Wiccans Hating Wiccans: The fight for what's right?

[VampyrZenite]

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13177624&page=33

It's sad. I still want answers. Someone politely correct me if you think I'm wrong. I'm running out of reasons to look into Wicca and/or Paganism and I'm out of sources.  

[Eric Wolfborn]

VampyrZenite

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13177624&page=33

It's sad. I still want answers. Someone politely correct me if you think I'm wrong. I'm running out of reasons to look into Wicca and/or Paganism and I'm out of sources.

You got defensive and played the 'I'm more knowledgable than you' card. Then you got slapped. I see no problem.  

[Feryal Riska]

Wicca doesn't have to be defined by Gardner - there are many other branches of Wicca that are very different. From the posting, they seem like a bunch of condescending snobs. You can learn about a religion from a book, but it also takes a lot of soul searching after absorbing these ideas. *shrugs*
It's really more of a difference of beliefs - one thing about Wicca and Paganism is a lot of the ideas and beliefs and those sorts of things aren't set in stone.
Buuuut you were being kind of snarky yourself, and some of the comebacks were deserved.  

[jessicamundi]

Semantics and excessive labeling, particularly labeling others
=
disintegration of civility in discussion

 

[blindfaith^_^]

Wicca is most definately defined by Gardner. He created the religion! To be Wiccan you have to follow the rules he set up, which include being initiated by a lineaged coven and learning the mysteries from them.

What your saying is like saying you can be Muslim and not follow the teachings of Mohammad, it doesn't work that way.

Of course one could still, in theory, worship the God and the Goddess from the Wiccan religion and not be Wiccan. Also one could learn the mysteries of Wicca or equally valid mysteries without being initiated or linegage, but you would have no way of verfying whether what one learned is Wiccan or not.

However, not in a lineaged coven=not Wiccan. It isn't a broad term without definitions. You can't just use a word and be that thing. If I came in here and proclaimed I was God, that would not make it true, and certain the term "God" has more space for interpretation than the term Wicca does.  

[blindfaith^_^]

jessicamundi

Semantics and excessive labeling, particularly labeling others
=
disintegration of civility in discussion

While this is true, the topic is about the definition of Wicca, which is established in the first post. If you come in with an agruement against this, you should be prepared to back up your claim and you should be ready for people to be overly harsh. While I'd like to think that the Ed is a place to explore ideas and concepts with open discussion. It often turns very quickly into many ganging up on the destener and if one isn't ready for that, one shouldn't post.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I've come to the conclusion that the M&R crew are generaly only polite to those they consider worthy, with the exception of a couple nicer people. They've had to deal with so many fluff-balls that it's understandable that they get snarky very easily.

But they are right about Wicca. But who cares about Wicca? If it doesn't fit what you believe, then toss it away and start fresh.  

[The Bookwyrm]

What you've gotten tangled up in is the good ol' Traditional vs. Progressive Wicca debate. Traditionalist hold the belief that in order to be Wiccan, one must follow the tradition as set out by Gardner, lineaged coven, initiation, etc. The Progressive, needless to say, does not hold the same belief. The two are often also called British Traditional and American Ecclectic.

We've had this debate here before, and I've found myself heatedly debating the Progressive side of the argument, and really have no wish to do so again because there is no right answer in the debate.

Quote:

What your saying is like saying you can be Muslim and not follow the teachings of Mohammad, it doesn't work that way.

Actually, that's a poor analogy. What these America Ecclectic trads are doing is following a faith that is influenced by the teachings of Gardner, just not exclusively; Catholic or Quaker, you're still Christian. They're both influenced by the same set of teachings, just differently. Same thing within Islam: The Sunni and Shi'a are both Islamic faiths, their followers entitled to call themselves Muslim, but they are vastly different sects. I personally view the debate about Tradtionalism and Progressive Wicca in the same light.

Quote:

Wicca is most definately defined by Gardner. He created the religion!

That's like saying to be Christian, I have to be Catholic since they founded the religion.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Blue, the difference between the Abrahamic beliefs and Wicca, is that while they are belief based, Wicca is practice based. There's no secret knowledge in those faiths, while in Wicca there is.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

Blue, the difference between the Abrahamic beliefs and Wicca, is that while they are belief based, Wicca is practice based. There's no secret knowledge in those faiths, while in Wicca there is.

The distinction is not simply belief in these Abrhamic faiths, Nihil; there are differences in practice among them as well. As for the secret knowledge contained within Wicca, I've honestly read an even split between the Traditional views and Progressive views lately, that I firmly believe there is no deffinate and succint answer in regards to which is right, and which is not. The Traditionalist are currently working very hard to draw a line between their definition of Wicca, but I really do believe that Wicca itself over the past 50 years has grown and expanded into something that's not going to be easily contained or redefined.  

[Eric Wolfborn]

Gypsy Blue

Nihilistic Seraph

Blue, the difference between the Abrahamic beliefs and Wicca, is that while they are belief based, Wicca is practice based. There's no secret knowledge in those faiths, while in Wicca there is.

The distinction is not simply belief in these Abrhamic faiths, Nihil; there are differences in practice among them as well. As for the secret knowledge contained within Wicca, I've honestly read an even split between the Traditional views and Progressive views lately, that I firmly believe there is no deffinate and succint answer in regards to which is right, and which is not. The Traditionalist are currently working very hard to draw a line between their definition of Wicca, but I really do believe that Wicca itself over the past 50 years has grown and expanded into something that's not going to be easily contained or redefined.

The important distinction is that wicca is orthopraxic. It's not Wicca once the practice deviates from what was put forth by the founder. With no governing body in control of the religion at large, dogmatic changes are impossible, therefor all changes afterwards live in themselves.

You'll note that, while Christianity is the all emcompassing name, each subset has it's own name, and it's own pratice. You can't claim to be catholic while accepting the book of Mormon as part of your holy text.

Wicca in and of itself is defined by Gardner, because no one else can claim it as theirs. If you change Gardner's rules and practice, it's no longer Wicca, but wicca-inspired.  

[VampyrZenite]

Evryone has goodpoints but what I don't understand now is how can Wicca have soo many secrets when it's only been around since the sixties? Wouldn't that be more like running into straight Paganism?  

[WebenBanu]

VampyrZenite

Evryone has goodpoints but what I don't understand now is how can Wicca have soo many secrets when it's only been around since the sixties?

Wicca is a mystery religion, and the very nature of a mystery religion is to have secrets.^_~ "Mysteries," as they exist within mystery religions, are things which can only be communicated through experience, not words- and that is what brings us to the importance of lineage. The experiences which communicate the mysteries are transmitted through carefully designed rituals for which a candidate must be prepared through carefully designed layers of training- and the knowledge of how to prepare and present these lessons are a part of the teachings which are passed down through lineaged covens. This is also the reason, btw, why a candidate needs to spend a certain amount of time with the coven before their actual initiation- it's not simply a matter of making sure that the individual fits in with the group (though that will probably become clear after the first few meetings), that person needs that time to be prepared for the initiation experience so that he or she can grasp and appreciate it fully. Folks who start up covens without being initiated in this way- folks without a traditional lineage- do not have the benefit of this knowledge or the experiences it conveys, and so they can not pass it on to others. Although many people misunderstand this fact, it's not elitism- it's just a functional, practical necessity. This is the sort of environment which is needed for training and exposure to the mysteries, which are the heart and soul of mystery religions such as Wicca.^_^