Satan and Paganism

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Something that I've found a little contradictory recently. I'm sure we've all run accross the line of "I'm Pagan/Wiccan/a witch, I don't believe in Satan." It's a common enough sentiment and makes sense on the surface - why believe in an entity that belongs to a belief structure that you don't follow?

However, aren't most pagans accepting of other pantheons as well? If you can believe in both Isis, the Morrigan, Amaraterasu, Hera and Raven, why not Satan? As a figure, he is quite an important part of the Christian mythos, and if we can accept Jesus, why not Satan?

Personally, I think it's a defense mechanism that's come up in response to claims of devil worship.

Christian - You worship the devil!
Pagan - No I don't, I don't even believe in the devil! Nuuuuuuuu~~~~~!

I'll finish this off with a little anecdote. A couple yers ago, I was having a conversation about religion with a Christian friend (well, more aquintance) of mine. I mentioned that I didn't believe in Satan, and she responded with "Well, he believes in you." I laughed at the witty comeback, and the conversation went on.

So, do you believe in Satan? Will you accept the idea of an enemy figure as readily as a benevolent god figure?  

[The Bookwyrm]

Alright, first things first... *FLYING TACKLE_GLOMP!*

Ahem... And now to business.

It's definately an interesting concept to ponder; I grew up Catholic, so it's a little bit hard for me to completely throw off an entity that I grew up with, so to speak. Do I believe in Satan? In a sense... Mayhaps more the Lucifer side of things; I believe that an angel was cast out of Heaven and is the antithesis of the Christian concept of God. It's a matter of balance: good and evil, light and dark. A better question would be do I recognize that entity?

It's taken a long time, but I think I've left behind me the notion of a being of pure evil who's mission in existance is to first lead me into sin and who will then spend enternity tormenting me. Truth be told, I give the idea of the devil little to no thought. So I suppose I vaguely reognize this entity's existance, but ont he same side of the coin, I'm more inclined to say that Christ was simply a man, a prohpet, and not the son of God.

But I agree that it's a defence mechanism to immediately spout out "I don't believe in Satan!" It's honestly the easiest thing to say when confronted by it. It's not one that I've ever used; I've always simply said I don't recognize any such entity in my practice, but that's just me. I think, for the most part, people who do the confronting would not be the sort willing to listen to rational arguments that begin with "I don't worship Satan." But it depends on how they've asked the question. In some cases, sometimes a little white lie makes everyone's life just a little bit easier.

But to further Nihil's anecdote, I'll paraphrase a quote that's always stuck with me from Bless the Child: The cleverest thing the devil ever did was convince mankind he doesn't exist.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

xd I take it that's a "welcome back" sort of thing?

The thing about the devil figure, is that he's not solely Christian. A dualistic system like that pops up in Zoroastrian belief. We also recognize other deities are can be downright nasty, like Ereshkigal. I'm a little rusty on various mythologies, but I'm sure you get my point. We accept other deities as negative, why not Satan?  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

xd I take it that's a "welcome back" sort of thing?

The thing about the devil figure, is that he's not solely Christian. A dualistic system like that pops up in Zoroastrian belief. We also recognize other deities are can be downright nasty, like Ereshkigal. I'm a little rusty on various mythologies, but I'm sure you get my point. We accept other deities as negative, why not Satan?

Oh, I definately get it! But I think it's more avoiding stigma that makes so many of us deny Satan's very existance. Or, perhaps because he's been constructed from so many other deities, we don't feel the need to recognize a conglomeration if we recognize the originals. confused  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

The Bookwyrm

Nihilistic Seraph

xd I take it that's a "welcome back" sort of thing?

The thing about the devil figure, is that he's not solely Christian. A dualistic system like that pops up in Zoroastrian belief. We also recognize other deities are can be downright nasty, like Ereshkigal. I'm a little rusty on various mythologies, but I'm sure you get my point. We accept other deities as negative, why not Satan?

Oh, I definately get it! But I think it's more avoiding stigma that makes so many of us deny Satan's very existance. Or, perhaps because he's been constructed from so many other deities, we don't feel the need to recognize a conglomeration if we recognize the originals. confused

That's really open for debate. The "goat Satan" figure is completely ripped off, but what about the Satan in the Book of Job? Or Shaitan/Iblis in Muslim mythology?  

[Jezehbelle]

When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O;

The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc
ninja

I don't believe in the Devil -- I think he's Abrahamic God's scapegoat, if you'll excuse the pun...  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

That's really open for debate. The "goat Satan" figure is completely ripped off, but what about the Satan in the Book of Job? Or Shaitan/Iblis in Muslim mythology?

Satan's a complicated figure; he started out in the Judeo-Christian belief system as Lucifer; after the fall, for a reason Ive never understood but for the merging with an entity like Shaitan, he becomes Satan through a corruption of the name. The longer the myth has run, the more has been added; he seems to pick up characteristics every time Christianity spread into a new region and there were gods to discourage. And he's picked up such a variety of names; I just can't bring myself to see him as just being one entity any more.

The church stared giving him horns and cloven hooves when they encountered cultures with horned gods; after the fall of the Templar, we have the Baphomet and the list goes on and on.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Jezehbelle

When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O;

The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil.

Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it.

As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him.

Quote:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc
ninja

I'm looking at that now. I'm a little sceptical seeing as they posit that not only are Satan and Lucifer the same person, but that Lucifer fell before Jesus even arrived on the scene.

Quote:

I don't believe in the Devil -- I think he's Abrahamic God's scapegoat, if you'll excuse the pun...

Augh, puns. xp

Care to elaborate on that?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

The Bookwyrm

Nihilistic Seraph

That's really open for debate. The "goat Satan" figure is completely ripped off, but what about the Satan in the Book of Job? Or Shaitan/Iblis in Muslim mythology?

Satan's a complicated figure; he started out in the Judeo-Christian belief system as Lucifer; after the fall, for a reason Ive never understood but for the merging with an entity like Shaitan, he becomes Satan through a corruption of the name. The longer the myth has run, the more has been added; he seems to pick up characteristics every time Christianity spread into a new region and there were gods to discourage. And he's picked up such a variety of names; I just can't bring myself to see him as just being one entity any more.

The church stared giving him horns and cloven hooves when they encountered cultures with horned gods; after the fall of the Templar, we have the Baphomet and the list goes on and on.

Care to cite me scripture on that? wink  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

Jezehbelle

When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O;

The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil.

Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it.

As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the serpant is Satan, or Lucifer, or whatever you'd like to call him. It's what I was always told in church, and authors like Milton have certainly played it up. It just wasn't a real serpant, it was the devil in disguise.

And Adam and Eve were indeed told that they would die when they ate of the fruit; however, he took pitty on them for being duped, and instead cast them out of the garden as punishment.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

The Bookwyrm

Nihilistic Seraph

Jezehbelle

When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O;

The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil.

Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it.

As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the serpant is Satan, or Lucifer, or whatever you'd like to call him. It's what I was always told in church, and authors like Milton have certainly played it up. It just wasn't a real serpant, it was the devil in disguise.

And Adam and Eve were indeed told that they would die when they ate of the fruit; however, he took pitty on them for being duped, and instead cast them out of the garden as punishment.

Well, if the serpent is really Satan in disguise, I'd ask why God then condemns the serpent to

Yahweh

Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

As well, the bit about them dying goes like this.

Genesis 3:3

But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

I checked with blueletterbible for the Hebrew in this, and it says that "die" in the text is used in the imperfect tense, which in Hebrew (according to Wiki) denotes ""uncompleted" action and therefore denotes present or future time."

I'd then draw the link that God knew they were going to eat it, get banished and eventually die. 3nodding  

[Jezehbelle]

And on Satan the Scapegoat -- if god is all good, all knowing (of things past, present and future), all powerful, in all places, how and why would he create a being whose sole purpose was to be the opposite of himself, when he does a good job of being horrible all by his lonesome? gonk

He gives Job boils and kills his family, but does he wipe everyone off the face of the earth? Or command that Moses command his men to kill and keep some 5,000 virgin girls as slaves? Or that infants should be smashed to peices and pregnant women should be ripped apart?

x _x Whenever I read about the devil actually doing something, it's little potatoes...  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

You're bringing up the philsophical problem of having both an omnipotent benevolent god, and evil in the world. It's certainly a valid objection to the existence of that type of deity, but how does is rule out the existence of the devil? You might as well start going through Egyptian mythology and edit out the myth changed for political purposes, or to reflect the changing times.  

[Jezehbelle]

"Evil's a product of man" is one I've heard a lot before when explaining why there's evil in the world, if that God loves us.

Evil is a concept I can understand (as much as most people can), even from a "benevolent" god, but the Devil kindof eludes me. These other mischeivous entities, I can understand, to some extent.

It's when the God isn't truely all that great, and then there's this devil running around, whose supposedly much worse.  

[iolitefire]

This is quite an interesting topic.
I've heard me share of people playing double standards with Satan. But they also tend to be less likely to mention the less nice Pagan gods as well (Set, Yama, etc.). They just ignore the gods who aren't pleasant or good to humanity (even though some of those gods actually are).

This is how I view entities like Satan things like demons. Demons are beings that oppose either a god or a principle. Thus every religion has its own distinct demons.
Now, you have to keep in mind that in mythology, not everything is black and white. Some gods can do some screwed up things which means that their demonic counterparts may not be as evil as one might think.
I also believe that while I may support the existence of most gods, I don't not worship all of them and therefore they have no power over me.
In general, I think a better response for Pagans dealing with the Satanism argument is "Satan has no power over me." Cause, it is kind of true in one sense.