A Little History and a Little Fish (text wall, kinda)

[Jezehbelle]

(I'm horrible at thread titles)

Where do you think these earth-based (and otherwise pagan) religions are going?

As a recent fancy, partly due to Starlock's thread on converting, and the opening paragraph to a WitchVox article, I started looking up information on the growing Pagan community, and found the date for the religion to be the "third largest" religion in the United States being projected around 2010 or 2012. Currently, it's tying with Islam to be the fasted growing religion in America.

That last year gave me a light bulb connection, with the "end" of the Mayan calendar at December 21st, 2012. I've always thought that number was interesting, but I've been slow to make that connection (oop). It would be on the Winter Solstice, when the northern hemisphere celebrates the return of light regardless of the name (with lights -- Christmas decorations, Chanukah/Kwanza candles, etc).

On one of the sites I was reading, it made a note of it being the end of the Age of Pisces, and the beginning of the Age of Aquarius. I'm still reading up on this, but apparently the Orb of Influence of Aquarius started in the 1930's and we're fully in the Age of Aquarius (or it truly begins, depending on the astrologer) by 2600.

Which is, apparently, when Gerald Gardner started forming Wicca, or was initiated into the New Forest coven, later making it into a movement in the 1950's.

But the end of the Age of Pisces is interesting. Plainly -- it's a fish, which is generally associated with Jesus Christ. To quote Jesus in Matthew:

Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

The Age of Pisces began either in 1 AD or 498 AD, with its Orb of Influence beginning in 220 BC, but the last date (498 AD) is interesting, in particular. It was one-hundred years after Christianity became the state religion of Rome and pagan worship was banned. It was when the Roman Empire fell, and Europe tumbled into the Dark Ages, and, in comparison to other ages, has had more wars in it, making the Jesus-Quote above make sense.

If it's not apparent, I like history and all manners of boring things.

But it's also true that I like to think of life as cyclical, and it's possible that you might also agree.

Every year, during the last half of December, we celebrate a new life coming and the return of life with the death of the old, regardless of religion or culture.
That death is the return of the old life to its beginning as new life.

Even scientifically speaking (in non-technical terms), with no inklings of spirits or (metaphysical) energy, dead material (plants, animals, etc) become new and reused through decomposition and energy transition. If I eat a blackberry, the energy of that blackberry gets absorbed into my body to support my life. Through that blackberries' death, my life goes on. If I died in the woods and my body rots for however long it takes for a body to rot, the bits and pieces of myself would get absorbed into the ground (eventually, either by buggies or fungus or what-have-you), it's incredibly possible that the nutrients of myself could be used to feed the life of, for example, a blackberry bush. And then someone could come around and eat those blackberries and so on. (Not that they die from eating blackberries... I just realized that that makes it sound like poison.)

So the death of ancient pagan traditions fed the rise of Christianity in Europe (or a rehash of Judaism), I'm theorizing that the death of Christianity might feed the return of Paganism.

As of now, there are possibly hundreds of different pagan or earth-based beliefs.
In early Christianity, there were equally as many. Even Christian Pagans (gasp). In fact, the notion was so popular that Yahweh/YHWH was a sun god, that Christians were noted to directly worship the sun on the steps of St. Peter's Cathedral.

The parallels are interesting, at the very least.

Early Christians converted from their pagan faiths to Christianity. (I don't really count them as "converting" when it's from Judaism to Christianity, since they're both Abrahamic...)
And now "early" Pagans are mainly converting from Christianity to Paganism. Though it's not always the case, it does seem to be a predominate occurance.

It's all very interesting to me.
Not that I'm entirely predicting that earth-based and pagan religions will become predominate, but it's just very interesting. xp
I also would like to point out that, if neopaganism does grow to such a proportion, that we would have the same stumbles and tumbles like the Christians, with banning the worship of Christ or anything similar, just wanted to point out some connections or "oothat'sneeats" sweatdrop  

[The Bookwyrm]

Jezehbelle

(I'm horrible at thread titles)

Where do you think these earth-based (and otherwise pagan) religions are going?

As a recent fancy, partly due to Starlock's thread on converting, and the opening paragraph to a WitchVox article, I started looking up information on the growing Pagan community, and found the date for the religion to be the "third largest" religion in the United States being projected around 2010 or 2012. Currently, it's tying with Islam to be the fasted growing religion in America.

Unless I'm much mistaken, it's Wicca specifically that's the fastest growing religion in North America right now, not just Paganism; most sects still aren't formally recognized as religions yet. Wicca is one of the few that is recognized, but they're having considerable problems coming up with concrete numbers of practitioners due to the number of closeted solitary pratitioners, and debates within the Wiccan community as to what exactly is and is not Wicca. In order for Wicca to become the third largest religion in North America requires that conversion rates stay as high as they have been, and that converts don't use Wicca as a revolving door to gain access to other spiritual paths. I had a religious studies professor discuss this one day as a part of a class on cults and new religious movements; your article writer's has bent and over looked some facts that they really shouldn't have.

However, it is interesting to note that the growth is coinciding with so much astrologically.  

[Jezehbelle]

The Bookwyrm

Jezehbelle

(I'm horrible at thread titles)

Where do you think these earth-based (and otherwise pagan) religions are going?

As a recent fancy, partly due to Starlock's thread on converting, and the opening paragraph to a WitchVox article, I started looking up information on the growing Pagan community, and found the date for the religion to be the "third largest" religion in the United States being projected around 2010 or 2012. Currently, it's tying with Islam to be the fasted growing religion in America.

Unless I'm much mistaken, it's Wicca specifically that's the fastest growing religion in North America right now, not just Paganism; most sects still aren't formally recognized as religions yet. Wicca is one of the few that is recognized, but they're having considerable problems coming up with concrete numbers of practitioners due to the number of closeted solitary pratitioners, and debates within the Wiccan community as to what exactly is and is not Wicca. In order for Wicca to become the third largest religion in North America requires that conversion rates stay as high as they have been, and that converts don't use Wicca as a revolving door to gain access to other spiritual paths. I had a religious studies professor discuss this one day as a part of a class on cults and new religious movements; your article writer's has bent and over looked some facts that they really shouldn't have.

However, it is interesting to note that the growth is coinciding with so much astrologically.

That article wasn't the only source where I've seen that statistic as them being the two fastest growing. Actually, the article doesn't say anything about Islam even being in the running. o_O

I always think of Wicca as under the umbrella, so if Wicca is growing, the pagan population would be growing. Sortof like the number of Catholics growing would still mean that Christianity would be getting bigger. sweatdrop  

[MaleficentSnape]

Interesting thoughts, And I hope you are right that by 2012 paganism will be a majority instead of a minority. smile  

[Jezehbelle]

MaleficentSnape

Interesting thoughts, And I hope you are right that by 2012 paganism will be a majority instead of a minority. smile

To "beat" Judaism or Islam, using the numbers from the last CoG poll, there they would both need to gain no more members, and the Neo-Pagan faiths would need 143,167 converts a year or around 390 converts a day. o_O

That's a little mind boggly.  

[Starlock]

Currently, [Paganism is] tying with Islam to be the fasted growing religion in America.

I'm weary of any statistics of growth for Neopagan religions. There are many problems when surveying groups that are not highly organized. I really feel like some of the inflation is because surveying has been taken more seriously and been a bit more thorough than efforts in the past. Until "Neopaganism" lands on the religious affiliations on a nationwide census, it's going to be very hard to peg growth trends. We can sort of extrapolate based on the booming sales of Neopagan books and merchandise, but these aren't surefire measures either. I wouldn't be surprised if we were among the fastest growing (possibly THE fastest) but I'm skeptical of the figures themselves.

For your links to the Age of Aquarius... that's heralded more by the New Age community and I haven't done much digging into it. I can't seem to remember well the bits and pieces I've heard/read around here and there. Periods do tend to be cyclical in a sense, or at least pendulimic (yes, probably a made up word to describe a pattern which swings like a pendulum between two poles... but I'm allowed to make up words, damnit!).

It might be misleading to say that Paganism has dissapeared to begin with, though. Even using some narrower definitions, Hinduism, Shinto, indigenous Chinese folk practicies... all of these can be classified as Pagan. If you're speaking just of the West, though... yeah, that has largely dissapeared. I'm not so sure we'll see a "death" of Christianity. I think that the time has come instead for it to transform.

I was listening to a Podcast recently (Deos Shadow... an episode with an interview of the author of "Accidental Christ") which suggested that Christianity needs to shift away from literalism and dogmatism and allow its practitioners to interpret their religious text for themselves. Don't let anybody interpret scripture for you. The problem with much of the Christian movement is that they're taking their mythology (the Bible) far too literally and miss the underlying truths. And in a culture that is becoming increasingly "show it to me or it's bullshit" due to the rise of scientific paradigms... moving away from that literality will be required, probably, for the religion to survive. I thought it was a very intriguing idea... makes me want to go back and read that Bible even more than before.

So in some ways, if Christianity transforms in this way it will become more similar to what the Neopagan movement in many respects represents. We don't let people interpret our scriptures for us... we're very hands-on and do our own thinking. That could lead to a more free-form style of Christianity that could even incorporate aspects of polytheism more freely. That's a scary idea for both Christians and Neopagans alike who like to think of the two as irreconcilable.

But dang you for getting me thinking... sheesh! wink  

[Redwing~Shadow]

I can see how that would make sence, since it is told that history is bound to repeat itself, which i see a little scary, but we must face facts and take life as it is coming. But i somewhat see a conection to how Christianity relates to wicca, since parts of wicca was tooken off christianity. But there still isnt much fact of how much the religion has grown, other than the fact that it has been becoming popular in the US.  

[Jezehbelle]

Starlock

But dang you for getting me thinking... sheesh! wink

But that's the best part! surprised !

I don't think things really "die" though. So long as there's a record, so long as there's evidence that a thing existed, it lives.

ninja

Christianity changing as a whole would be an amazing thing.
People have been basing their faith on literal translations of the bible for the last 2000(ish) years or so. There are some that don't believe it to be exactilly literal, that evolution doesn't discredit the creation story, for example. That god created all of these things in order, but over a much longer period of time, not in a week.

But things like heaven and hell might be a little harder to not take literally. Sins too. sweatdrop  

[Starlock]

Jezehbelle

Starlock

But dang you for getting me thinking... sheesh! wink

But that's the best part! surprised !

I don't think things really "die" though. So long as there's a record, so long as there's evidence that a thing existed, it lives.

ninja

Christianity changing as a whole would be an amazing thing.
People have been basing their faith on literal translations of the bible for the last 2000(ish) years or so. There are some that don't believe it to be exactilly literal, that evolution doesn't discredit the creation story, for example. That god created all of these things in order, but over a much longer period of time, not in a week.

But things like heaven and hell might be a little harder to not take literally. Sins too. sweatdrop

Not really. Another podcast I listen to gave heaven as a specific example of how mythology and deities appear to a culture in a way that makes sense to them. Think about what it was like to live, say, two-thousand years ago. Now think about the kinds of places you can travel to. Then think... what's the one place you really can't travel to? Up. Of course there's no big fluffy cloud with heaven's gates literally in the sky. The heavens, to our ancestors, simply represented something unattainable in life and that could only be attainable in death. It's the metaphor that counts, not the literality. Likewise if you were doomed to hell, in the center of the earth, you'd never get to reach that unattainable thing... the skies.

Problem is that nowadays the skies aren't some unattainable thing. In modern times we should perhaps compare the Christian heaven to the stars and galaxies and the far flung reaches of the universe. It brings about the same metaphor for us thinking about it that way. In death we can reach things we cannot attain in life; to Christians you can either doom yourself and never reach that or you can pray for your salvation and attain it upon death.

EDIT: oh, credits go to "The Secrets Hidden in Plain Sight" podcast, which I highly recommend for anyone here who is more serious about asking theological questions. He can sometimes drag on a bit with his topics, but he has very insightful things to say.  

[Caerwiden]

I think that Pagan faiths could quite easily replace christianity as the dominant faith in western culture eventually, although I think that Atheism and Agnosticism are probably more likely to become a majority rather than Paganism (unless we can buy the atheists over with some fun holidays involving a big fat man who brings presents or something. We could call him Father Solstice)

I think that christianity is likely to lose its influence as it becomes less easy to adapt to changes in modern society, due the very nature of christianity which revolves around a book written two thousand years ago (which is the word of the god Yahweh so can't be altered, which is a tad inconvenient). I think that Pagan faiths will become popular due to their flexibility, sheer variety (worship anything from Amataratsu to Zoroasta), and the fact that nothing is set in stone (unlike Abrahamic religions).

However both Islam and christianity are likely to continue to grow rapidly in developing world where indigenous Pagan faiths aren't as well organised as they are in Europe, Asia and North America (and they probably both appear attractive to people, just like they did in the Old World during the first millenium CE, although there was much more persecution back then)  

[Jezehbelle]

Starlock

Not really. Another podcast I listen to gave heaven as a specific example of how mythology and deities appear to a culture in a way that makes sense to them. Think about what it was like to live, say, two-thousand years ago. Now think about the kinds of places you can travel to. Then think... what's the one place you really can't travel to? Up. Of course there's no big fluffy cloud with heaven's gates literally in the sky. The heavens, to our ancestors, simply represented something unattainable in life and that could only be attainable in death. It's the metaphor that counts, not the literality. Likewise if you were doomed to hell, in the center of the earth, you'd never get to reach that unattainable thing... the skies.

Problem is that nowadays the skies aren't some unattainable thing. In modern times we should perhaps compare the Christian heaven to the stars and galaxies and the far flung reaches of the universe. It brings about the same metaphor for us thinking about it that way. In death we can reach things we cannot attain in life; to Christians you can either doom yourself and never reach that or you can pray for your salvation and attain it upon death.

EDIT: oh, credits go to "The Secrets Hidden in Plain Sight" podcast, which I highly recommend for anyone here who is more serious about asking theological questions. He can sometimes drag on a bit with his topics, but he has very insightful things to say.

I never thought about it like that, but it's still pretty literal to most (if not all) of the Christians I know. The pearly gates and Saint Pete giving you a nod or pulling a lever and sending you to some layer of hell.

Still, sins are hard to take as metaphors. Some of them can be good guidelines and such, for them, back in the day, like not eating shellfish, or not lying with a woman for however many days it is after her period, because I doubt feminine hygeine was all that great in that area of time and space. sweatdrop

Sins haven't changed in the last 2000 years to most of them. The only ones some are getting lax about are the ones having to do with sex. rolleyes But I see people who get these huge complexes about sex being good but horrible because they're not married or whathaveyou, and they're sins otherwise. I know a lot of 19 and 20 year olds that go to my sister's church that are married already so they don't sin by having sex, and want to get a divorce not much later. My exboyfriends brother (whose recently turned 20) got married in October and him and his new wife (fresh 19) have already been talking about divorce for the last month or so, and they're just one of a handful. sweatdrop I know more sex addicts that are Christian than any other faith too. gonk

Caerwiden -- We could go with "Holly King".
Or Count Evergreen. XD

Its not a very flexible book. And if something can't change, it's dead. Of all the mainstream religions, Hinduism is my favorite, and I think it's because the canon isn't dead. Things can still be added to it, because the Vedas are eternal, and can still be expressed.
There are no more Christian prophets coming, and if there are anymore coming, they're probably the homeless ones that scream things at busy intersections in cities. D:  

[Starlock]

Caerwiden

I think that Pagan faiths could quite easily replace christianity as the dominant faith in western culture eventually, although I think that Atheism and Agnosticism are probably more likely to become a majority rather than Paganism

Keep in mind that Agnosticism is a term that can be used in conjunction with ANY other religious system; it's a statement about the nature of knowledge, not if the person chooses or chooses not to believe in a deity. I'm fundamentally Agnostic; I don't believe it's possible for me to truly know the nature of anything divine or otherwise. But I still believe in things out of both desire, rationality and practicality.

Atheism is a tougher bit. I get the sense that many drift in this direction because they're literalists to a fault. They'll see mythological stories, be they Biblical or otherwise, and having a knowledge of 'science' will dismiss them as stupid, foolish, etc. without really understanding the real point behind these things on a metaphorical level. I think that it's human nature though to be 'religious' in that there's always something that lies unexplained or awes us. That element usually manifests in some religious context and even the Atheists are hard pressed to escape that urge. Hence we've got Atheists who believe in superstitions or the occult or psuedoscience even though technically they shouldn't.

Caerwiden

I think that christianity is likely to lose its influence as it becomes less easy to adapt to changes in modern society, due the very nature of christianity which revolves around a book written two thousand years ago (which is the word of the god Yahweh so can't be altered, which is a tad inconvenient). I think that Pagan faiths will become popular due to their flexibility, sheer variety (worship anything from Amataratsu to Zoroasta), and the fact that nothing is set in stone (unlike Abrahamic religions).

Yeah, this has been mentioned a bit earlier in the thread too. While the base text probably won't change, interpretation of it can. What might happen is that people begin to interpret the Bible for themselves instead of designating that to the clergy. That would in effect make Christianity as flexible and variable as Neopaganism. It would mean a massive decentralization of the Church though. And let's face it... not everyone is really cut out for independently persued spirituality. They don't want to do all that work. So there will always be some sort of organized religion that's relatively simple to follow for those who don't make religion a big part of their lives. One thing a Neopagan path is NOT for is someone who is spiritually or intellectually lazy. whee  

[Starlock]

Jezehbelle

Still, sins are hard to take as metaphors. Some of them can be good guidelines and such, for them, back in the day, like not eating shellfish, or not lying with a woman for however many days it is after her period, because I doubt feminine hygeine was all that great in that area of time and space. sweatdrop

Yeah, I didn't address that element because at the time I didn't have a good cover for that. Not sure I do now either. It isn't uncommon however for the world's religions to view something of humanity or the world as fundamentally 'flawed.' Even the Eastern religions tend to do that... Neopaganism is rather unique in that it doens't tend to embrace that viewpoint of "there's something fundamentally wrong with us/the world."

There are different ways to interpret how sinning influences your chances at a good afterlife though. I know there are some "Christians" (in quotes because I think that in many respects these people don't deserve the title) who go out, get wasted and do all these sinful things and later go confess... and the very next day go sin again. Now *that* right there is what they mean by taking the Lord's name in vein. xd In the end it's somewhat true that any sort of ethical code is in particality taken as a 'guideline' unless it is enforced by law. Even the Rede is more of a guideline than a rule or law. But I have no idea where I'm going with this now...  

[Jezehbelle]

Starlock

Yeah, I didn't address that element because at the time I didn't have a good cover for that. Not sure I do now either. It isn't uncommon however for the world's religions to view something of humanity or the world as fundamentally 'flawed.' Even the Eastern religions tend to do that... Neopaganism is rather unique in that it doens't tend to embrace that viewpoint of "there's something fundamentally wrong with us/the world."

There are different ways to interpret how sinning influences your chances at a good afterlife though. I know there are some "Christians" (in quotes because I think that in many respects these people don't deserve the title) who go out, get wasted and do all these sinful things and later go confess... and the very next day go sin again. Now *that* right there is what they mean by taking the Lord's name in vein. xd In the end it's somewhat true that any sort of ethical code is in particality taken as a 'guideline' unless it is enforced by law. Even the Rede is more of a guideline than a rule or law. But I have no idea where I'm going with this now...

Doesn't "rede" just mean "advice"? It's kindof interesting how few people don't know the rest of the poem past "An it harm none, do what thou will" But I guess that's mostly the part that matters.  

[Starlock]

Jezehbelle

Starlock

Yeah, I didn't address that element because at the time I didn't have a good cover for that. Not sure I do now either. It isn't uncommon however for the world's religions to view something of humanity or the world as fundamentally 'flawed.' Even the Eastern religions tend to do that... Neopaganism is rather unique in that it doens't tend to embrace that viewpoint of "there's something fundamentally wrong with us/the world."

There are different ways to interpret how sinning influences your chances at a good afterlife though. I know there are some "Christians" (in quotes because I think that in many respects these people don't deserve the title) who go out, get wasted and do all these sinful things and later go confess... and the very next day go sin again. Now *that* right there is what they mean by taking the Lord's name in vein. xd In the end it's somewhat true that any sort of ethical code is in particality taken as a 'guideline' unless it is enforced by law. Even the Rede is more of a guideline than a rule or law. But I have no idea where I'm going with this now...

Doesn't "rede" just mean "advice"? It's kindof interesting how few people don't know the rest of the poem past "An it harm none, do what thou will" But I guess that's mostly the part that matters.

Yes, it does mean advice but not everbody knows that so it is taken as some sort of Wiccan law. At worst I've seen the Rede applied universally to Neopagan paths. Granted there are Neopagans aside from Wiccans who hold to the Rede as a guideline... but still. sweatdrop