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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:26 pm
Hello, everyone!
I know you haven't seen me around here before, but I am a new member of your guild. I've been hoping to find somebody I can confide in and ask advice of; I don't want to let my immediate family down, nor do I want my close church friends to know and be let down by me, so I have told nobody about this before.
I have been so depressed lately that it is unreal. I haven't felt this way in a long time, and it seems like mostly it's my fault. My family and I are going through a really large storm, so naturally times are going to be tough right now. I have faith that everything is going to work out A-okay, though!
My problem is myself. You see, back in November/December, my ex-boyfriend and I went a little further than we should have, multiple times. Sometimes I would be okay with it; other times I would feel guilty and condemned. During those times, in the back of my mind I knew it was wrong and I kept asking God to forgive me, but at the same time I was curious and wanted to see what would happen and did nothing to stop it even though I knew I should and God was not pleased with it.
I feel terrible about it; the other day at work I was reading about how God had rejected Saul because of his consistent pattern of disobedience to Him. I recognized that this was a consistent pattern of disobedience in my own life. The first time I did this I wasn't even saved, I was a backslider, but this second time I've fully confessed to be a Christian, even while knowingly sinning. Christians aren't supposed to act that way; it hurt my witness to my ex-boyfriend because he wasn't fully committed to Christ, and it's hurt my relationship with my God more than I can say.
I regret this so much. I keep asking for God to forgive me, but I still feel dirty and ashamed of myself. I am afraid of God rejecting me like He rejected Saul. I'm also afraid of God taking me back and restoring me to Himself, and then turning around and doing the same thing over again. In the back of my mind I hear that little voice saying, "You said last time after God saved you that you would never do it again; look at what you did. You did it again. What makes you think that you'll hold up better next time?"
I'm weak, spiritually, and I need advice and help.
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:52 am
I've been where you are; I'll freely admit it. That little voice whispering in the back of your mind is Satan trying to get you to admit to yourself that you aren't good enough or worthy enough of Jesus' love.
1 Peter 5:8 - International Standard Version
"Be clear-minded and alert. Your opponent, the devil, is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour."
However, the good thing, is that once you give your life to Christ, nothing can take you out of His hand, even if you slide back into sin, even if you feel yourself unworthy.
John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
You aren't the first to feel the struggle against Satan's touch and voice, nor will you be the last. As Christians, we all struggle against it and we all seek to spread Christ's light against Satan's darkness.
You are inseparable from God's love and are protected by the very hand of God. Yet still another verse teaches the security of the Believer. Of this security, John wrote, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God . . ." (1st John 3:1). Salvation places you into the family of God.
This new relationship with God is by birth and by blood.
Jesus spoke of a birth that is a necessity for salvation in John 3. He said, "Ye must be born again." Of course, this birth is spiritual. It is a result of a true salvation experience. Your physical birth made you the child of your father. Your spiritual birth made you a child of the heavenly Father. You could refuse to claim your earthly father or he could refuse to claim you.
Yet, the fact remains you are still his child. Nothing you or he could ever do would change that. Consequently, your spiritual birth made you a child of God. Your spiritual birth forever settled your position with God. Sin can break your fellowship, but not your relationship with God. You cannot be unborn again, therefore your spiritual birth secures your position with God.
Paul wrote, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Ephesians 2:13). The blood which flows in your veins establishes your earthly kindred. Your spiritual kinship was permanently settled by the blood of Jesus the moment you believed. Is the blood of Jesus which saved you powerful enough to keep you saved? Yes, it is enough to keep you saved for all eternity.
Can I lose my salvation? Your salvation is secured by God's provision of love, by the protection of God's hand, and by the position of salvation. God keeps you in His heart, in His hand, and in His household.
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:02 pm
Jewish at Heart Hello, everyone! I know you haven't seen me around here before, but I am a new member of your guild. I've been hoping to find somebody I can confide in and ask advice of; I don't want to let my immediate family down, nor do I want my close church friends to know and be let down by me, so I have told nobody about this before. I have been so depressed lately that it is unreal. I haven't felt this way in a long time, and it seems like mostly it's my fault. My family and I are going through a really large storm, so naturally times are going to be tough right now. I have faith that everything is going to work out A-okay, though! My problem is myself. You see, back in November/December, my ex-boyfriend and I went a little further than we should have, multiple times. Sometimes I would be okay with it; other times I would feel guilty and condemned. During those times, in the back of my mind I knew it was wrong and I kept asking God to forgive me, but at the same time I was curious and wanted to see what would happen and did nothing to stop it even though I knew I should and God was not pleased with it. I feel terrible about it; the other day at work I was reading about how God had rejected Saul because of his consistent pattern of disobedience to Him. I recognized that this was a consistent pattern of disobedience in my own life. The first time I did this I wasn't even saved, I was a backslider, but this second time I've fully confessed to be a Christian, even while knowingly sinning. Christians aren't supposed to act that way; it hurt my witness to my ex-boyfriend because he wasn't fully committed to Christ, and it's hurt my relationship with my God more than I can say. I regret this so much. I keep asking for God to forgive me, but I still feel dirty and ashamed of myself. I am afraid of God rejecting me like He rejected Saul. I'm also afraid of God taking me back and restoring me to Himself, and then turning around and doing the same thing over again. In the back of my mind I hear that little voice saying, "You said last time after God saved you that you would never do it again; look at what you did. You did it again. What makes you think that you'll hold up better next time?" I'm weak, spiritually, and I need advice and help. Actually, I'm pretty sure I agree with what the previous poster said to you, although I'd also have to point out, just saying you believe doesn't make you a Christian. If you are one, then yes, those truths should be things to hold to, although, don't hold to them because someone else says you are a Christian. That would be relying upon men, who cannot know your heart, rather than God. Instead, examine yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). Here is a great Gospel presentation that also addresses repentance and true assurance of salvation. _ http://heartcrymissionary.com/the-gospel _ These things being said? I don't know your heart either, but I'd rather assume you are a believer, as is your claim. Pretty sure the previous poster pointed out that Satan does accuse you: Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Yes, what you're doing is sin but if you're feeling too dirty to come to Jesus? Think about that: you are, in fact, based on your own merits, too dirty to come. That's true! You will never do well enough to deserve to come. You can't look to your own performance to determine how worthy you are to come to Jesus, but instead you have to acknowledge that you are in fact not worthy based on your own merits, you are too weak and you NEED Him otherwise you cannot overcome your sin. Don't let your weakness and sin and failure drive you away from Christ, but rather toward Him. As Peter states: _ John 6:66-68 66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. _ Who else are you going to go to, sister? No one else has words of eternal life. Is He ignorant of your temptations and sins? _ Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. _ Don't be afraid to go to Jesus. Even take your fear of being like Saul before Jesus, take all of it before Him and don't try to hide it away. There are some words from a hymn I really like, and I hope they will be helpful. They go like this: _ "Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to thy cross I cling;" It's from this hymn: http://opc.org/hymn.html?hymn_id=615 (Note: Please don't confuse the OPC or the PCA with the PCUSA) _ Cling to Jesus, not your own ability to perform well. Cling to Jesus, not your own ability to remain faithful. Empty hands... nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the cross I cling. That's it. That's my only hope. The cross of Jesus. None of my merits can in any way save me or make me worthy. I'd also suggest checking out some places about repentance in the Bible. A great place, I'd say, is Psalm 51. That is a great guideline for a prayer of repentance. There is a hymn that is modeled after that, also: _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVX2GCoFNik Hymn: "God, Be Merciful to Me," Trinity Hymnal #415 First Presbyterian Church Perkasie MacLaren 2 minutes and 51 seconds long. Not the full hymn but still awesome. Here are the full lyrics: http://opc.org/hymn.html?hymn_id=208 _ I'll give one last thing I hope might be helpful. _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knLq1Jzfo6s The Unconditional Love of Christ - Paul Washer 5 minutes and 35 seconds long. _ I'll be praying for you, sister. Remember that Christ never casts out those who come to Him (John 6:37). He tells those who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him for rest (Matthew 11:28-30). We love you and please, go and tell these things to your elders and pastor. They are your shepherds and you are under their care. Don't hide this from them.
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:57 pm
About King Saul & RepentanceThe thing about King Saul is he never really did things for God,
but for his own glory. I highly question his "repentance".
Acknowledging (admitting) that you've sinned is not the same
as turning from your wicked ways. New Testament, Old Testament,
it's the same.
Acts 3:26 (NIV)
26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to
bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Jeremiah 35:15 (NIV)
15 Again and again I sent all my servants the prophets to you.
They said, “Each of you must turn from your wicked ways and
reform your actions; do not follow other gods to serve them.
Then you will live in the land I have given to you and your
ancestors.” But you have not paid attention or listened to me.
Saul's confession:
1 Samuel 15:24-26 (NIV)
24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the Lord’s
command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I
gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back
with me, so that I may worship the Lord.”
26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have
rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected
you as king over Israel!”
Something tells me King Saul wasn't sincere. Because remember,
Kind David sinned with Bathsheba, not just adultery but murder plot
and yet David's sin was forgiven. So he must've not rejected the
word of the Lord like Saul, but his repentance must've been real.
2 Samuel 12:13 (NIV)
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin.
You are not going to die.
So King Saul's sincerity is questionable. You don't seek God
your own way (offering sacrifices in a way he didn't allow, the
reason Saul was rejected). And then again, Saul tried to seek
God through a medium (also prohibted in his law). It just
demonstrates he has no care, no true love for YHWH.
He wants to force God to be in his life on his own terms
and not on God's.
1 Samuel 28:6-7 (NIV)
6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by
dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants,
“Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go
and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
Not conducive to:
John 14:15 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
So is King Saul's fervor to find God really about loving him?
is this real repentance? does he want to obey? or is this just
about having an "in" with God, maintaining his power? prestige?
Some false assurance that he's important? Only God knows.
But clearly it's not sincere. He doesn't share YHWH's heart.
Acts 13:22 (NIV)
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified
concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after
my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’
Another one like King Saul is Pharaoh. When did he ever repent....?
He kept existing as an unrepentant pagan. Plague after plague.
Pharaoh wasn't saved. He was a vessel of wrath, who did not
agree with the way YHWH commanded to be worshipped and
kept trying to make Moses compromise, water down, what
YHWH clearly said needed to be done.
(1) Look, you guys don't have to leave Egypt. Just do your thing here:
Exodus 8:25-27 (NIV)
25 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said,
“Go, sacrifice to your God here in the land.”
26 But Moses said, “That would not be right. The sacrifices
we offer the Lord our God would be detestable to the
Egyptians. And if we offer sacrifices that are detestable
in their eyes, will they not stone us? 27 We must take a
three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices
to the Lord our God, as he commands us.”
(2) Don't leave with everyone, just take some.
Exodus 10:9-11(NIV)
9 Moses answered, “We will go with our young and our old,
with our sons and our daughters, and with our flocks and
herds, because we are to celebrate a festival to the Lord.”
10 Pharaoh said, “The Lord be with you—if I let you go,
along with your women and children! Clearly you are bent
on evil.[a] 11 No! Have only the men go and worship the
Lord, since that’s what you have been asking for.”
Then Moses and Aaron were driven out of
Pharaoh’s presence.
Footnotes:
Exodus 10:10 Or Be careful, trouble is in store for you!
Moses is praying for Pharaoh's healing every time. And yet,
Pharaoh is not repenting, he's not really agreeing to God's will,
he just wants to get healed of the plague. Then he changes
his mind later. Do not be like Pharaoh and do not let the prince
of this world make you compromise what God's word says.
Whatever temptation comes your way saying, "you don't have
to be THAT obedient" whether your boyfriend or someone
else, reject it, repeat God's commands to the liar.
Pharaoh admitted his sins, just like Saul.
Exodus 10:16 (NIV)
16 Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said,
“I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you.
So, is his example real repentance? Merely admitting that we sinned?
No.
Even John the baptist described repentance as turning from
your wicked ways:
Luke 3:7-14 (NIV)
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of
vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in
keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We
have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can
raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees,
and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown
into the fire.”
10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.
11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one
who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what
should we do?”
13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content
with your pay.”
That is the fruit of repentance: turning from wicked ways, not just admitting,
"Yeah, we're evil..." :l About Salvation I agree with three points that Kaosujin and Micah touched on:
(1) that Satan is constantly accusing the brethren
(2) that clinging to Jesus is the only answer.
(3) that I don't see what exactly is going on in your heart.
However, I do not agree with the notion that salvation can never be lost. It
can. If you have the Holy Spirit in you already, and you reject Jesus
(abandon Jesus entirely), there is no more repentance for you. Absolutely
nothing can make you want to turn back. That you even want to
repent tells me you haven't abandoned Jesus entirely. So I wouldn't worry
about this describing you, but just so you know and have peace of mind:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted
the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the
goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who
have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are
crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Don't let apostates distort Paul's words here: God stays faithful in the sense
of staying loyal to what he pronounced. It doesn't mean he saves you
anyway, after you've totally disowned Jesus. Disowning Christ (meaning,
you owned him at one point, because you are in a position to dis-own him;
thus, you freely walked out, nothing attacked you / snatched you out of
his hand) is what will leave you condemned. Just like he promised in
John 3:16-18 and he will stay faithful to what he pronounced / what he said
he was going to do, unlike us, who don't stay faithful to what we say. One
minute we say one thing, the next another. God said we must believe in
Jesus to be saved and if you don't, then you stay condemned. If believing
in Jesus ever stops being true for us, he's going to stay true: you'll be
condemned.
John 3:16-18 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did
not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world
through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because they have not
believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Your Problems (& their Solutions)So...your problem: though I can't see inside of your heart, the way God
can, judging by your fruit, I suspect two things:Problem #1. It's a heart problem (wholeheartedness is lacking).
1 Chronicles 28:9 (NIV)
9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve
him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord
searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him,
he will reject you forever.
James 4:8 (NIV)
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands,
you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Psalm 78:8 (NIV)
8 They would not be like their ancestors—
a stubborn and rebellious generation,
whose hearts were not loyal to God,
whose spirits were not faithful to him.
Solution: ask God for a pure heart that is wholeheartedly devoted to
him, that wants to love him (obey him) with all power, willingness of mind,
and strength.
Psalm 51:10 (NIV)
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 139:23-24 (NIV)
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
Problem #2: A flesh problem. Read this carefully:
Romans 7:14-25 (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to
sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but
what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law
is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in
me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful
nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—
this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer
I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there
with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another
law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a
prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am!
Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to
God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful
nature[b] a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:18 Or my flesh
b. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh
Solution: ask for the Holy Spirit (if you've never done so; you might be like
the believers in Acts 8), but if you already have received it,
then ask that he help you fan Him to flame until it's a roaring blaze that
consumes you, burning hot, not lukewarm. And then you'll put that law of
sin to death and be able to walk in God's law.
Acts 8:15-17 (NIV)
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they
might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet
come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of
the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them,
and they received the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11:13 (NIV)
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit
to those who ask him!”
2 Timothy 1:6-7(NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is
in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us
does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to
God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh
cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm
of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NIV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you
from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart
and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and
give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to
follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
It's all related, new heart, new spirit, new desires to sincerely obey God out
love for him, loving him more than anything else, having no idols. It's very
easy to turn people into idols. The moment something is determining how
you walk in your faith—and that something isn't God or his commands—they've
become your idol, they are mastering you. Whether your own flesh, another
person, or your fear of death, whatever it is, it's an idol. Pray that he rids
all idols from your life. There can be room for only one Lord.
Romans 6:12-14 (NIV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its
evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument
of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been
brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an
instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master,
because you are not under the law*, but under grace.
note: not under the law of the flesh* that is in hostility to
God's law. For sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4).
And you're no longer supposed to be under that slavery of breaking it.
If you do, it's because you chose to sin. Since you're no longer under
that bondage to sin.
2 Peter 2:19 (NIV)
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of
depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”
Matthew 6:24 (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and
love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
You cannot serve both God and money.
May you be mastered by God and his commands only, not anything
or anyone else.
Practical Tips: - Fasting from certain activities can free up time you can then reallocate
towards Godly activities instead. This will help fuel the spiritual desires
and quench fleshly ones. You start pining after the things you willingly
dedicate the most time towards. Spiritual or fleshly. One will lead away
from the other.
Galatians 5:16-17 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is
contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not
to do whatever[a] you want.
Footnotes:
a. Galatians 5:17 Or you do not do what
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV)
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its
passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step
with the Spirit.
Kill that flesh. Crucify it. It won't be painless. Fasting from certain activities,
like I started off by saying, helps. When I start noticing that something is
enslaving me or I am getting addicted to something and allowing it to dictate
what I do and how I spend my time, instead of God's commands dictating that,
that's when I stop the activity altogether. It either gets permanently cut out
or reintroduced once I'm not mastered by it anymore.
- You could say that all desires (carnal or spiritual) start off as a little flame.
The more you fuel it, the bigger it gets. The more you suffocate it, the tinier
it gets, to the point of quenching it / extinguishing the flame. So any
thoughts you linger on, that are ungodly, will fuel carnal, ungodly lusts.
Submit your thoughts to Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:5 (NIV)
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against
the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it
obedient to Christ.
Whether the thought is your own, or someone coming up to you trying to
convince you to do certain things or think a certain way. Submit the thought
to the word of God and make it reflect godliness.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NIV)
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
Colossians 3:5 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature:
sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed,
which is idolatry.
- Solution to the boyfriend problems: don't allow yourself to be alone with
your boyfriend. Always have someone present. Otherwise, don't hang out.
Willingly submit cell phones and private messages to someone else's
supervision and let your boyfriend know that all your messages will be read
by somebody else so he doesn't try to sneak inappropriate thoughts just to get
a thrill or blush out of you.
- Also, examine your relationship in the first place: not saying this is your case,
but if all you do is sin together instead of glorifying Jesus together (in place of
studying the word together, serving the community together, resolving disputes
/ being peacemakers, praying, getting to know each other under supervision,
but only focused on lust and affection like a couple of pagans lost in the world
[I don't mean this insultingly, I have a verse in mind which I'll quote below]);
then reassess the reason why you want to be with him. How much bible study
and praising God through word and song is going on in your life? is your
boyfriend helping you accomplish that or being an obstacle?
1 Peter 4:3 (NIV)
3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to
do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing
and detestable idolatry.
1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is
holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not
know God;
Footnotes:
a. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to
acquire a wife
Notice it says learn to do this.
In a nutshell: fast from certain things, kill the flesh, be careful how you spend
your time, it determines what you fuel an affection for. And pray for God to
give you a wholehearted devotion. Once you confess it and acknowledge that
it was wrong and that you don't want to do it, there should be nothing holding
you back from pursuing him and leaving the wicked way behind. Fast. Turn
away from things. Do things differently. Pronto.
1 John 1:7-9 (NIV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one
another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Footnotes:
a. 1 John 1:7 Or every
Where is Paul Washer getting, "bring in all thy bills father, that I may see
what they owe thee"? This is the second time I noticed you posting this
video, but I didn't address it then (not sure why). He makes it sound like
he's reading from the bible, but that's not in there...?
Also, I highly disagree with the word "unconditional" being used anywhere
near the bible, let alone coming out of a Christian's mouth. God has
conditions. Accept his son or die.
John 3:18 (NIV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
God’s one and only Son.
I agree with the overall sentiment of the video though. He died for every
sin we'd ever commit in our lifetime. But staying in Jesus is the condition.
And that is a condition that can be changed. Both Paul and Jesus mention
believers being in Jesus and then coming out (not because someone snatched
them out, but because they withered from the inside). Not that they were
false converts either. But truly grafted in.
Jesus, in the chapter about proving ourselves to be his disciples:
John 15:1-8 (NIV)
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off
every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that
does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are
already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me,
as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain
in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you,
you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do
not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you
remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and
it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear
much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Footnotes:
John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Footnotes:
a. John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Ergo, disciples, who were in Jesus, but stopped bearing fruit,
disconnected from the vine, thus, withered, died, and got cut off.
Nothing snatched from his hands. They literally died in his hand.
Paul when talking about Gentiles being grafted into Israel:
Romans 11:17-21(NIV)
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive
shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the
nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior
to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root,
but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off
so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because
of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if
God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
According to Paul, someone can have belief, thus be grafted in, but then if they
fall out, into unbelief, they'll be broken off (ergo, once saved, then not saved).
It's only a maintained belief, that bears fruit, that saves.
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:10 am
cristobela About King Saul & RepentanceThe thing about King Saul is he never really did things for God,
but for his own glory. I highly question his "repentance".
Acknowledging (admitting) that you've sinned is not the same
as turning from your wicked ways. New Testament, Old Testament,
it's the same.
Acts 3:26 (NIV)
26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to
bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Jeremiah 35:15 (NIV)
15 Again and again I sent all my servants the prophets to you.
They said, “Each of you must turn from your wicked ways and
reform your actions; do not follow other gods to serve them.
Then you will live in the land I have given to you and your
ancestors.” But you have not paid attention or listened to me.
Saul's confession:
1 Samuel 15:24-26 (NIV)
24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the Lord’s
command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I
gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back
with me, so that I may worship the Lord.”
26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have
rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected
you as king over Israel!”
Something tells me King Saul wasn't sincere. Because remember,
Kind David sinned with Bathsheba, not just adultery but murder plot
and yet David's sin was forgiven. So he must've not rejected the
word of the Lord like Saul, but his repentance must've been real.
2 Samuel 12:13 (NIV)
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin.
You are not going to die.
So King Saul's sincerity is questionable. You don't seek God
your own way (offering sacrifices in a way he didn't allow, the
reason Saul was rejected). And then again, Saul tried to seek
God through a medium (also prohibted in his law). It just
demonstrates he has no care, no true love for YHWH.
He wants to force God to be in his life on his own terms
and not on God's.
1 Samuel 28:6-7 (NIV)
6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by
dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants,
“Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go
and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
Not conducive to:
John 14:15 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
So is King Saul's fervor to find God really about loving him?
is this real repentance? does he want to obey? or is this just
about having an "in" with God, maintaining his power? prestige?
Some false assurance that he's important? Only God knows.
But clearly it's not sincere. He doesn't share YHWH's heart.
Acts 13:22 (NIV)
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified
concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after
my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’
Another one like King Saul is Pharaoh. When did he ever repent....?
He kept existing as an unrepentant pagan. Plague after plague.
Pharaoh wasn't saved. He was a vessel of wrath, who did not
agree with the way YHWH commanded to be worshipped and
kept trying to make Moses compromise, water down, what
YHWH clearly said needed to be done.
(1) Look, you guys don't have to leave Egypt. Just do your thing here:
Exodus 8:25-27 (NIV)
25 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said,
“Go, sacrifice to your God here in the land.”
26 But Moses said, “That would not be right. The sacrifices
we offer the Lord our God would be detestable to the
Egyptians. And if we offer sacrifices that are detestable
in their eyes, will they not stone us? 27 We must take a
three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices
to the Lord our God, as he commands us.”
(2) Don't leave with everyone, just take some.
Exodus 10:9-11(NIV)
9 Moses answered, “We will go with our young and our old,
with our sons and our daughters, and with our flocks and
herds, because we are to celebrate a festival to the Lord.”
10 Pharaoh said, “The Lord be with you—if I let you go,
along with your women and children! Clearly you are bent
on evil.[a] 11 No! Have only the men go and worship the
Lord, since that’s what you have been asking for.”
Then Moses and Aaron were driven out of
Pharaoh’s presence.
Footnotes:
Exodus 10:10 Or Be careful, trouble is in store for you!
Moses is praying for Pharaoh's healing every time. And yet,
Pharaoh is not repenting, he's not really agreeing to God's will,
he just wants to get healed of the plague. Then he changes
his mind later. Do not be like Pharaoh and do not let the prince
of this world make you compromise what God's word says.
Whatever temptation comes your way saying, "you don't have
to be THAT obedient" whether your boyfriend or someone
else, reject it, repeat God's commands to the liar.
Pharaoh admitted his sins, just like Saul.
Exodus 10:16 (NIV)
16 Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said,
“I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you.
So, is his example real repentance? Merely admitting that we sinned?
No.
Even John the baptist described repentance as turning from
your wicked ways:
Luke 3:7-14 (NIV)
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of
vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in
keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We
have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can
raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees,
and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown
into the fire.”
10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.
11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one
who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what
should we do?”
13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content
with your pay.”
That is the fruit of repentance: turning from wicked ways, not just admitting,
"Yeah, we're evil..." :l About Salvation I agree with three points that Kaosujin and Micah touched on:
(1) that Satan is constantly accusing the brethren
(2) that clinging to Jesus is the only answer.
(3) that I don't see what exactly is going on in your heart.
However, I do not agree with the notion that salvation can never be lost. It
can. If you have the Holy Spirit in you already, and you reject Jesus
(abandon Jesus entirely), there is no more repentance for you. Absolutely
nothing can make you want to turn back. That you even want to
repent tells me you haven't abandoned Jesus entirely. So I wouldn't worry
about this describing you, but just so you know and have peace of mind:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted
the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the
goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who
have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are
crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Don't let apostates distort Paul's words here: God stays faithful in the sense
of staying loyal to what he pronounced. It doesn't mean he saves you
anyway, after you've totally disowned Jesus. Disowning Christ (meaning,
you owned him at one point, because you are in a position to dis-own him;
thus, you freely walked out, nothing attacked you / snatched you out of
his hand) is what will leave you condemned. Just like he promised in
John 3:16-18 and he will stay faithful to what he pronounced / what he said
he was going to do, unlike us, who don't stay faithful to what we say. One
minute we say one thing, the next another. God said we must believe in
Jesus to be saved and if you don't, then you stay condemned. If believing
in Jesus ever stops being true for us, he's going to stay true: you'll be
condemned.
John 3:16-18 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did
not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world
through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because they have not
believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Your Problems (& their Solutions)So...your problem: though I can't see inside of your heart, the way God
can, judging by your fruit, I suspect two things:Problem #1. It's a heart problem (wholeheartedness is lacking).
1 Chronicles 28:9 (NIV)
9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve
him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord
searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him,
he will reject you forever.
James 4:8 (NIV)
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands,
you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Psalm 78:8 (NIV)
8 They would not be like their ancestors—
a stubborn and rebellious generation,
whose hearts were not loyal to God,
whose spirits were not faithful to him.
Solution: ask God for a pure heart that is wholeheartedly devoted to
him, that wants to love him (obey him) with all power, willingness of mind,
and strength.
Psalm 51:10 (NIV)
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 139:23-24 (NIV)
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
Problem #2: A flesh problem. Read this carefully:
Romans 7:14-25 (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to
sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but
what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law
is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in
me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful
nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—
this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer
I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there
with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another
law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a
prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am!
Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to
God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful
nature[b] a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:18 Or my flesh
b. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh
Solution: ask for the Holy Spirit (if you've never done so; you might be like
the believers in Acts 8), but if you already have received it,
then ask that he help you fan Him to flame until it's a roaring blaze that
consumes you, burning hot, not lukewarm. And then you'll put that law of
sin to death and be able to walk in God's law.
Acts 8:15-17 (NIV)
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they
might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet
come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of
the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them,
and they received the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11:13 (NIV)
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit
to those who ask him!”
2 Timothy 1:6-7(NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is
in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us
does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to
God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh
cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm
of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NIV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you
from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart
and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and
give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to
follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
It's all related, new heart, new spirit, new desires to sincerely obey God out
love for him, loving him more than anything else, having no idols. It's very
easy to turn people into idols. The moment something is determining how
you walk in your faith—and that something isn't God or his commands—they've
become your idol, they are mastering you. Whether your own flesh, another
person, or your fear of death, whatever it is, it's an idol. Pray that he rids
all idols from your life. There can be room for only one Lord.
Romans 6:12-14 (NIV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its
evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument
of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been
brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an
instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master,
because you are not under the law*, but under grace.
note: not under the law of the flesh* that is in hostility to
God's law. For sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4).
And you're no longer supposed to be under that slavery of breaking it.
If you do, it's because you chose to sin. Since you're no longer under
that bondage to sin.
2 Peter 2:19 (NIV)
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of
depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”
Matthew 6:24 (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and
love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
You cannot serve both God and money.
May you be mastered by God and his commands only, not anything
or anyone else.
Practical Tips: - Fasting from certain activities can free up time you can then reallocate
towards Godly activities instead. This will help fuel the spiritual desires
and quench fleshly ones. You start pining after the things you willingly
dedicate the most time towards. Spiritual or fleshly. One will lead away
from the other.
Galatians 5:16-17 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is
contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not
to do whatever[a] you want.
Footnotes:
a. Galatians 5:17 Or you do not do what
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV)
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its
passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step
with the Spirit.
Kill that flesh. Crucify it. It won't be painless. Fasting from certain activities,
like I started off by saying, helps. When I start noticing that something is
enslaving me or I am getting addicted to something and allowing it to dictate
what I do and how I spend my time, instead of God's commands dictating that,
that's when I stop the activity altogether. It either gets permanently cut out
or reintroduced once I'm not mastered by it anymore.
- You could say that all desires (carnal or spiritual) start off as a little flame.
The more you fuel it, the bigger it gets. The more you suffocate it, the tinier
it gets, to the point of quenching it / extinguishing the flame. So any
thoughts you linger on, that are ungodly, will fuel carnal, ungodly lusts.
Submit your thoughts to Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:5 (NIV)
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against
the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it
obedient to Christ.
Whether the thought is your own, or someone coming up to you trying to
convince you to do certain things or think a certain way. Submit the thought
to the word of God and make it reflect godliness.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NIV)
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
Colossians 3:5 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature:
sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed,
which is idolatry.
- Solution to the boyfriend problems: don't allow yourself to be alone with
your boyfriend. Always have someone present. Otherwise, don't hang out.
Willingly submit cell phones and private messages to someone else's
supervision and let your boyfriend know that all your messages will be read
by somebody else so he doesn't try to sneak inappropriate thoughts just to get
a thrill or blush out of you.
- Also, examine your relationship in the first place: not saying this is your case,
but if all you do is sin together instead of glorifying Jesus together (in place of
studying the word together, serving the community together, resolving disputes
/ being peacemakers, praying, getting to know each other under supervision,
but only focused on lust and affection like a couple of pagans lost in the world
[I don't mean this insultingly, I have a verse in mind which I'll quote below]);
then reassess the reason why you want to be with him. How much bible study
and praising God through word and song is going on in your life? is your
boyfriend helping you accomplish that or being an obstacle?
1 Peter 4:3 (NIV)
3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to
do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing
and detestable idolatry.
1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is
holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not
know God;
Footnotes:
a. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to
acquire a wife
Notice it says learn to do this.
In a nutshell: fast from certain things, kill the flesh, be careful how you spend
your time, it determines what you fuel an affection for. And pray for God to
give you a wholehearted devotion. Once you confess it and acknowledge that
it was wrong and that you don't want to do it, there should be nothing holding
you back from pursuing him and leaving the wicked way behind. Fast. Turn
away from things. Do things differently. Pronto.
1 John 1:7-9 (NIV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one
another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Footnotes:
a. 1 John 1:7 Or every
Where is Paul Washer getting, "bring in all thy bills father, that I may see
what they owe thee"? This is the second time I noticed you posting this
video, but I didn't address it then (not sure why). He makes it sound like
he's reading from the bible, but that's not in there...?
Also, I highly disagree with the word "unconditional" being used anywhere
near the bible, let alone coming out of a Christian's mouth. God has
conditions. Accept his son or die.
John 3:18 (NIV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
God’s one and only Son.
I agree with the overall sentiment of the video though. He died for every
sin we'd ever commit in our lifetime. But staying in Jesus is the condition.
And that is a condition that can be changed. Both Paul and Jesus mention
believers being in Jesus and then coming out (not because someone snatched
them out, but because they withered from the inside). Not that they were
false converts either. But truly grafted in.
Jesus, in the chapter about proving ourselves to be his disciples:
John 15:1-8 (NIV)
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off
every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that
does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are
already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me,
as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain
in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you,
you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do
not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you
remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and
it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear
much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Footnotes:
John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Footnotes:
a. John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Ergo, disciples, who were in Jesus, but stopped bearing fruit,
disconnected from the vine, thus, withered, died, and got cut off.
Nothing snatched from his hands. They literally died in his hand.
Paul when talking about Gentiles being grafted into Israel:
Romans 11:17-21(NIV)
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive
shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the
nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior
to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root,
but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off
so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because
of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if
God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
According to Paul, someone can have belief, thus be grafted in, but then if they
fall out, into unbelief, they'll be broken off (ergo, once saved, then not saved).
It's only a maintained belief, that bears fruit, that saves. I actually used to believe one could lose their salvation as well. First of all, reasoning through this, how is one "saved" if they don't actually enter into the Kingdom? They were never actually saved from Hell if they end up there, so how could you say "Well, you were saved, but you fell out of it so you're not now?" You quote Hebrews 6, but if you just check a few verses later it'd explain your misunderstanding: _ Hebrews 6:9 9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. _ The things Paul was speaking of did not accompany salvation: the things he described were not things a saved person does. Your quotation of 2 Timothy 2:11-13 shouldn't be taken in an absolute sense. Peter denied Jesus and yet he was a believer (also, have you ever done something contrary to dying to self, or have you ever not endured when you should have). It's not saying if you ever disown Him you're not a Christian. It's talking about lifestyle here. Peter repented. Also, verse 13 is debatable on the way you're interpreting it. Two possible interpretations are presented here, of which I think I hold the latter. _ Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions read, "if we believe not him". This may be understood, either of such who are altogether destitute of faith, who do not believe in Christ at all; and particularly do not believe what was just now said concerning his denying such that deny him, but mock and scoff at his coming, and at a future judgment: this unbelief of theirs will not make void his faith or faithfulness; see Romans 3:3, he will abide faithful to his word of threatening; and what he says in Mark 16:16 will be found to be an everlasting truth: or it may be understood of true believers, whose faith sometimes is very low, as to its exercise on Christ, and with reference to their future glory and happiness; but Christ is faithful to all his, covenant engagements for them, to bring them to glory, and to every word of promise concerning their happiness, and to every branch of the faithful saying above mentioned; and he is ever the same in his love to them, and in the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and his salvation is an everlasting and unchangeable one; nor do the saints' interest in it, and security by it, depend upon their acts of believing, or their frames, but upon the firmness and unchangeableness of Christ, the object of faith. He cannot deny himself; he cannot go contrary to his word; that would be to act contrary to his nature and perfections, and would be a denying of himself, which is not possible; wherefore his faithfulness will never fail, even though, the faith of his people does, as to the exercise of it." _ The quotation in John 3 simply talks about our condition before being adopted (Ephesians 2:3). It has nothing to do with being unadopted. Disown does not necessarily require that you owned something first. Someone can claim Jesus and then disown Him: this doesn't mean they actually believed. As for your disagreement with using unconditional? Sorry, quoting John 3 doesn't negate it, as I explained above and as I will demonstrate through the plain teaching of a certain text later (there are more but I'd rather go for focus than a scatter gun attempt to demonstrate my point): if you really belong to Jesus, you can't change that now. John 15 is a parable, so it is not to be taken as absolute literalist language. It isn't to say that people were true disciples and then not, but rather talking from the perspective of what they claim to be (in the vine, they claim to be Christians), otherwise what you're doing is negating plain teaching of Scripture elsewhere. Tota scriptura. You need to look at all of Scripture. You quoted more symbolic language from Romans 11 and gave it a literalistic interpretation. This I say would definitely seems to be speaking about promises and professions, but not actual salvation. Have you heard of the Golden Chain of Redemption? _ Romans 8:29-30 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. _ This is called the Golden Chain because it all follows and you can't break any of it. Your claim that someone can be saved and then lose that is negated by clear teaching of Scripture here, sister. Notice that those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. It does not say He foreknew what they would choose by looking through the corridors of time, but it is saying He foreknew them (check Matthew 7:21-23; consider I never knew you, not I knew you once but you lost salvation so now I don't). He predestines these people whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Jesus; if someone fails to do this, then they cannot be one of these people (1 John 2:19). Let's follow the rest of the chain. The same ones He predestined, He also called. This isn't the general call, but an effectual one that results in salvation. To say it is the general call makes the statement pointless and contradictory to it's context. Those He calls here are saved as demonstrated by the earlier point but which will also be demonstrated to a greater degree in the next parts of the chain. Not everyone who claims to believe is saved nor does everyone who hears the Gospel believe. Those He called He also justified. These people are justified. What is justification? Forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus (Romans 3:21-26). Faith is something that is granted to some but not all people (Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 2:8-10; not everyone believes) as well as repentance (Acts 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:25; not everyone repents). To say someone is no longer justified means they never were justified ultimately (they were never not going to end up in Hell, as they ultimately end up in Hell), so it's a pointless statement to make. This is clarified even more in the last part of the chain. He says that those who are justified, He also glorified. You're saying some can be justified, but can lose that justification: this would mean that some who are justified (nowhere do we see that people other than the ones being spoken of like this are actually justified nor is it consistent logically) are not glorified, contrary to the text. Glorification concerns our eternal glory in Heaven (see Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible for Romans 8:30). If someone has any part of this chain, they must have all of it, which means they must enter eternal glory, which means they cannot lose salvation. To maintain your view, you will have to mangle this text to mean things it cannot mean. Words have meanings and you can't change them even if you may want to. We all have traditions and blind spots and I believe this is one of your's, sister. I used to share the same one you have (for real, I even used the same verses), when I was a younger Christian, but by God's grace He has freed me from it. I hope that He may do the same with you. This being said, I actually liked many other things you said (did you notice you quoted Psalm 51, which I also pointed to?), for example fasting and whatnot. Not being mastered. These are good points. I'm curious, what did you mean when you said "Don't let apostates distort Paul's words here..."? Are you implying that those who hold to OSAS are apostate?
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:13 pm
Jewish at Heart Hello, everyone! I know you haven't seen me around here before, but I am a new member of your guild. I've been hoping to find somebody I can confide in and ask advice of; I don't want to let my immediate family down, nor do I want my close church friends to know and be let down by me, so I have told nobody about this before. I have been so depressed lately that it is unreal. I haven't felt this way in a long time, and it seems like mostly it's my fault. My family and I are going through a really large storm, so naturally times are going to be tough right now. I have faith that everything is going to work out A-okay, though! My problem is myself. You see, back in November/December, my ex-boyfriend and I went a little further than we should have, multiple times. Sometimes I would be okay with it; other times I would feel guilty and condemned. During those times, in the back of my mind I knew it was wrong and I kept asking God to forgive me, but at the same time I was curious and wanted to see what would happen and did nothing to stop it even though I knew I should and God was not pleased with it. I feel terrible about it; the other day at work I was reading about how God had rejected Saul because of his consistent pattern of disobedience to Him. I recognized that this was a consistent pattern of disobedience in my own life. The first time I did this I wasn't even saved, I was a backslider, but this second time I've fully confessed to be a Christian, even while knowingly sinning. Christians aren't supposed to act that way; it hurt my witness to my ex-boyfriend because he wasn't fully committed to Christ, and it's hurt my relationship with my God more than I can say. I regret this so much. I keep asking for God to forgive me, but I still feel dirty and ashamed of myself. I am afraid of God rejecting me like He rejected Saul. I'm also afraid of God taking me back and restoring me to Himself, and then turning around and doing the same thing over again. In the back of my mind I hear that little voice saying, "You said last time after God saved you that you would never do it again; look at what you did. You did it again. What makes you think that you'll hold up better next time?" I'm weak, spiritually, and I need advice and help. " As soon as you say 'I messed up and I gotta do something to clean up my life before I can go back to Christ and be received by Him.' Then you've fallen into a trap. You should rather rise up and run straight back to the Father, you won’t make yourself any purer and cleaner by staying away from Him." - I'll Be Honest Rise Up and Run Straight Back to ChristIt Is Crippling to Not Run to Christ - Tim ConwayBiblical Tests of True Faith - Paul WasherI tried to be saved, but it didn't work - Tim ConwayWhat is Biblical Repentance? - Ask Pastor Tim ConwayStop Trying to Save Yourself - Kevin WilliamsWhat is Salvation? (In 2 Minutes) - Paul WasherYou may message me anytime if you ever wanted to talk smile
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:07 pm
I will have to divide this reply into two parts. Character limit. Not Just "Hell"Micah Seven Eighteen I actually used to believe one could lose their salvation as well. First of all, reasoning through this, how is one "saved" if they don't actually enter into the Kingdom? They were never actually saved from Hell if they end up there, so how could you say "Well, you were saved, but you fell out of
it so you're not now?"
By considering, that it's not just from "hell"/Gehenna/Lake of Fire/ the place
where the "worm dieth not" that we're saved from, but also saved from the bondage to
the "old nature". Whether we put that salvation "to work" or not,
determines whether you stay saved from the flesh or not.
Matthew 1:21 (NIV)
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,
[a] because he will save his people from their sins.”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 1:21 Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the Lord saves.
1 Peter 2:24 (NIV)
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross,
so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;
“by his wounds you have been healed.”
Romans 6:6-7 (NIV)
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him
so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,
[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because
anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Footnotes:
Romans 6:6 Or be rendered powerless
So, it's not just saved from the "wages of sin" (death, lake of fire,
second death), but set free from the bondage to sin itself, in this life,
this flesh nature no longer dictating what we do as if we had no choice
in the matter anymore.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the
flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm
of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV)
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its
passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in
step with the Spirit.
Problem:
2 Peter 2:20-21 (NIV)
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are
overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs
on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs
are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed
returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Footnotes:
a. 2 Peter 2:22 Prov. 26:11
Same flavor of Hebrews 6:4-6, but said by Peter.
You cannot apply "Once Saved, Always Saved" to this. They escaped.
In Christ. So because of Christ, they were saved. Then, they were
entangled, again, and overcome by their old ways. Overcome meaning
subdued, conquered—not sin "here and there"—but defeated. They did
not overcome, but were overcome, after being saved in Christ. They
were called. They were given faith. They trampled all that underfoot.
If you are going to suggest that the type of believer, whom Peter is
describing right here, was "never truly saved to begin with", how did
they escape, in Christ, in the first place? What does "escaping" mean
to you? How can you merely "think" you're in Christ, but not really be
in him, and still achieve escape? unless you actually were in Christ,
you can't escape.
So if they escaped, they were saved. Peter is not implying they merely
thought they were in Christ. No, they escaped in Christ. What you're
implying is that they never truly escaped in Christ. But if that is so,
then why would Peter say they "escaped" at all? Does escaping not mean
"salvation"? from the earthly nature? What I see is, "I'm no longer held
hostage to this nature that I can't fight; no longer am I a slave to this
filth, & to the world". I've been set free from its grasp, from its ways.
and received a new nature; God's with me now. I'm in Christ.
But after he liberated me / saved me / delivered me, did I stay
free? not entangled? My feet get dirty for being in this world,
but am I rolling around, wallowing in the world's contamination,
enjoying it? Am I demonstrating that what Christ did in me
and the gifts/tools he's given me, are idle, never put into practice?
and that I'm just going to continue living the way I always did.
So, forget Christ. Even though I have him, and was cleansed by him at
one point, it's like that never happened.
Apparently some believers, who have been saved by Christ, who
have their minds enlightened, who have Holy Spirit power in them,
and get cleaned from the inside out, who have tasted of the goodness
of the word of God, still fall away. Peter says it's best had they
never known Christ to begin with. Agreed, because the one who doesn't
know, gets beaten less.
Luke 12:47-48 (NIV)
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get
ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with
many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things
deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From
everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will
be asked.
It is still possible to go back to the flesh, after being saved
from the flesh, after being given the tools that help you crucify
it (the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, mind renewed / mind enlightened,
power to overcome the flesh, heavenly gifts). If, after being
given all these tools, we still can't maintain repentance, not
bearing fruit in keeping with repentance, but just say, "I'm done
with Christianity", then nothing will save us. It's the very power
of God that we have access to. To have it, use it once, then not use it,
then fall away, abandon Jesus, the faith, what more could make a person
repent? turn back? away from sin? Nothing! There is no more repentance
for such a person. God has offered you everything, he gave you faith,
you lost it, he gave you the blood of his son, you trampled it, he gave
you the Spirit, you quenched it, he granted you repentance, but you went
back to the mud. He gave you the power to be cleaned, you became clean,
but then, ultimately you fell away.
This is precisely what Hebrews 6:4-6 is describing.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of
the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to
repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all
over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
They've shared in all that there is to share and still weren't won over.
They were saved of their filth, endowed with God's power, and still fell away.
Nothing will bring them back.
Hebrews 6:9Quote: Hebrews 6:9 9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. _ The things Paul was speaking of did not accompany salvation: the things
he described were not things a saved person does.
agree with Paul in verse 9, because Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about
the loss of salvation (ergo "nothing that accompanies salvation" as
you say): he's describing how there's nothing left to make a person
consider repenting. Thus describing: not saved. Those verses (Heb6:4-6)
were not talking about the "maintaining of salvation". Ergo, after
describing, "once you've shared in all of this, and still fall away,
repentance is impossible", then he can go on to say in v.9, "this
isn't true for you because I don't see all these characteristics
in you", so let's move on to actually talking about things that
pertain to salvation, which you guys are still in. Clearly he's
judging this based on their fruit.
Hebrews 6:9 does not present a problem. Look Carefully at the Details:Key things to note about Hebrews 6:4-6 that you're not seeing:
1) all the criteria have to be true for someone to be beyond repentance
2) the sharing in the Holy Spirit:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the
heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the
goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have
fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are
crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
Peter's DenialsQuote: Peter denied Jesus and yet he was a believer [...]
Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit in him when he denied Jesus.
Peter denied Jesus before the crucifixion, during the trial [John 18:27];
Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit until John 20:22, which is after Jesus
resurrects and breathes the Spirit onto him personally. Thus explaining Peter's
cowardice and rejection of Jesus at the trial: he didn't have the Holy Spirit
yet; this is why he could repent / even wanted to repent. There was still
more to taste of God, to be convinced that he is true, more power to receive
against this fleshly nature (this flesh which manifests cowardice, shrinking
back), and to receive that witness of, "this is the undeniable truth". Not to
mention, Peter saw Christ. Someone who had died is now alive, in his face,
talking to him; of course, he'd have boldness then.
After receiving the Holy Spirit, Peter had boldness.
Because the Holy Spirit is not a spirit of timidity:
Acts 4:31(NIV)
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and
spoke the word of God boldly.
With the Holy Spirit, Peter defends Christ. There is no doubt.
He willingly faces persecution for the sake of Jesus, to suffer
along with him, for his name, encouraging others to do the same.
Why? Because he finally has the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 4:16 (NIV)
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed,
but praise God that you bear that name.
The only way Hebrews 6:4-6 would describe Peter is if Peter were to
reject Christ after receiving the Holy Spirit, and not want anything
to do with Jesus, saying, "Jesus was just myth/metaphor, none of this
literally happened, no miracles. No messiah. He never resurrected.
We hid his body." There would be no saving for Peter then. If he denied
Christ at that point, he'd knowingly be fighting against the truth
after receiving undeniable conviction in his Spirit that Jesus was
the Messiah. Proof upon proof. Revelation after revelation. You can't
share in the gift of the Holy Spirit and not be considered saved.
You are saved if you have the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Christ.
Romans 8:9 (NIV)
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm
of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Thus if you have the Spirit of Christ, you belong to him, you are saved.
So if someone who has shared in the Holy Spirit, as Heb 6:4-6 states,
REJECTS Christ, despite having no doubts that this is the truth,
that person has no more repentance left, that person is not staying
saved. Nothing will make them desire to come back.Quote: Your quotation of 2 Timothy 2:11-13 shouldn't be taken in an absolute sense. Peter denied Jesus and yet he was a believer
denial, then what's preventing us from taking 2 Timothy 2:11-13
in an absolute sense? Timothy had the Holy Spirit, not Peter.
Timothy SHOULD be warned: Timothy, if you deny, if you fall away,
that's it buddy. No more chances, because you do have the
Holy Spirit in you. You have no doubts. To share in that power,
and disown him at that point, is the point of no return. If Peter's
example, which doesn't even apply because he denied Jesus without
the Holy Spirit, is the only thing going against it, I don't see
anything sound to suggest we shouldn't take 2 Tim 2:11-13 in an
absolute sense. I see ALL the reason to take it in absolute sense
because Timothy does have the Holy Spirit and Hebrews 6:4-6 makes
it very clear, that after you share in that gift, and you fall away,
that's it. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Calling the
Holy Spirit a liar, after He witnessed the truth to your spirit,
that is to insult the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 10:29 (NIV)
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves
to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the
covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted
the Spirit of grace?
The consequences are severe!
Thus why Ananias was killed on the spot.
Acts 5:3-5 (NIV)
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so
filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit
and have kept for yourself some of the money you received
for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold?
And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?
What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not
lied just to human beings but to God.”
5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great
fear seized all who heard what had happened.
I suspect Ananias was in Christ. Considering that this is after Pentecost,
and that he is in fellowship with the church who accepted Jesus as Messiah,
is a part of the community, thus why he is bringing money to them (instead
of persecuting) Peter. And I suspect he had the Holy Spirit in him (and so
did his wife, which is why she fell down dead too later in the chapter for
being an accomplice to the lie).
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is serious. Peter didn't commit this
during Jesus' trial. He had doubts still and no Holy Spirit in him.Quote: [...](also, have you ever done something contrary to dying to self, or have you ever not endured when you should have).
(I don't know what I said that made you think otherwise); but Peter
is not the example to resort to here for that either; he may have been
a believer, but he didn't have the Holy Spirit in him at this point.
Unless you lack the Holy Spirit, do not compare yourself to him, at this
stage in his life, for any slip ups).
The goal is to move past that and defeat sin nature now that we do have
the Holy Spirit.
1 John 2:1 (NIV)
2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus
Christ, the Righteous One.
TimothyTimothy in contrast to Peter:
Timothy has the Holy Spirit already. He's not like Peter, who
lacked the Holy Spirit during the rejection episode. He doesn't have doubts.
Not only did Timothy have the Holy Spirit, but he received it by the
laying on of Paul's very own hands (2 Timothy 1:6-7).
So why does Paul find it necessary to warn Timothy of anything? He has
the Holy Spirit, he is saved, he should be sealed and set for life.
Once saved, always saved. What a useless letter. Timothy, I'm warning
you about something you have no need to worry about. You're welcome.
;) lol!
Nothing about this letter says, Timothy, "you really belong to Jesus,
you can't change that now". I agree he belongs to Jesus, but he
actually could have changed that in life.
First of all, the Spirit of Christ is in Timothy, which means
he belongs to Christ.
Romans 8:9 (NIV)
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm
of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
So, if you have the Spirit of Christ, you belong to Christ.
And yet the letter to Timothy has quite the opposite ring of what
you're saying: not that, "you really belong to Jesus, you can't
change that now", but Timothy, IF IF IF IF. Then yes, you'll reign
with him and he won't disown you. But only IF. I know you have the
Holy Spirit by the laying on of my hands, thus you belong to Christ,
but that's no guarantee. IF IF IF IF. Why is Paul wasting his time
writing this letter if Timothy will always be saved and can do
nothing to change that now (well, not "now" now, they're dead now;
but back when they were alive, why bother writing the letter if
Timothy couldn't change a thing)?
The Spirit can be quenched. The Spirit needs to be fanned to flame.
Otherwise, you won't belong to Christ, if you don't have the Spirit
of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NIV)
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
2 Timothy 1:6-7 (NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God,
which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit
God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and
self-discipline.
So this:Quote: if you really belong to Jesus, you can't change that now.
IF Timothy can't lose his faith, what is Paul telling him to fight for?
1 Timothy 6:12 (NIV)
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal
life to which you were called when you made your good confession
in the presence of many witnesses.
What is Paul saying he accomplished?
2 Timothy 4:7 (NIV)
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
God may have provided Paul with faith, but God did not maintain it for him.
Paul kept it. Thus, instructing Timothy to keep it too.
This is similar to Jesus' statement in the gospel of Luke:
Luke 18:8 (NIV)
8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.
However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith
on the earth?”
Jesus, you should know, you anointed them with your Holy Spirit.
If this (not finding faith on the earth) wasn't a possibility
why bother saying / asking this?Beware the Leaven of the PhariseesQuote: Also, verse 13 is debatable on the way you're interpreting it. Two possible interpretations are presented here, of which I think I hold the latter. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions read, "if we believe not him". This may be understood, either of such who are altogether destitute of faith, who do
not believe in Christ at all; and particularly do not believe what was just now said concerning his denying such that deny him, but mock and scoff at his coming, and at a future judgment: this unbelief of theirs will not make void his faith or faithfulness; see Romans 3:3, he will abide faithful to his word of threatening; and what he says in Mark 16:16 will be found to be an everlasting truth: or it may be understood of true believers, whose faith sometimes is very low, as to its exercise on Christ, and with reference to their future glory and happiness; but Christ is faithful to all his, covenant engagements for them, to bring them to glory, and to every word of promise concerning their happiness, and to every branch of the faithful saying above mentioned; and he is ever the same in his love to them, and in the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and his salvation is an everlasting and unchangeable one; nor do the saints' interest in it, and security by it, depend upon their acts of believing, or their frames, but upon the firmness and unchangeableness of Christ, the object of faith. He cannot deny himself; he cannot go contrary to his word; that would be to act contrary to his nature and perfections, and would be a denying of himself, which is not possible; wherefore his faithfulness will never fail, even though, the faith of his people does, as to the exercise of it."
No disrespect, but Gill's commentary means diddly-squat once you
point out a few things.
Is Paul including himself when he says "we"? If so,
Is Paul a scoffer?
Is Timothy a scoffer?
Then that is an unstable interpretation.
If he's not including himself when he says "we",
then we still have problems:
Did Christ have a thing or two to say about "being the same in his love"
for his disciples? that this love could not change?
Revelation 2:5 (NIV)
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did
at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your
lampstand from its place.
John 15:10 (NIV)
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love,
just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
Gill's commentary here makes Christ deny his words. What verse is he
pulling from to suggest his love is never changing towards disciples?
If there is none, then this is tickling the ears with false comfort,
and you're gobbling it up. These are feel good lies / false doctrine.
Don't let the old English seduce you into thinking it's right just
because it sounds intellectual. Do not let his prestige of being an
accepted bible commentator blind you to his errors. It's only if you
stay IN Christ, that you remain in his love.
Moving along to other points you brought up.John 3Quote: The quotation in John 3 simply talks about our condition before being adopted (Ephesians 2:3).
It's not official.
Romans 8:23 (NIV)
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the
Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to
sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
John 3 reveals the condition the whole of mankind is in if we don't
accept Jesus. Condemned already. If you disown Jesus, lose faith in
Jesus, you revert back to default: not saved. That was my point.
I know it's not talking about disowning: it's talking about what
we are without him. Already condemned.Quote: As for your disagreement with using unconditional? Sorry, quoting John 3 doesn't negate it,
anywhere near the bible.
There are conditions.
- God places conditions on justification (want to be declared righteous? want
his wrath passing over you? then accept the passover lamb): accept Jesus or
stay condemned.
- Salvation from sin nature / from the flesh, also has conditions: walk in the Spirit
(not merely have the Spirit in you, without wielding him; no! You better use him to
kill the flesh).
Romans 8:13 (NIV)
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body,
you will live.
- Salvation from the lake of fire: you need to be written in the book
of life and not be blotted out. Depending on the manuscript, there's a
verse that outright says we can be blotted out after being written in,
others just imply it. And yet others outright say, you must be written
in the book: that is the condition. It is NOT without conditions /
unconditional.
Revelation 20:15 (NIV)
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life
was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 3:5 (NIV)
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed
in white. I will never blot out the name of that person
from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name
before my Father and his angels.
Psalm 69:28 (NIV)
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.
Revelation 22:19 (KJV)
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book
of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the
book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things
which are written in this book.
Conditions, conditions, conditions.
NOT unconditional / without conditions. There are plenty of
conditions in order to be saved in every possible sense of
the word.
From God's wrath, the lake of fire, and from sin itself.
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:08 pm
[continued] "Symbolic Language"Micah Seven Eighteen John 15 is a parable, so it is not to be taken as absolute literalist language. It isn't to say that people were true disciples and then not, but rather talking from the perspective of what they claim to be (in the vine, they claim to be Christians),
didn't help me understand. And what about "out of the vine" and not abiding?
What is that referring to? What is the parable talking about there?
Every aspect of the parable must be explained. You didn't explain that half.
Symbolic language often describes things better than the plain. And
symbolic language does not inhibit communicating the exactness of
something literal. Like the parable of the tares and the wheat
using harvest analogy to describe the end of the world. The symbolic
language exactly describes what will literally happen. Weeds/tares
gathered and thrown in the fire (sinners gathered and thrown into
the lake of fire). Then the wheat gathered and stored in a barn,
(righteous gathered, thus saved). The harvest = the end of the age.
The reapers = the angels. The field = the world. The angels will
gather sinners at the end of the age to burn them up and they'll
gather the righteous to save them. And to quote the parable and
its explanation outright so you see I'm not forcing this:
The Parable of the Weeds
Matthew 13:24-30 (NIV)
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man
who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping,
his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When
the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good
seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may
uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie
them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’”
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Matthew 13:36-43 (NIV)
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came
to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of
the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the
enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age,
and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be
at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels,
and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and
all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the
righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Likewise, with the symbolic language used in John 15 and Romans 11.
Branches that were once in him, but bear no fruit, will get thrown into
the fire / cast out. Reminds me of another parable with the same message:
Matthew 25:26-30 (NIV)
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew
that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have
not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money
on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would
have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one
who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and
they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what
they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless
servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Believers who were once in him, but become useless, bearing
no fruit, get thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 13:50 (NIV)
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-51 (NIV)
50 The master of that servant will come on a day when
he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware
of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a
place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping
and gnashing of teeth.
These are his servants that belonged to him.
Not branches from another tree who refuse to graft themselves in and
never belonged (were never truly saved). No, these were his. These
were in him, chosen by him, working for him, but became useless.
Paul continues that branch analogy: branches that were taken from other
olive trees, wild ones, were grafted into the natural one (thus saved);
the natural tree is the tree of God, Israel, his chosen nation; Christ
being the root. And you can get broken off of the tree due to unbelief.
The tree of Israel is the only body getting saved: you're either in it
or you're not. And some, who will be in it, both Gentile and Jew, will
get broken off if they fall into unbelief.
Romans 11:19-21 (NIV)
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be
grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief,
and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if
God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Throwing Things We Have Away Continuing with Hebrews though.
The "Once Saved, Always Saved" position does not account
for the rest of the epistle to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:35-39 (NIV)
35 So do not throw away your confidence;
it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you
have done the will of God, you will receive
what he has promised. 37 For,
“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[a]
38 And,
“But my righteous[b] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[c]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back
and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 10:37 Isaiah 26:20; Hab. 2:3
b. Hebrews 10:38 Some early manuscripts But the righteous
c. Hebrews 10:38 Hab. 2:4 (see Septuagint)
Hebrews 3:6 (NIV)
6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house.
And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our
confidence and the hope in which we glory.
Confidence can be thrown away?
If we hold firmly? Thus the possibility of not holding firmly?
Yes, because losing faith happens.
You lose confidence.
You lose hope.
Ergo
Hebrews 10:23 (NIV)
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess,
for he who promised is faithful.
God's prophecies, warning of upcoming danger,
can be trusted. He is faithful. So, we best keep believing
or else—end up like the Israelites in the desert: who lose
faith on the journey to the promised land for not holding
unswervingly to their trust / faith in God.
Their destination: Canaan, the promised land.
Our destination: the New Jerusalem.
Thus the warning to not lose hope/faith/confidence, but persevere,
endure, in that confidence. "Once saved, always saved"
turns Paul into an unstable apostle who likes to waste paper
(writing about perseverance, when he doesn't have to warn anyone
to persevere / endure anything at all, since if they were truly saved,
they wouldn't need any warning in writing, God would just move them
to persevere since they were a chosen vessel to begin with, right?).
Waste of paper.Matthew 7:21-23Quote: He foreknew them (check Matthew 7:21-23; consider I never knew you, not I knew you once but you lost salvation so now I don't). He predestines these people whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Jesus; if someone fails to do this, then they cannot be one of these people (1 John 2:19).
At no point does it say they ever were his servants,
just that they're claiming a bunch of things that are
baseless. And who said they're even telling the truth?
Desperate people say anything just to get in at that
point.
Cross reference and you get a feel for who these
people truly are:
Matthew 7:21-23(NIV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my
Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your
name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away
from me, you evildoers!’
Luke 13:26-27 (NIV)
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you
taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come
from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Merely using his name like some magic spell?
Sharing the same street?
Breathing the same air?
Were they ever assigned a task from him?
Were they ever his servants?
If anything, these people are not the ones
being described in Hebrews 6:4-6. nor by 2 Peter 2:20-21,
nor in the parables I previously quoted, where there,
they are hand picked servants who didn't do the master's will.
He does know them.
And has them kicked out.
There will be ex-servants weeping and gnashing their teeth.
And there will be people he never knew weeping and gnashing
their teeth.1 John 2You brought up 1 John 2:19, about people he foreknew,
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that
the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This
is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but
they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none
of them belonged to us. (NIV)
Question: why is it necessary to tell them (those that DID stay)
to remain in Christ?
Same chapter:
1 John 2:24 (NIV)
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains
in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 2:28 (NIV)
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we
may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 2:24 reflects exactly what happened in the exodus out of Egypt: if you didn't
maintain the original faith in God, that you started out with, at the beginning of
this journey, then you're not going to make it.
People are reading certain assumptions into the word "foreknew" and
"predestinated" and "anointed". The assumptions being that:
1. such people can never ever lose their salvation once they've been chosen/anointed
2. such people can't have the ability to fall away from Christ
John's letter actually makes more sense when these assumptions are eliminated:
the anointing was still on them, but the anointing is something that can be
ignored, thus not continuing in him, and ending up ashamed, because we had
all the power in the world, the heavenly gift, the Spirit of God in us,
and still couldn't remain in him. Thus, ashamed if we don't continue in him.
Similarly, this is why we can grieve the Holy Spirit, because we still have
the free will to oppose him, quench him, ignore him; he doesn't force us:
Ephesians 4:30 (NIV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed
for the day of redemption.
But it is to our shame if we ignore the Holy Spirit.
Our goal should be to allow the apostles to remain cohesive with everything
they have ever written. Butchering a few verses in John's epistles that
make him contradict himself in other passages, of his same letter,
(let alone same chapter), will never be the way. Same with Paul.
All those IF IF IF IF statements are meaningless to write and
warn people of, if "once saved always saved" were true. Otherwise,
these people do not need any encouragement nor warning to endure
until the end because God is going to make them do it anyway.Quote: otherwise what you're doing is negating plain teaching of Scripture elsewhere. Tota scriptura. You need to look at all of Scripture. Quote: I'm curious, what did you mean when you said "Don't let apostates distort Paul's words here..."? Are you implying that those who hold to OSAS are apostate?
away from the faith that YHWH described, that Jesus described and that the
apostle Paul describes in the totality of his epistles. It's only based on
a distortion of Paul's epistles that we get such concepts. Not surprisingly Peter
warned that Paul's epistles were hard to understand and people were distorting
them, as they do the other scriptures, carried away by the error of the lawless.
2 Peter 3:15-17 (NIV)
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom
that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his
letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters
contain some things that are hard to understand, which
ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned,
be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the
error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
A concept I take it you haven't seen yet is:Having Faith that Saved You, But then Losing that FaithBelieving God's warning of impending doom, and acting accordingly out of
belief to that warning, has always meant salvation while you
maintained belief. But after being saved once, not everyone stayed saved;
after believing once, they didn't maintain belief.
Consider the wilderness wanderings: they had enough belief to be saved /
be delivered out of Egypt (their bondage), but not enough faith to reach
the promised land (thus, did not stay saved, but died in the desert).
And yes, they did start out with saving faith inwardly, that's why they
were saved outwardly, (and thus why they were justified, not suffering
God's wrath, but having his wrath pass over them in the first place):
Hebrews 11:29 (NIV)
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land;
but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
But then they rebelled...
Hebrews 3:16-19 (NIV)
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses
led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years?
Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the
wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter
his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were
not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Because of their unbelief! That unbelief led to rebellion and
disobedience. Unbelief they did not start out with. Otherwise
why did they leave Egypt? Saying, "Uh, YHWH is not real, y'all
are crazy, I'm not leaving" would suggest, "I don't believe".
But acting like, "Wow, YHWH is real, you all are speaking the truth,
let's get out of here". Suggests, "we believe. Let's go".
After having saving faith, that saved them from Egypt, they lost that faith,
unbelief developed on the way there, which give birth to rebellion,
disobedience and distrust in what God was doing. Same people in both chapters.
(Hebrews 11 and Hebrews 3). Yet these same people (minus Caleb and
Joshua) ended with unbelief. They couldn't enter the promise, after
being saved from the bondage in Egypt. Once saved, did not stay saved.
Once believed, did not continue believing. They had faith when the
Red Sea parted, but lacked faith to enter the promised land. They lost
faith on the way there. They did not endure in saving faith.
So, they did not enter. They did not receive the promise.
I'll answer the following here since it's related:Quote: You're saying some can be justified, but can lose that justification [...]
lose faith in God? Why will God's wrath pass over you if you stop
taking steps of faith? Justification is being declared righteous.
He doesn't consider you righteous if you keep on rebelling in unbelief,
despite having once believed at the start of the journey:
Isaiah 63:10 (NIV)
10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
The above is describing the wicked generation in the desert that never made it.
YHWH saved them out of Egypt, where they demonstrated faith.
But when they rebel, stop trusting in him, in his instructions, and in
his promises, thus continued in their rebellion, he turned against them
and they felt his wrath. Once saved by God, but didn't remain saved,
God kills you himself.
BTW,Quote: Those He called He also justified. These people are justified. What is justification? Forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus (Romans 3:21-26).
is by faith, and faith in God, yes.
A person who loses faith in God does not stay justified.Quote: (they were never not going to end up in Hell, as they ultimately end up in Hell), so it's a pointless statement to make. This is clarified even more in the last part of the chain.
is hinging on, then consider the chain broken.
Continuing then...
Some Israelites had enough faith to apply the lamb's blood on
their doorpost. Thus justified by their faith. God didn't save them
because the Israelites were oh-so righteous, but because of (1)
a promise and (2) they heeded the warnings that demonstrated belief.
By doing the "ridiculous" act (ridiculous from man's perspective)
that would save them, they were justified, declared righteous,
thus wrath passed over them. Why it sounds ridiculous: how does
blood on your door prevent "plague" from entering a house? It doesn't.
It just demonstrated faith in God. So it was a total act of faith
to apply the blood and be saved. That faith justified them and is what
got them saved. Then they lost that faith they once had—which
is absurd on their part: they believed the bit about applying
the lamb's blood to their door posts; so, why after witnessing
the Red Sea parting, which was infinitely greater, and an act
they could actually see live in action (not in the middle of the night,
next day wake up, oh look, dead people), no they saw the water
part right in front of their eyes—how can they see that and then
start doubting?! They had enough faith to believe a little bit of
lamb's blood can save you, since it was the culmination of 9 previous
plagues, but once things settled down, got a little desolate,
they did not have enough faith to to make it to the promised land,
despite the miraculous signs that still accompanied them
(miraculous provision of food and water), they developed unbelief.
The journey, and the obstacles they met on that journey, killed the faith
of most, a faith they all started out with, which justified them and got
them saved out of the world to begin with. They just didn't maintain it.
You cannot accuse them of never having had saving faith. Saving faith
was necessary to make it out! There is salvation on both a physical level
and an inward level. One is not greater than the other. We need both.
The Israelites were saved physically, because they were inwardly saved:
trusting in YHWH. And that led to them walking out of Egypt. But because
they were obstinate, doubted along the way, thus did not maintain saving
faith inwardly, then they did not maintain it outwardly either.
(Inwardly: learning to trust in God during hard times, obey his instructions
even if the commands would seem to provoke their death, or bring immediate
negative consequences, but trust that it would all work out for the better
if they persevered; Outwardly: making it to the promised land, staying alive
in the desert). But since they did not maintain that inward faith, they did
not enter the land (were not outwardly saved because they lost that inward
faith in God).
For us, we're being saved on a spiritual level now, renewing our minds,
saving our souls first:
Romans 12:2 (NIV)
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his
good, pleasing and perfect will.
Ephesians 4:22-24 (NIV)
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old
self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in
the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like
God in true righteousness and holiness.
...but the redemption of our bodies (the physical salvation) comes later
—though I'm pretty sure his commands saved us from physically destructive
lifestyles already, there is yet more physical salvation that awaits:
the redemption of the body, come time.
This is why Paul in the same letter, in the same breath, can say we're
children of God, but still not adopted yet. He's referring to adoption on
two different levels:
Inward (Now)
Romans 8:15-16 (NIV)
15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in
fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to
sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba,[b] Father.” 16 The
Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 8:15 The Greek word for adoption to sonship is a term referring
to the full legal standing of an adopted male heir in Roman culture; also in
verse 23.
b. Romans 8:15 Aramaic for father
Outward (Later)
Romans 8:23 (NIV)
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship,
the redemption of our bodies.
Us:
Inwardly, in our renewed minds, adopted.
In body, not yet adopted.
If that inward soul stays true/trusting in God, our bodies will be adopted.
If that inward soul does not stay true/trusting, our bodies will not be adopted.
Even if we all had renewed minds at some point at the start, thus saved,
unless that faith endured, we're not getting adopted.
Israelites:
Inwardly, trusting in God [saved on the inside]
In body, YHWH saved them from Egypt. [saved on the outside]
Inwardly, in their minds, not saved/stopped trusting due to trials. [not saved on the inside]
Which eventually led to their bodies not being saved, but killed in the desert. [ not saved on the outside]
Inwardly, Caleb and Joshua, continued trusting in God through their trials [saved on the inside]
In body, made it to the promised land. [saved on the outside]
If we don't renew our minds, if we don't learn to trust God, and maintain that faith
/ trust in his instructions and warnings, even when things look desperate,
then just like the Israelites, we're not getting in. We need to come out of
the world (the flesh nature, relying on the five senses, worldly ways) and
instead learn to depend on God, on what God said, his commands, his prophets,
not grumble against him. And not quench his Holy Spirit, not trample
his blood underfoot, stay in the repentance he granted us, not returning
to our filth, nor desiring to.
Justification, being declared righteous in the eyes of God, thus wrath passing
over you, can be lost.
Salvation can be lost, despite having been saved some time in the past
Salvation is something that is only maintained as long as you continue believing,
and trusting in, the God who called you out.
All of the Israelites were elect, predestined to come out of Egypt, and called
out of Egypt.
Genesis 15:16 (NIV)
16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here,
for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
The nation of Israel are the elect people.
And yet, despite Israel being predestined
to a certain purpose, not all made it to
the destination.
Romans 11:28 (NIV)
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake;
but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the
patriarchs,
And yet not every individual who was saved from Egypt stayed saved.
Why are we twisting the definitions for words like "predestined", "elect",
"foreknew" and then using them to negate earlier examples of scripture
that clearly demonstrate: once saved, didn't remain saved. Salvation lost.
And New Testament parables of God punishing servants (people he knows),
casting them out with the hypocrites, along with the ones he never knew
in the first place.
How we reconcile Romans 8 & 9 with the whole canon of scripture is
tricky because we have overwhelming examples of God prophesying
that he will punish former servants, whom God knew, but kicked out
for being fruitless, useless, not doing their job correctly.
Divine servants as well.
Jude 1:6 (NIV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority
but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in
darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on
the great Day.
2 Peter 2:4 (NIV)
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent
them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b]
to be held for judgment;
Footnotes:
a. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
God knows them. But they did evil.
At most, we can say some are special vessels given a certain purpose, but not all.
What about the common vessels? Are only the special vessels partaking in salvation?
All I'm sure about is that YHWH will have his "Israel" at the end of the day
(thus sovereignty), comprised of Jew and Gentile alike. Whether that means
each individual in that "Israel" was selected by name regardless of what happens
and of their free will, or that "Israel" gets comprised out of a process of blotting
out, writing in as the play unfolds, I can't say either way. I don't see enough biblical
evidence to say one is right and the other is not.Quote: To maintain your view, you will have to mangle this text to mean things it cannot mean. Words have meanings and you can't change them even if you may want to. We all have traditions and blind spots and I believe this is one of your's, sister. I used to share the same one you have (for real, I even used the same verses), when I was a younger Christian, but by God's grace He has freed me from it. I hope that He may do the same with you.
"The Golden Chain of Redemption" is one such tradition. And if getting saved
from the lake of fire is all it teaches, it's broken. Not to mention, it is
"logic" some man made up (as if that's what we're suppose to put our faith in
more than the God-breathed scriptures themselves). The chain clearly breaks
when applied to the justification of the Israelites in the Egypt. Their
justification is not different than ours: faith in God/Jesus.
Jude 1:5 (ESV)
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus,
who saved[a] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those
who did not believe.
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:5 Some manuscripts although you fully knew it,
that the Lord who once saved
(edit: You had to be in Christ to make it out of Egypt in the first place.)ConclusionI underestimated that I would have so much say to describe
my point, LOL. But my point is: it's not just hell that we're saved
from, but we're being saved from the rebellious nature in our flesh
that is hostile and won't submit to God's instructions. We may be
saved at one point, but unless the inward trust in God is maintained
(that belief in his warnings, instructions, and promises held on to,
despite the physical circumstances looking dire), we will not stay
saved, despite having had saving faith in the beginning of the
journey. That is the theme that cannot be broken in scripture.
Not a Golden chain that makes incomplete assumptions and that
doesn't hold up to Old Testament examples of justification by faith.
Also you never answered my question:cristobela Where is Paul Washer getting, "bring in all thy bills father, that I may see
what they owe thee"? This is the second time I noticed you posting this
video, but I didn't address it then (not sure why). He makes it sound like
he's reading from the bible, but that's not in there...?
to be scripture and not being able to find it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:52 pm
So you're aware, I did start writing a response to this today, so don't think I'm ignoring you. You did write a lot, so it may take me some time to reply to it. My wife would like to spend time with me, so seeing as this post isn't going anywhere, I plan to get back to it and continue tomorrow. I don't know if I'll finish it tomorrow or not, but that's when I'd like to get back to it at least. I also have some stuff to address on Facebook (actually, by God's grace, pretty much the same topic), I believe, so I may start/do that before getting back to this.
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:05 am
Jewish at Heart Hello, everyone! I know you haven't seen me around here before, but I am a new member of your guild. I've been hoping to find somebody I can confide in and ask advice of; I don't want to let my immediate family down, nor do I want my close church friends to know and be let down by me, so I have told nobody about this before. I have been so depressed lately that it is unreal. I haven't felt this way in a long time, and it seems like mostly it's my fault. My family and I are going through a really large storm, so naturally times are going to be tough right now. I have faith that everything is going to work out A-okay, though! My problem is myself. You see, back in November/December, my ex-boyfriend and I went a little further than we should have, multiple times. Sometimes I would be okay with it; other times I would feel guilty and condemned. During those times, in the back of my mind I knew it was wrong and I kept asking God to forgive me, but at the same time I was curious and wanted to see what would happen and did nothing to stop it even though I knew I should and God was not pleased with it. I feel terrible about it; the other day at work I was reading about how God had rejected Saul because of his consistent pattern of disobedience to Him. I recognized that this was a consistent pattern of disobedience in my own life. The first time I did this I wasn't even saved, I was a backslider, but this second time I've fully confessed to be a Christian, even while knowingly sinning. Christians aren't supposed to act that way; it hurt my witness to my ex-boyfriend because he wasn't fully committed to Christ, and it's hurt my relationship with my God more than I can say. I regret this so much. I keep asking for God to forgive me, but I still feel dirty and ashamed of myself. I am afraid of God rejecting me like He rejected Saul. I'm also afraid of God taking me back and restoring me to Himself, and then turning around and doing the same thing over again. In the back of my mind I hear that little voice saying, "You said last time after God saved you that you would never do it again; look at what you did. You did it again. What makes you think that you'll hold up better next time?" I'm weak, spiritually, and I need advice and help. Hello, I just want to let you know that you're not alone in this. I struggle with very similar issues and patterns of sin, and frequently feel the same way that you do. However, I'd like to quote some verses that I feel may be of help; "...as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."(Psalm 103:12)If you have faith in Jesus and repent of your sins, they are completely and entirely removed by God, according to His loving mercy. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)If you belong to Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation for you! "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." (Matthew 18:21-22)Jesus here says that his disciples are to forgive our brothers and sisters whenever they sin against us, with no limited number of times. This is important here, because Jesus never told his disciples to do things that He Himself didn't do! Of course, all this being said, there is no excuse for continual sinning. All Christians give into sin, but we have been called by God to be conformed to the image of His son, not simply to have some 'afterlife insurance'. Ask God to forgive you, change your heart, make you truly sorry (if you have doubts about your sincerity), and then surrender you fears and doubts to Him. If you're really wanting to be free from your sin, He will set you free (John 8:36), although it will be a long process! I'll be praying for you, sister! : 3 As for the two of you, do you really think that it's a good idea to have a doctrinal debate in the midst of a struggling believer asking for advice? C'mon, people. This is the advice forum. There is an entire section for debates, not to mention an actual thread for this specific issue. I think I'd actually like to be involved with this discussion myself, but let's not allow our disagreements to take priority over encouraging a fellow believer.
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:17 pm
Red Wight As for the two of you, do you really think that it's a good idea to have a doctrinal debate in the midst of a struggling believer asking for advice? C'mon, people. This is the advice forum. There is an entire section for debates, not to mention an actual thread for this specific issue. I think I'd actually like to be involved with this discussion myself, but let's not allow our disagreements to take priority over encouraging a fellow believer. The issue is relevant to the OP's concern about being rejected by God. Salvation can be lost, even after being selected and anointed, if one doesn't stay in Christ, but abandons him, after already receiving the Holy Spirit. I was reassuring her that she did not sound like this at all. Sound doctrine is comforting. And that was the point behind my every reply: offering comfort by considering all of what Moses, Jesus, and his apostles had to say. Replying became all the more necessary in light of what Micah said. It could mislead people into thinking that whoever arrives at the conclusion, "we can lose salvation", arrived at that position by ignoring passages of scripture, instead of considering them all. And that's not the case. :l I have considered these passages already. BTW, God doesn't forgive unless people truly repent. Luke 17:3 (NIV)
3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
Footnotes:
a. Luke 17:3 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman.
The same way he forgives is how he expects us to forgive. True repentance is a condition to receive God's forgiveness. Staying in Jesus is another condition as well. "Repentance" and "staying in Christ" are necessary to avoid condemnation. In light of the information I brought up, I'll see what Micah has to say. You said you're going to reply, but whether in a separate topic or not, I'll leave that up to you. Quote me regardless so I don't miss it.
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:54 pm
cristobela Red Wight As for the two of you, do you really think that it's a good idea to have a doctrinal debate in the midst of a struggling believer asking for advice? C'mon, people. This is the advice forum. There is an entire section for debates, not to mention an actual thread for this specific issue. I think I'd actually like to be involved with this discussion myself, but let's not allow our disagreements to take priority over encouraging a fellow believer. The issue is relevant to the OP's concern about being rejected by God. Salvation can be lost, even after being selected and anointed, if one doesn't stay in Christ, but abandons him, after already receiving the Holy Spirit. I was reassuring her that she did not sound like this at all. Sound doctrine is comforting. And that was the point behind my every reply: offering comfort by considering all of what Moses, Jesus, and his apostles had to say. Replying became all the more necessary in light of what Micah said. It could mislead people into thinking that whoever arrives at the conclusion, "we can lose salvation", arrived at that position by ignoring passages of scripture, instead of considering them all. And that's not the case. :l I have considered these passages already. BTW, God doesn't forgive unless people truly repent. Luke 17:3 (NIV)
3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
Footnotes:
a. Luke 17:3 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman.
The same way he forgives is how he expects us to forgive. True repentance is a condition to receive God's forgiveness. Staying in Jesus is another condition as well. "Repentance" and "staying in Christ" are necessary to avoid condemnation. In light of the information I brought up, I'll see what Micah has to say. You said you're going to reply, but whether in a separate topic or not, I'll leave that up to you. Quote me regardless so I don't miss it. I agree that this is relevant to the discussion, as it really affects the advice everyone is giving. I'd like to think we both care about her hearing what is true, so we are interacting with each other because we disagree on what is true here. I don't think giving advice in a thread like this has to mean we all just throw our advice out there and none of us gets to interact with each other. I think I'll leave it up to the OP, if that's okay. If she doesn't mind and it's beneficial to her, I'm glad to continue here. If she doesn't want us to, we can talk elsewhere. By the way, pretty sure I've finished up my reply for your first post. I'll move on to the second tomorrow, maybe. What do you think about us continuing here?
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:28 pm
If Jewish At Heart is alright with it, that sounds fair! I'd also like to apologize to the two of you. Looking back, I used some unnecessary attitude in my last post. Confrontational arrogance was a big sin a struggled with before becoming a Christian, and I guess I still haven't gotten over it yet ^_^;
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:12 pm
Red Wight If Jewish At Heart is alright with it, that sounds fair! I'd also like to apologize to the two of you. Looking back, I used some unnecessary attitude in my last post. Confrontational arrogance was a big sin a struggled with before becoming a Christian, and I guess I still haven't gotten over it yet ^_^; Thank you, everyone, for your advice, well-wishes, and especially, your prayers. You have no idea how much it means to me to have a community of believers that are supportive and caring. I'm feeling a whole lot better than I was when I wrote my post back on the fourteenth. I still struggle with the guilt and condemnation from time to time, but much less often now. I've also taken to reminding myself about God's love, mercy, grace, and how He can see into our hearts and see who we truly are. And knowing that He can see how I'm truly feeling about this and why I'm feeling this way - even when I don't even know, myself, sometimes - is comforting to me. He's willing to use that if we're willing to be honest with Him. I'm definitely a work in progress, and I've been spending more time in prayer about this than I had been before. As people in my church say, "I'm a mess, but I'm God's mess now!" I don't mind if you all continue the conversation here in this thread. Feel free to. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:10 am
Red Wight If Jewish At Heart is alright with it, that sounds fair! I'd also like to apologize to the two of you. Looking back, I used some unnecessary attitude in my last post. Confrontational arrogance was a big sin a struggled with before becoming a Christian, and I guess I still haven't gotten over it yet ^_^; I didn't get that from you, but it can be difficult to catch tone over a message. I forgive you, brother.
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