Christians? (the bit about the NT only using the term "technically" for Moses and the Israelites, but for us Christians it's something else), that it's not the same thing? Moses and the Israelites are a part of the Church of Jesus Christ. It's not just the group of people who've been called out in "these last 1900 years", but before then since it was Jesus leading them in the desert.
Going by McGee's definition of things: the "church" are the elect ones and they would've been raptured away already; then why does Jesus have to cut the tribulation short for the sake of the elect? again, if they have already been raptured away, what is there for the elect to "survive"?
Quote: Matthew 24:22 (NIV) “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Why are faithful believers in Jesus told that they need to have patient endurance?
Quote: Revelation 14:9-12 (NIV) 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Quote: Revelation 13:10 (NIV) "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed[a] with the sword, with the sword they will be killed[b ]." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people. Footnotes: a. Revelation 13:10 Some manuscripts anyone killsb. Revelation 13:10 Jer. 15:2
Quote: Revelation 12:17 (NIV) Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
If Jesus took them to be in the mansions already, there's nothing to "endure" on their part.
If Christians / the church are not here for the tribulation, then why the need to warn the church ("those who trust Jesus Christ", McGee's definition of "church") about taking the mark of the beast, if they won't be around to take it / risk taking it? Clearly, those who hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, staying loyal to him, are around during all of that; thus, their need to endure.
Next: @17:19-18:05 Quote: "And my friend, the minute that they leave this earth, they're no longer a called-out body. They're something else; they're seen here as 24 elders and at the end of the book we see the church coming down as the bride of Christ. And that is the picture Paul gives of it, that the church is to be presented as a bride to Christ. Husbands love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, what that he might wash it by the water of the word that he might cleanse it, he might sanctify it and present it to himself a church without spot and without wrinkle. And that's that church you see coming down from God out of Heaven. Under a different figure, not called a church now, but called a bride." He contradicts himself: McGee says that once the church is raptured, they are no longer a "called-out body" (so, they're no longer a "church") but then he says, "the church is presented as a bride to Christ". So, it still is a church, because it is the church, he says, that gets presented as a bride coming down from God (whether he knows it or not he's quoting from Revelation 21). He contradicts his own definitions. Do we or do we not remain a called-out body (a church)?
Also pay attention to the context by the time the holy city descends from God: it's on the new earth, in the new heavens (btw, it's a city, described as having dimensions, gates, doors; I doubt it's the believers). The previous chapters were describing tribulation, then the wrath on the unrepentant starting with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17), 1000 year reign of Christ (and thus the first resurrection of those who were decapitated for not taking the mark of the beast [these humans will reign alongside him] spoken of in Revelation 20) , Satan released again after the 1000 years (gets defeated also described in Revelation 20), Great White throne judgment (thus second resurrection and this earth and new heavens pass away, also described in Revelation 20). Only after all that do we get the description of the "bride" coming down in Rv 21 and again, it's a city, not the believers.
Quote: Revelation 21 (NIV)A New Heaven and a New Earth21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b ] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “ Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d] thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass. 22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Footnotes: a. Revelation 21:1 Isaiah 65:17 b. Revelation 21:4 Isaiah 25:8 c. Revelation 21:16 That is, about 1,400 miles or about 2,200 kilometers d. Revelation 21:17 That is, about 200 feet or about 65 meters e. Revelation 21:17 Or highf. Revelation 21:20 The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.
@ 18:06-16; 18:42-19:17; his remarks about the elders
Quote: And here we see it at- in 24 elders. Now the elders are representative, uh, elders represent [...] the elders of the church of the Open Door are the spiritual leaders of this church and the church is under their care. And that is true of any church. That has that kind- they're representative and you'll find in the word of God that they are representative. We'll have occasion to see that in a moment. Now somebody is going to say, but "are the 24 elders 'the church'?", Yes. "Well, why do you think so?". Well I think, first of all because of their position here, you find them here, they all have crowns on their heads and they're all sitting on thrones.
He says the elders are "representative" as if it were fact. He says "the Word of God" shows this, but it never explicitly does. What the Word of God does show is that God reigns with a council even in the Old Testament:
Quote: Psalm 82:1 (NIV) 1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
Quote: Psalm 89:6-7 (NIV) 6 For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord? Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings? 7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.
Would he suggest that God's council is made up of humans? of raptured Saints in the Old Testament too? They can't be human if God is pronouncing mortality as a curse on them / that they'll die like mortals (thus they weren't humans to begin with if their curse is to die like us):
Quote: Psalm 82:6-7 (NIV) 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
On the otherhand, there is mention of individuals literally sitting on thrones next to Jesus, not symbolic of the church elders, but of literal individuals, and those seats/places of authority are already assigned by the Father and you'll have to drink the same cup as Jesus to sit there (which means martyrdom, not raptured away):
Quote: Matthew 20:21-23 (NIV) 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.” 22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Quote: 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 (NIV) 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Quote: Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Footnotes: Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
At least McGee did make mention that the believers who overcome will be able to sit on God's throne, (@19:22-19:43, referring to Revelation 3), but it totally flew over his head that they had "something" to overcome. What is that "thing" that they have to overcome if not the tribulation? They make their robes white DURING the tribulation.
Quote: Revelation 7:14 (NIV) I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
He also makes another assumption: that God only ever promised us humans to sit on the throne. Again, if the Psalms in the Old Testament are talking about a council of heavenly beings which God sits in the midst of, heavenly beings, then it's not just us that you'll ever find sitting on seats/thrones next to God.
This man's approach is unstable. He likes to say the bible says something, spiritualizes what he thinks it is, and it must be that, using "soundbites" of verses to prove it, skipping whole chapters of details and ignores the explicit statements speaking contrary to his ideas. I'm 20 minutes in, and this post is getting pretty long, so I'll leave it there. If he's gotten so many fundamental details of scripture wrong, he's not going to come out at the right conclusion. edited I have a question or two. I hope you don't mind. In 2 Thessalonians 2 - 9 we read that the Antichrist will be powered by Satan so to speak, but is the strong delusion that people will experience because they did not receive the love of the truth an inability to see through the Antichrists claims of divinity? If that is so is God punishing people by allowing them to believe in the lies of the Antichrist? 2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.You said DURING the tribulation. Did you mean that part of their cleaning of their robes is due to going through the tribulation? Just making sure we don't misunderstand one another. Revelation 7:14 (NIV)
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.They made them white in the blood of the lamb while they were in the great tribulation. That imply that they started believing in Jesus during the tribulation? The overcoming is keeping to the commandments of Christ, and his testimony through the tribulation, but not necessarily that they believed before entering into the Tribulation? I enjoyed reading your comments on the video. They are always insightful. What are your thoughts on allowing yourself to watch videos where the preacher doesn't get the rapture right? Do you think there is any value to for example a video like this, if the teacher gets the timing of the rapture wrong? Is it essential when teaching prophecy to get this right? Should it come with a big warning sticker? Do you think there is any danger for a Christian not knowing if he will have to endure the tribulation of if he will be rapture in advance? On Tribulation or Wrath. I think that is something most Christians have trouble with. How to separate tribulation from wrath. I know for myself that this is kind of vague. Would you mind expounding on the subject? Are there any verses indicating that the Tribulation is not part of God's judgement or wrath?
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:56 pm
TS Sailor Cronus Quote: Oh, I'm aware that people say this, but I do not see the Bible saying this: Remember when you suggested that I read the entire book of Revelations in one sitting? That is actually something I have done about three or four times in my life. This wasn't just information I took from other people; I came to these conclusions from reading the book of Revelations. I will admit that some of the details are still fuzzy, which is why I've been asking for help in understanding. (More to come; looking up something, and it takes a lot of cross-referencing.) Well, however it is that you arrived at that conclusion / why you believe that, I'll look at it open-mindedly. If I—you, we, any of us—notice a verse that suggests differently, however, that will be something to further examine. --- Spirit Reborn so in short, are we still secured in Christ if we declare Him as our Lord and believe He has been raised from the dead yet still have the mark of the beast? [not that I want to have the mark of the beast, I am just a bit confused as to the salvation of ones soul regarding this matter] The very nature of falling for the beast suggests the person didn't know Christ nor the Father to begin with—or has rejected them / the truth of scripture. For example, something that I see brewing: I've been noticing a lot of talk about 3D printers for the use of printing humans / printing living human body parts [ 3D Printing PEOPLE: Human Kidneys, Bionic Ears, & Hearts] (edit: @2:06-2:12 might be sexually provocative to some; avert your eyes or click out, the video is practically over), printing food so we don't have to slaughter animals [ Your Meat Is Being Printed], and also creating babies outside of wombs with the use of an "artificial uterus"[ Artificial uterus births healthy shark babies: is a human version just over the horizon?]. If that continues and becomes common place, especially with the New Age beliefs gaining popularity within recent decades (that "all" life is sacred, even rocks and grass which biblically are not "alive"), then it is very likely that the beast (the future union of nations headed by the lawless man) will outlaw the eating of any and all animals because it's archaic, primitive, not efficient, irresponsible, violates the "sanctity of life of the animals" and prohibit marriage/families too because it's archaic, primitive, not efficient, irresponsible, violates the "sanctity of human life" since there's no guarantee you'll raise your children right anyway, too many orphans, let's eliminate all those problems: no more marriage, no more traditional family structure, no more killing animals for food. If we need more humans, we'll birth them in an artificial uterus; if we need more food, we'll print it; lost a body part? it's okay, let's print out another one. A person going along with them, supporting their stance, seeing nothing wrong with it, suggests to me that the person never believed Jesus / the Word of God / anything in the scriptures, even if professing some superficial belief in Jesus, because such things were warned against: Quote: 1 Timothy 4:3 (NIV) 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. ...so how can a professing Christian ever support "stop procreating it isn't right; the ethical choice is for us as a species to use an artificial uterus and have no more families", "stop eating animals, it isn't right; instead, have some synthetic meat, it's far better and instantaneous, no animals killed in the process"?. Prohibiting the slaughter of animals is something that I see strong potential for right now. People are debating whether to treat pets as equal to humans under the law in the USA [ Should Pets Be Considered People?]; in Bolivia, it is already law to consider all nature as equal to human beings [ Bolivian Law Grants Nature Equal Rights With Humans], so not just pets, but all animals, all of nature, thus including plants too. It's known as the Ley de Derechos de la Madre Tierra in Spanish / the "Law of the Rights of Mother Earth" in English. If that is the case, that could easily blur the line between "murdering" an animal vs eating an animal / "murdering" a plant vs eating a plant for food because "the right to life and the right to exist" applies to animals and plants as a part of that law). Plants aren't alive according to the bible :l and animals are not equal to humans in the bible, much less plants. Believers who see nothing unbiblical/ungodly about what's going on here, are not very aware of what scripture says. By their actions and what they agree with, they're denying the statements in the bible which speak contrary to such perspectives. They have stopped believing the Word of God or they never really entered into the truth proclaimed by Jesus / his Father, the prophets, the apostles. So when the world starts acting contrary to said truth, they could most certainly take the mark of the beast (charmed because it "appears philanthropic" or "beneficial to mankind" and they have totally forgotten what's written; "isn't it God's will to preserve the sanctity of all life?" - I've actually heard that "sanctity of all life" thing from fellow "Christians"). If you noticed, at least three of the articles I've linked to come from Care2: that charity website hides behind a face of philanthropy, but it has anti-christ spirit all within it. Not surprisingly: they worship creation instead of Creator. Anyone posting a biblical stance in the gay marriage portion of the site will get vehemently attacked; I've even gotten, "she's just quoting out of the book of hate", "don't worry, they'll all die off", of course not so tame in word choice. Some of those hateful replies coming from people claiming to be the "children of Christian pastors" and who "know their bible". At times, I've questioned whether to stop following the site because I can't stand some of the things they support, but it certainly keeps me up to date on what the anti-Christ spirit is up to. And they're not trying paint themselves as lambs so it's very easy to detect what's off. At the end of the day, it's exactly like the people whom God saved out of Egypt: some stopped believing the words of their God along the way—they stopped believing in his promises, his prophecies and his ability to provide—so they perished; God didn't allow them to enter the promised land. It's going to be the same thing for us. Romans 10:9 you quoted is talking about a sincere profession of faith (thus "believing in your heart" because out of that sincere belief comes a genuine profession from your lips); in scripture we also have a lot of insincere lip service from people who don't believe in their hearts: Quote: Mark 7:6-8 (NIV) 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘ These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[a] 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” Footnotes: a. Mark 7:7 Isaiah 29:13
Quote: Jeremiah 12:2 (NIV) 2 You have planted them, and they have taken root; they grow and bear fruit. You are always on their lips but far from their hearts.
Quote: Titus 1:16 (NIV) They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
& if we deny him... Quote: 2 Timothy 2:12 (NIV) 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Quote: Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
"Believing" in Jesus is so much more than an abstract idea of believing that he exists and merely saying you believe in Him; it requires believing what he said and what he warned against, for real. If we're truly born-again, having been given a new nature, the law written on our minds and on our hearts, and thus have renewed our mind with his teachings, having both the Father and the Son, serving the law / slaves to the law in our minds (like Paul in Romans 7:25), then there are just certain things we will avoid like the plague (anything that speaks against his Word or commands; if it can be corrected, we correct it, otherwise we separate from such people). Then, there are certain things we can't help but be moved to do (speak his Word, lol). Quote: 1 Corinthians 9:16 (NIV) 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! Quote: Deuteronomy 6:6-8 (NIV) 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Anything speaking contrary to a single command spoken by God raises red flags to a person like that. Taking the mark of the beast by mistake, for such a person, will be difficult to do. --- Garland-Green I have a question or two. I hope you don't mind. In 2 Thessalonians 2 - 9 we read that the Antichrist will be powered by Satan so to speak, but is the strong delusion that people will experience because they did not receive the love of the truth an inability to see through the Antichrists claims of divinity? Yes. Once they reject the truth, they've chosen to walk the path of deception. They refused what would keep them safe from it / what would expose the deception for the deception that it is: which is a nice-sounding, appealing-to-the-five-senses lie that leads to your destruction. Their hostility towards God, his law, and his warnings through his prophets, his Son and his Son's disciples is what renders them incapable of seeing through the anti-christs' true nature. Garland-Green If that is so is God punishing people by allowing them to believe in the lies of the Antichrist? Yes to your second question too: it is "God punishing them" in the sense of how he hands us over to a reprobate mind (which Pauls describes in Romans 1). It can also be described as God allowing them to "enjoy" what they were asking for: not Him, but someone else, who doesn't actually have their well-being in mind (despite claiming to), who denies all of His commands, prophets' actual words, Jesus's actual words and the apostles' actual words. As we can tell from the false prophets in scripture, they say things that sound comforting and good, but leads to destruction, not just because it's a lie, but because everything God says/reveals is actually for our own good, so to act opposite of that is to walk towards death, not life. Contrasted to God's actual prophets who were warning of doom and gloom before we ever reach paradise, the false prophets are all about we can enter paradise right now, let's live it, without the God of Israel and his "hateful" law that shouldn't be on your heart, hate it. Garland-Green You said DURING the tribulation. Did you mean that part of their cleaning of their robes is due to going through the tribulation? Just making sure we don't misunderstand one another. Revelation 7:14 (NIV)
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They made them white in the blood of the lamb while they were in the great tribulation. That imply that they started believing in Jesus during the tribulation? The overcoming is keeping to the commandments of Christ, and his testimony through the tribulation, but not necessarily that they believed before entering into the Tribulation? I'm sure that out of those who go through the great tribulation, there will be those who didn't believe in Jesus beforehand. But I'm thoroughly convinced some will have already been believers in Christ as they go through tribulation (thus their being sealed prior to wrath starting in verses 1-3 of that same chapter): someone has to explain to the unrepentant / ignorant of scripture what's going on, the prophecies being fulfilled, to get them to believe and repent before the Two Witnesses ever show up (4 chapters later). But yes, I would say it's because of the tribulation in the first place that some people ever get to that step of washing their robes. For some people—the really stubborn/complacent—it's only when troubling times come that they'll ever turn to God and seek a believer to explain the bible to them. When faced with death, seeing prophecies come to life, having them explained by actual believers in the midst of all this, they'll wash their robes then for sure. Garland-Green What are your thoughts on allowing yourself to watch videos where the preacher doesn't get the rapture right? Do you think there is any value to for example a video like this, if the teacher gets the timing of the rapture wrong? Is it essential when teaching prophecy to get this right? Should it come with a big warning sticker? Do you think there is any danger for a Christian not knowing if he will have to endure the tribulation of if he will be rapture in advance? There is value in the sense that it provides an opportunity to correct error (both of the preacher who is in error and anyone who is believing his theories) as long as dialogue is possible. In general, listening to videos with error in it feel like some prickling battling experience than "a refreshing feed/drink". The ones containing error feel like the former; the ones in sound doctrine are the latter. For the rapture in particular, the dangers I could foresee for teaching that it comes before the tribulation, when it turns out to not happen before the tribulation, but the gathering to Christ happening during or after, is: first, we lose credibility / hurt YHWH's reputation when it doesn't happen like we taught. Say the rapture happens after the tribulation has already started (akin to what mid- or post-tribulation rapture theories hold to), but the majority believes pre-trib during this time, which means Christians are suffering, getting decapitated, starving to death even though we were preaching that isn't going to happen to us Christians who believe in Jesus; such a thing will be met with thoughts/responses like, "I thought you were going to be raptured; you Christians know nothing" OR "your prophecies are lies since you said you were going to be raptured and it didn't happen; where's your Jesus now? come join us, there's enough food over there, let's go take the mark" (lol). Thus hurting their chances of repenting sooner rather than later because they think we were wrong. That's a big reason why people are so hostile about God and his testimony, at least for me it was that; no one could explain it right. Christians passing on false prophecies, saying certain things would happen ascribing them to the bible, then they wouldn't happen. I did not know how to detect real from fake Christian because I was just a kid who didn't know the bible.
My one friend in middle school mentioned the mark of the beast (the rapture didn't enter the conversation), but it's because of that conversation that I entertained in my mind, for the very first time ever, that comfort, convenience and survival wasn't the most important thing. And if the mark of the beast ends up being, or including, an RFID chip system like they have for cows (or something similar), then I thought it didn't matter if it would enable me to speak all the languages in the world or provide instant / automated service for everything in society for free, no money—or be the only way I could access services—I still would not take it. A tangent on the cows: lol that they're getting milked automatically whenever the cow feels like it (ATL System for Cows | With Farm Robotics, the Cows Decide When It’s Milking Time). And it functions on RFID. Notice the ethical appeal "letting the cow decide", "to treat each animal as an individual" lol, as if they were on par with people.
secondly, some believers could stop taking a good hard look at what society is doing, since their only focus is, "I'm getting raptured; I don't have to deal with the consequences of what you guys are doing; you all are lost anyway". "Tribulation is for you not me"; they're not thinking about sticking around for the tribulation to teach people the whole Word of God, nor are they thinking of dying for what they believe in: proving their loyalty belongs to God—not to life / money / food / animals / nothing else in creation—beyond any doubt.
third, people could renounce the faith: they thought something was going to happen, it didn't happen," oh no, Christ was just a fable just like the atheists said". Of course this is more applicable to the people who wholeheartedly believed one false interpretation (or were ignorant of any other stance). Especially susceptible to this renouncement of faith are the little believers, not just little kids, but anyone who just never dug deep into the bible. But aside from that, I don't know what else in particular our belief in the timing of the rapture could affect (not that the three or so I just mentioned aren't significant reasons, I just can't think of anything else besides:
[1] holding people back from repenting due to erroneous testimony hurting our own credibility,
[2] complacency, unpreparedness, failing to identify the lawless man and the mark of the beast when the time comes, thus misleading others into accepting the mark
[3] renouncing faith in God/scripture when things don't turn out the way they thought it was going to or the way their parents told them it was going to.
Garland-Green On Tribulation or Wrath. I think that is something most Christians have trouble with. How to separate tribulation from wrath. I know for myself that this is kind of vague. Would you mind expounding on the subject? Are there any verses indicating that the Tribulation is not part of God's judgement or wrath? The distinction, again would have to be Revelation 6, once the sixth seal is opened: that's when wrath (great tribulation) starts. Prior to that, the chapter was describing just tribulation (not great tribulation). Looking at it that way, I'm leaning towards the stance that says tribulation started during the times of the disciples who walked with Jesus: they were handed over to persecution, their own Jewish people would betray them for believing in Christ, where rumors of war (and actual war) happened ever since then, famines have happened since then (literal lack of food and spiritual ["lack of biblical food"]) and those birth pangs are only going to get worse (thus the comparison to birth pangs in the first place: not that I can speak from personal experience, but I've heard that contractions come in waves, and they get stronger, and stronger until—tada! Son appears!) Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 have a lot of similar elements (famine, war, believers persecuted to death, and the mention of wrath/great tribulation, NIV/KJV respectively). I think we're waiting for the sixth seal to be opened (where it mentions wrath starts, and those islands and mountains begin shifting their places; I'm actually wondering if we may be in the process of seeing it opened up because I keep hearing about islands popping up, one off the coast of Japan, another off the coast of Pakistan, yet another in Germany, and earthquakes happening more frequently, but I haven't come across news of mountains moving [though it could totally be happening and I haven't noticed yet / read the news]; unless, that's referring to reigns/nations/countries in the sense of "government powers" shifting, but it does still sound like literal mountains and islands are promised to move, and all of them, not just some popping up here and there), Quote: Revelation 6:12-17 (NIV) 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[a] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[b] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Footnotes: a. Revelation 6:16 See Hosea 10:8. b. Revelation 6:17 Some manuscripts his
...though sometimes I wonder, "just how dramatic am I expecting it to be?". If I'm expecting too much, and turns out to be nothing beyond a news report, no boom no special effects, then I won't perceive it. But clearly it has to be something dramatic if people are running and hiding into caves and mountains. That said, I would define "tribulation"(the "great tribulation" too) as a time of testing for everyone: (A) to test/prove the believer's loyalty to God,
(B) to lead some into becoming believers so they wash their robes
(C) to lead some away from the faith because they were lukewarm and never loved Him wholeheartedly
(D) to give the unrepentant a chance to prove where their loyalties lie as well (their loyalty to sin, not God). After tribulation, birth pangs increase all the more, culminating into the "great tribulation" as the KJV translates more often (though the NIV did translate it as "great tribulation" for Rv 7, the KJV more consistently translates wrath/great tribulation as "great tribulation" than the NIV); that "great tribulation" is mentioned in Matthew 24:21 KJV (9 verses before Jesus returns in the clouds) and again in Revelation 7:14 (a whole 12 chapters before Jesus appears riding on a white horse in Revelation 19:11). Some saints purify their robes during wrath/great tribulation, as mentioned in Revelation 7, falls in line with wrath/great tribulation starting in Revelation 6, at the sixth seal. Some received their white robes prior to that at the fifth seal, dying as martyrs. It's also the "great tribulation" that God promised the unrepentant in Revelation 2:22 KJV). I think the confusion is because of the different translations: what the KJV translates as "great tribulation" more consistently sticks to that, though the newer versions switch up the terms, like the NIV, which don't translate it using the same consistent term, at the same rate—a side-by-side comparison of Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14When God's wrath/great tribulation time comes, only the unrepentant will suffer its effects. The verses that helped me distinguish " those receiving wrath" from " those who do not receive wrath": Quote: Romans 2:5-8 (NIV) 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Footnotes: Romans 2:6 Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12
Quote: Colossians 3:5-10 (NIV) 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Footnotes: Colossians 3:6 Some early manuscripts coming on those who are disobedient
Quote: 1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NIV) 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Quote: 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV) 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote: Revelation 2:22 (KJV) 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Quote: Revelation 3:10 (NIV) 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
***a note on Rv 3:10 - I can't tell if this is wrath/great tribulation or not, but compared to what his threat to the unrepentant in Rv 2:22, I want to say yes? also seeing as "endure patiently" gets repeated to the saints in Revelation 12, 13, and 14, six to eight chapters after wrath/great tribulation started.
...and, of course, Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 9 which I mentioned above, in my previous post: God sends an angel to put the seal of God on us so we don't suffer His wrath/great tribulation. The sixth seal opening, thus allowing wrath/great tribulation to come upon earth, having already been opened by Revelation 6 and the angels saying wait until we seal God's servants to start it in Rv 7: Quote: Revelation 7:1-3 (NIV) 1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
Quote: Ezekiel 9:4-6 (NIV) 4 and said to him, “ Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” 5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.
Quote: Revelation 9:4-5 (NIV) 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
So, in a nutshell: - tribulation, we're in it. - great tribulation (God's wrath) is something only the unrepentant will suffer the effects of starting at seal six of Revelation 6. That said, I've read nothing that suggests we're still free from dying at the hands of the enemy if we're still alive during wrath/great tribulation (though we don't die directly from the trumpets, bowls, etc..). Knowing that by Revelation 11, five chapters after wrath started at the sixth seal, the Two Witnesses get martyred [but resurrect after three days] should be evidence of that, in addition to the saints who were told to endure patiently through all this as the dragon comes after them). I hope this all made sense. emotion_sweatdrop edited to add Revelation 9
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:30 am
TS Sailor Cronus Now for a question, which is probably one of the hardest any Christian can/ has attempted to answer: Do you know somewhere I can look (aside from the Bible, lol; I mean as a Bible help) that succinctly tells the story of the events which take place before, during, and after the Tribulation, in as close to chronological order as possible? I have been trying to understand the events together as a whole, everything from what signs to look for, when and how the rapture occurs, the Psalm 83 war, the Gog-Magog war, the Beast and his number, and just everything until the Millennial Reign (and what is to happen during that period as well; who will be there, what they will do, etc.). Everywhere I look only focuses on one part at a time, and the other events are usually mentioned only briefly. I guess I'm effectively asking for a non-fictional narrative version of the Left Behind series, lol. lol Not that I've finished reading it, but I suspect that was what it was meant to be. Anyway, I'm guessing the best place I can look would be one website with a list of each topic and a link for each "story"; I sort of doubt that I will find a single web page which lists in proper detail, every single event in the best "chronological" order. And I know there will be a certain amount of speculation, of course (such as whether or not the "Prince of Rosh" truly refers to Russia becoming involved with the Gog-Magog war; I've heard arguments to both sides). Whatever is the most complete and most accurate source, if you know where to find one. I have not come across any sources - webpages or books like that, at least that I would recommend. Anyone else?
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:47 am
--Redacted, based on a misunderstanding. Sorry for confusion.--
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