Karma

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Whether you follow it or not, it's an idea that comes through strong in the Neo-Pagan world. There are different forms, from the Hindu reincarnation theory, to the (dare I say?) Wiccan-ish Threefold and Tenfold Laws.

But how does this work? Upon what basis are we judged? How are the energies able to come back upon us? Or, if you don't believe in karma, why don't they?

This is a thread to discuss your beliefs, or lack of beliefs in karma, and why.  

[Aquajade]

I think that Karma is one of the most natural things, and, if messed with can be turned on you as quick as a heartbeat. Some people have excessive bad luck and some have exsessive good luck, but both exsist in everyone, where that person is conscious of it or not. I, myself generally have good luck and therefore good Karma, but it does turn on me at times, but I know that is its way.

So, do I believe in Karma?..... that would be a yes.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

But why do you believe that? How does karma actually work? Most can agree on the "what goes around comes around" maxim, but how is it actually brought about?  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

But why do you believe that? How does karma actually work? Most can agree on the "what goes around comes around" maxim, but how is it actually brought about?

I've always pictured it as being similar to ripples on a pond; everything you do, good or bad is a ripple that gets sent out. Those good or bad actions then encounter people and get deflected beck. The extent or severity of the action sent out will determine the force with which it is returned.

And I have no idea if that makes any sense right now; my mind is completely fried after working a 12 hour backshift.  

[WickedDecember]

I believe in both the three fold law (though i am not a wiccan) and the next life deal.
i think that its the way the universe stays balanced mostly.  

[Shadow Chyld]

WickedDecember

I believe in both the three fold law and the next life deal.
i think that its the way the universe stays balanced mostly.

That about sums my beliefs up in a nutshell.  

[MOD66]

i kinda belive in karma but not a long term or after life kinda thing. like the time i cut a kid on the hand (pure accedent) he stod up and punched me in the eye sweatdrop  

[Aquajade]

Gypsy Blue

Nihilistic Seraph

But why do you believe that? How does karma actually work? Most can agree on the "what goes around comes around" maxim, but how is it actually brought about?

I've always pictured it as being similar to ripples on a pond; everything you do, good or bad is a ripple that gets sent out. Those good or bad actions then encounter people and get deflected beck. The extent or severity of the action sent out will determine the force with which it is returned.

And I have no idea if that makes any sense right now; my mind is completely fried after working a 12 hour backshift.

You explained that better than I could.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Alright, I'll outline my views, and you guys can take pot-shots on them, how's that?

The effect of karma works as a balance between intent and effect, main emphasis being placed on effect.

It works by us all being connected. Whether you see it as the spirit of the Divine, or the unconscious mind touching everything and everyone, whatever the belief, it means that we are all interconnected, and by Newton's "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

What I wonder about it when people talk about "keeping the balance," as if the world was literally on a scale, and everything was black and white. understand if you mean in a social sense, but I don't think most people mean that.  

[MOD66]

Nihilistic Seraph

Alright, I'll outline my views, and you guys can take pot-shots on them, how's that?

The effect of karma works as a balance between intent and effect, main emphasis being placed on effect.

It works by us all being connected. Whether you see it as the spirit of the Divine, or the unconscious mind touching everything and everyone, whatever the belief, it means that we are all interconnected, and by Newton's "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

What I wonder about it when people talk about "keeping the balance," as if the world was literally on a scale, and everything was black and white. understand if you mean in a social sense, but I don't think most people mean that.

sounds good to me but what ever floats your boat really. and the whole black and white thing, there is no such thing its all gray, metaphoricly speeking  

[jessicamundi]

Well since karma is a philosophical reflection of Newtonian physics, primarily "Each and every action has an equal and opposite reaction," I would think that in general karma is given a pretty good grounding in reality. The only exception would be in the ideas of physics that have been developing since the 20th century that have been gradually eating away at many Newtonian physics theories. And so, I think karma has a degree of truth that is definitely more than 50%, enough to take heed for sure. And even if you don't believe in karma, it seems common sense to at least know what you're getting into before you make a conscious decision to change reality in even the most microsopic way. This is what some call awareness or presence.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

What I wonder about it when people talk about "keeping the balance," as if the world was literally on a scale, and everything was black and white. understand if you mean in a social sense, but I don't think most people mean that.

I don't think many people know what they're talking about when they say that; it's presumtuious to think that we know what that balance is to begin with, let alone to attempt to maintain it. The only sort of balance that we can achieve is personal balance, and that for me is what karma, or whathave you, is all about. This "balance" thing seems to come up a lot between people who tend to be very black-white in their views on magic: if a spell in any way will infringe on a person's free will, they won't cast it sort of thing.  

[WebenBanu]

I'm largely in agreement with Seraph. Ma'at has a function which is somewhat similar to the NeoPagan concept of karma, which seems much like what you described. The concept of ma'at describes both a state and the system which maintains that state, and there is also a goddess named Ma'at Who personifies that concept. Ma'at is somewhat difficult to define, but as you explained it involves a way of thinking about every part of the world as being connected to every other part.

Ma'at is often portrayed as a scale, and is probably the origin of the scale imagery you mentioned. Actions are weighed on the scales of ma'at- your action goes in one pan, the result is weighed in the other, and that result is in equal proportion to the action so that the scale balances. In ancient Egypt, figures of Ma'at were worn by judges and Ma'at came to embody justice- you still see Her in courts of law today, btw. That blindfolded lady with the sword and the scale is a Greek adaptation of Ma'at. However, what you get from Ma'at's scales is not a value judgment- there's no "black and white" here and sometimes I wonder if Ma'at is really even concerned with "good or bad." She doesn't punish or reward, She simply reacts- and as there's no absolute code of Thou Shalt's or Thou Shalt Not's which would tell us what is or is not ma'at, each situation has to be weighed and considered carefully in turn to determine how it might affect the rest of the system.

That probably sounded really cryptic, so let me try to explain myself here.^_^ Think of the world as a system of relationships between all things- plant, animal, mineral, spirit, everything from environmental phenomena to political organizations, ethnic and cultural groups, gods, everything- and this world with all of its interlocking parts is a great mechanism whose product (when it's running smoothly) is life, and particularly a type of life wherein every piece of that mechanism is able to realize its fullest potential. Each of us, and everything else in this world, can be thought of as gears in that machine- and since all those gears are designed to interlock and interact, anything which affects the proper action of one "gear" will eventually and in some way affect that of all the others. If one gear finds itself oppressed, unhealthy, or otherwise obstructed in such a way that it can not fulfill its designated function, then it's as if that gear was broken or rusty, and all the gears which interact with it will also begin to falter and the action of the entire mechanism will eventually be compromised. If that gear is cleansed, oiled, or otherwise restored to its original state then the productivity of the entire mechanism is enhanced. As the end product of this mechanism- ma'at- is something which we all want and need, then it just makes sense to act in such a way that you align yourself with your own potential and help or allow others to realize theirs as much as you can.

Therefore it follows that hurtful, spiteful, or harmful actions are generally not advisable; if you screw with any one of the gears you're screwing not only with them but also with yourself and everyone and everything else while you're at it. Ma'at is the ideal, so you just want to chose whichever among your options has the greatest likelihood of increasing ma'at- and figuring out how to do that is a lifelong lesson in itself.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Gypsy Blue

Nihilistic Seraph

What I wonder about it when people talk about "keeping the balance," as if the world was literally on a scale, and everything was black and white. understand if you mean in a social sense, but I don't think most people mean that.

I don't think many people know what they're talking about when they say that; it's presumtuious to think that we know what that balance is to begin with, let alone to attempt to maintain it. The only sort of balance that we can achieve is personal balance, and that for me is what karma, or whathave you, is all about. This "balance" thing seems to come up a lot between people who tend to be very black-white in their views on magic: if a spell in any way will infringe on a person's free will, they won't cast it sort of thing.

I just got this flashback to a conversation, I think it was in the Witchcraft thread.

Person - Well of course you need the triple Goddess to be balanced!
Other Person - Uh, no you don't. Technically, you just want two deities for a balance between energies.
Person - A table doesn't balance on two legs, duh
Other Person - WICCA ISN'T A BLOODY TABLE!  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I think I get you there Banu. It's not good vs bad, it's more benefit vs harm.

Which people easily place morality upon, but it can be argued that that the morality in this case doesn't apply.