ESP

[The Halloween Man]

Extra Sensory Perception(ESP) is on my research list so can anyone tell me something about it ?  

[bluecherry]

Not something I'm very familiar with. Try a Google search maybe? If anybody else does know more details on the subject and can post them here, then great.

 

[Baulder]

Meh, I'm not much of one for the supernatural stuff. Sorry, can't help you.  

[Iron_Felix]

from what Ive heard, ESP is classified as many things. There are many definitions, Ive heard it spoken of as if it were thought control, others, the ability to see spirits, (such is my ability) It can be classified as many things, try a search, and get as many research papers as you can.  

[Impenetrable Ice]

We studied it in my Psychology class. It's one of four types of high brain functions, or to some it is known as supernatural. (by the way I think the other three types are telekinesis, telepathy, and clairvoyance)

It may seem like someone who has very good luck or instincts may have it, but truthfully it just means that a person with it can pick up things that others can't without knowing it.

Some people even believe that you can train your mind to have more ESP  

[Eros Conoirus]

Impenetrable Ice

We studied it in my Psychology class. It's one of four types of high brain functions, or to some it is known as supernatural. (by the way I think the other three types are telekinesis, telepathy, and clairvoyance)

It may seem like someone who has very good luck or instincts may have it, but truthfully it just means that a person with it can pick up things that others can't without knowing it.

Some people even believe that you can train your mind to have more ESP

Hehe. Luck has nothing to do with it. ESP can in fact be developed, but as to how, is a mystery to me as well.

Blessed Be! )O(  

[bluecherry]

I think what he means by luck is either people with really good "luck" are often mistaken for having ESP (Or that's something I sure think happens at least) or he may also be saying the same thing the other way around, people with ESP may be mistaken for having really good "luck" (I'm not sure about this option though myself, I haven't heard on read much on the subject to see if any of these "higher brain functioning" things like ESP really have any credibility to them or not. I'm leaning toward "no" from what bit I have heard and from what I've seen so far from people claiming to have these abilities, but, until I've bothered to go do some more thorough digging on the subject to make a more informed opinion I'm going to sort of mostly refrain from getting a really solidified opinion of it.)

 

[Eros Conoirus]

bluecherry

I think what he means by luck is either people with really good "luck" are often mistaken for having ESP (Or that's something I sure think happens at least) or he may also be saying the same thing the other way around, people with ESP may be mistaken for having really good "luck" (I'm not sure about this option though myself, I haven't heard on read much on the subject to see if any of these "higher brain functioning" things like ESP really have any credibility to them or not. I'm leaning toward "no" from what bit I have heard and from what I've seen so far from people claiming to have these abilities, but, until I've bothered to go do some more thorough digging on the subject to make a more informed opinion I'm going to sort of mostly refrain from getting a really solidified opinion of it.)

Well then, I guess you ARE entitled to your own OPINION.  

[bluecherry]

As are you and everybody else (though not having enough good reasons to support them is bad and I also don't encourage just posting opinions without explaining them and supporting them), but you don't need the giant font to say so. neutral I already said I don't know enough on the subject at this time to really say I "know" stuff about this with absolute certainty.

Come to think of it, you know, I'm not sure the subject of ESP really even belongs in this subforum. This is a scientific question - does it or does it not exist? - and this is a subforum about philosophy. There is part of the problem of why I am not so able to speak on this subject as I am in most other threads in this subforum.

 

[Eros Conoirus]

bluecherry

As are you and everybody else (though not having enough good reasons to support them is bad and I also don't encourage just posting opinions without explaining them and supporting them), but you don't need the giant font to say so. neutral I already said I don't know enough on the subject at this time to really say I "know" stuff about this with absolute certainty.

Come to think of it, you know, I'm not sure the subject of ESP really even belongs in this subforum. This is a scientific question - does it or does it not exist? - and this is a subforum about philosophy. There is part of the problem of why I am not so able to speak on this subject as I am in most other threads in this subforum.

Haha. And you're forgetting that science can not explain the paranormal.  

[bluecherry]

That's kind of a silly statement to make, circular reasoning really since the very definition of the word "paranormal" means it has to be something science "can't explain."

par·a·nor·mal

par·a·nor·mal [pàrrə náwrm'l]
adj
impossible to explain scientifically: unable to be explained or understood in terms of scientific knowledge

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

There have been plenty of things I'm sure through time people insisted science "couldn't" explain -- and then it did. Something is only thought to be unexplainable until it is explained, only impossible until it is proven possible. Don't confuse the "unexplained" with "unexplainable." I say there is no such thing as anything at all that can not be explained by science, "paranormal", just things we can not (or just have not) explain with science YET. wink

 

[Eros Conoirus]

Ugh..it doesn't matter, science is the study of theories and they are generally inaccurate or opinionated ideas that are highly debated even between scientists. I will level with you that one day, science will maybe one day explain that in order to develop ESP you are going to need a hell of a lot of meditation time and understanding of what the human mind can actually accomplish. One which you seem to lack understanding of as well.

Remember, reality is only an opinionated form of expression and is therefore unique to the thinker, thus ESP can only exist to those who understand that everyone has the ability to unlock their "third-eye" chakra and see this world in a much more different light; that humanity is doomed to repeat history regardless of what they may think.  

[bluecherry]

You distrust science that much? Tell you what, I believe even gravity is still technically called a "theory" (which by the way, does not mean it is just some unsupported guess like so many people seem to like to believe), but if you can find a way while in what should be a gravitational field to simply just by sheer will alone make it cease I will concede defeat and give you all of my Gaian items and gold. BUT you must be able to pull off this task of canceling gravity by will alone multiple times, anytime (though if it takes some time to do, that is fine), and under laboratory test conditions with multiple credible witnesses (scientists in the appropriate field and maybe some top quality magicians too to be on the safe side) present, and yes, in the presence of "skeptics." If you can do this and no decent scientist or magician can figure out any reason why you may be proving to cause a gravitational anomaly other then your simple wanting it to be that way, because either you have some special "mental abilities" or because gravity is simply just another theory and therefore an "inaccurate or opinionated idea" and nothing more -- or heck, if you can get ANYBODY to do that -- then as I said I will gladly give you all my Gaia stuff and tell you you are right. In fact, I'll grovel if that's what you want. But make no mistake, disagreement and being seen to be proven wrong is not a weakness of science -- that's a STRENGTH of it. To go out not knowing things and be so concerned with really getting it right that you aren't just willing to take whatever is the first answer or the easiest answer as the right answer, doing all kinds of testing, TRYING to see if you can prove yourselves wrong, admitting you are wrong if proven so and going back and trying again -- it is a self correcting system that is not so pigheaded as to refuse to ever admit it was wrong. It's a grand thing it recognizes it's job is to try to find out what is right and true, and not to get too caught up in their own pride to actually do it. You see, it's learning and the fact that reality is indeed a separate entity from our thoughts and desires (our thoughts and desires and such are formed off what we perceive from that separate world, and by using physical actions based off out thoughts and such we can then in turn influence reality to an extent, but never directly from thoughts/will alone without going through the physical as an intermediate first. And speaking does still count as physical too) that is exactly what will keep people from being "doomed to repeat themselves." Those who learn from the past do not repeat it. In fact, it is those who do NOT learn from the past who will be repeating it, such as, say those who still think science doesn't ever count for anything and that wishing read other people's minds and concentrating alone will allow you to do so. surprised Notice people have been trying to do these kinds of things, such as mind reading, for SO long and nobody has yet been able to properly demonstrate it under conditions where there would actually be no real question of it's truth if it really did happen, and yet, there are still people insisting they can and that years of reason to believe the contrary is all unreliable and that even with that said they themselves are not willing to go actually try to go through credible testing?

By the way, I have yet to hear from any real scientist who is still denying the validity of "cell theory" or "the germ theory of disease" for example.

 

[Eros Conoirus]

bluecherry

You distrust science that much? Tell you what, I believe even gravity is still technically called a "theory" (which by the way, does not mean it is just some unsupported guess like so many people seem to like to believe), but if you can find a way while in what should be a gravitational field to simply just by sheer will alone make it cease I will concede defeat and give you all of my Gaian items and gold. BUT you must be able to pull off this task of canceling gravity by will alone multiple times, anytime (though if it takes some time to do, that is fine), and under laboratory test conditions with multiple credible witnesses (scientists in the appropriate field and maybe some top quality magicians too to be on the safe side) present, and yes, in the presence of "skeptics." If you can do this and no decent scientist or magician can figure out any reason why you may be proving to cause a gravitational anomaly other then your simple wanting it to be that way, because either you have some special "mental abilities" or because gravity is simply just another theory and therefore an "inaccurate or opinionated idea" and nothing more -- or heck, if you can get ANYBODY to do that -- then as I said I will gladly give you all my Gaia stuff and tell you you are right. In fact, I'll grovel if that's what you want. But make no mistake, disagreement and being seen to be proven wrong is not a weakness of science -- that's a STRENGTH of it. To go out not knowing things and be so concerned with really getting it right that you aren't just willing to take whatever is the first answer or the easiest answer as the right answer, doing all kinds of testing, TRYING to see if you can prove yourselves wrong, admitting you are wrong if proven so and going back and trying again -- it is a self correcting system that is not so pigheaded as to refuse to ever admit it was wrong. It's a grand thing it recognizes it's job is to try to find out what is right and true, and not to get too caught up in their own pride to actually do it. You see, it's learning and the fact that reality is indeed a separate entity from our thoughts and desires (our thoughts and desires and such are formed off what we perceive from that separate world, and by using physical actions based off out thoughts and such we can then in turn influence reality to an extent, but never directly from thoughts/will alone without going through the physical as an intermediate first. And speaking does still count as physical too) that is exactly what will keep people from being "doomed to repeat themselves." Those who learn from the past do not repeat it. In fact, it is those who do NOT learn from the past who will be repeating it, such as, say those who still think science doesn't ever count for anything and that wishing read other people's minds and concentrating alone will allow you to do so. surprised Notice people have been trying to do these kinds of things, such as mind reading, for SO long and nobody has yet been able to properly demonstrate it under conditions where there would actually be no real question of it's truth if it really did happen, and yet, there are still people insisting they can and that years of reason to believe the contrary is all unreliable and that even with that said they themselves are not willing to go actually try to go through credible testing?

By the way, I have yet to hear from any real scientist who is still denying the validity of "cell theory" or "the germ theory of disease" for example.

Hm, ok but first I must correct you in a few places, you see I view myself as a witch, not a magician; in fact many who may agree with me would also tell you that wizards and magicians are practitioner's in ritualistic magick. Magick(the K is to distinguish between the craft and the act of illusions on stage) is real and it exists in life itself, I never said in any instance on this topic that I thought science was invalid. In fact, I view all ideas on creation and the world around us to be valid ideas that deserve consideration and thought. I merely stated that science could not explain the idea of ESP thorougly. And for your info, mind-reading is only one example of "higher-brain activity" which scientists have labeled and called it higher left-brain activity in those who have claimed to have "psychic" or "freaky" powers such as telepathy and telekinesis. I agree with the "cell theory" actually, and the "germ theory of disease" mostly because they make sense. But that wasn't the answer you are looking for is it? No? Didn't think so. To further explain, as per your request, I must also ask you if you're "grand omnipotent science" can actually completely explain this "higher left-brain activity" which has been stated in several Discovery Channel specials on supposed psychic claims, and the paranormal. And you can keep your possessions, I wouldn't deprive you of those. I'm sorry if this debate caused you any unnecessary stress, as this was merely a debate and nothing else. I was not trying to turn you to my views, but to debate my opinions and to make my mark on this board; that I am a(n) intelligent Gaian and I will let my opinions be heard, at the least. May fortune smile upon you.

Blessed Be!
)O(

 

[bluecherry]

Oh no, I used the word "magician" correctly and purposefully in my above post. I would want really good magicians, illusionists, there to try to make sure you are not simply pulling a fast one on the scientists and merely tricking them with illusions. For just one example, as this was a test of gravity I was mentioning, the illusionist magician Chris Angel has done tricks where he appears to defy gravity, but they are still just tricks.

And by the way, I agree all ideas should be given consideration, and science DOES indeed give them consideration. Don't confuse things getting quickly eliminated (such as things that are logically impossible and absurd to the extreme, such as the FSM example of "the decline in the number of pirates causing global warming") with never being considered at all. And I'm glad you do agree with cell theory and germ theory of disease at least. xd I'd think your life might be in great danger if you didn't. I could imagine if you decided to go run around people with the Ebola virus because you didn't think there were germs you could catch. Really, they make sense is exactly the point. That's how science works over all, by trying to use what we do know, logic, and tests and exploration to find out more evidence all working together to see what makes sense. Science is entirely about finding the sense in the workings of the world to find truth. Sometimes that leads us to obvious conclusions, sometimes we find by following the facts that truth really is stranger than fiction. Some things may be harder for the average person to understand, but they do ultimately come down to what really does make sense. If something eventually comes up to show an old answer no longer makes sense, then you go back and work on the problem again factoring in this new evidence until you get what does make sense again. Science makes no claims of omnipotence. Nor omniscience. You can only work with what is possible (this includes the laws of physics and the things that cause apparent exceptions to them to come into play, you can't do this impossible, only find out new ways to do things in what is possible so that they may look like the impossible) and you can only work with what you know or try out what you suspect. Which is why expanding scientific knowledge is always good to do. It helps with accuracy.
And I've already stated that I personally do not know enough about "higher brain functioning" claims to be 100% positive about them, only that at this time I find them suspicious for their failures to be sufficiently demonstrable thus far under decent testing conditions as far as I myself have heard of. In fact, there's a million dollars up for grabs even to anybody who can do something similar to the challenge I gave you earlier, so in fact you don't have to take my Gaia stuff which is mere virtual value alone (though I was being entirely serious. As a question of reality I take it quite seriously. I'm not freaking out or anything, in fact I'm trying to keep this to a very civil and rational exchange. I just wanted to have some kind of possible reward up for grabs and to show my sincerity and commitment to the truth and to make it a little more interesting and desirable to actually try to prove your claims instead of just making them. Please do not mistake my zeal for stress), but a million dollars if you or anybody you know can demonstrate something of a "paranormal" nature sufficiently. See the challenge here. So far, many have tried, none have succeeded to live up to their claims in the test here. As for the Discovery channel thing, haven't seen it, maybe if it's on some time I'll watch it, but being on TV alone, even the Discovery channel, doesn't guarantee it is 100% reliable truth. Remember, the Discovery channel may be generally accurate and scientific, or at least try to be, but they are in the entertainment business in the end, so they may do things some times that are more for fun and to get viewers and not draw definitive conclusions because it may put off viewers. wink