Kishimoto hates women (spoilers)

[Captain Verd]

With the recent development of Kurenai's baby, many fans of Independant Women were let down when Shikamaru vowed to assist in the care of the child. This development caused me to start thinking about other ways Kishimoto let Independant Women fans down throughout the story.

The female character have been divided into groups.

Healer Tsunade, Sakura, Ino, Shizune, Hana*
Heels/Chick Dress Tsunade, Shizune, Tenten, Hinata, Sakura, Temari**, Anko***
Womanly Weakness/Power Tsunade, Sakura, Ino, Hinata, Anko, Kurenai, Hana

*Hana is a vet, therefore a healer
**Temari wears miniskirts. Also, she has alot of leg shots and is GoInG oUt WiTh ShIkAmArU sort of.
***Anko wears miniskirts, and was pointless to the story without Orochimaru (for all those neat reasons)

The only women not mentioned are Kin, Tayuya, Tsume, Mikoto, Neji's Mom, and Yoshino.

Kin was disgusted that Ino and Sakura "shampooed"/took care of their hair, making her gross. By being gross, she's just another woman he doesn't like.

Tayuya talks like a man and has a very foul mouth. I thought she was a dude when she first showed up. Doesn't fit.

Mikoto, although a jounin, dropped her job to take care of her kids, as did Yoshino and Neji's mom.

The only woman who seems able to not only take care of herself, but remain womanly is Tsume. Hooray for Kiba's mom.  

[liz_bliz_inc]

Hey, Anko is still the s**t, and a tomboy if I ever saw one. And she makes up for he skirt with the tenchcoat.

Oh...did I mention she's the s**t?

Someone else is going to have to defend those other chumps

*romps around with Anko*  

[CrabappleRed]

I have to defend Tsunade. Yeah, she's a medic, but she's the medic: the original developper of medical techniques, a revolutionary, someone who had a major impact on the face of ninjitsu . . . and she's the fifth Hokage. That's pretty damned awsome for her.

I also don't find heels/skirts to be much of a problem. not all the female characters wear skirts, and not all of them wear heels. To me, it's not a big deal.

I think he did well with Tsunade (I'm hoping that she'll stay single for the rest of the series. That'd be a nice change), and he's starting to do well with Sakura. Temari's interesting as well: she has her own personality and goals, and she functions independantly of Shikamaru, but she still makes a nice foil for him. Anko was a great character, but she hasn't been used since the chunnin exam. Ino could have been (and could still be!) so much more. TenTen is a nice break from the general white mage formula, but she hasn't really been given anything other than a base personality. Hinata needs a chance to grow more - she had a nice start in the chunnin exam, but she needs to show that she's grown in strength and character independant of Naruto . . .

I am disapointed about Kurenai no longer getting to be a strong single mom. I'm also bitterly disapointed in what happened to Ino. Poor Ino. She's been relagated to being nothing more than Sakura's unsuccessful shadow. And she was so fun at first. She had real potential.

Actually, a lot of the female characetrs did. I think part of the problem, though, is that Kishimoto didn't plan on what to do with them, and so he's kinda at a loss. He's also go so many balls in the air that he's loosing track of his characters.

But I don't think Kishimoto really cares about developping his female characters that way. He's got two main plots: fighting Akatsuki and Naruto rescuing Sasuke. Anything else is side-quest material: not really important to the greater whole. Sakura's development is only now getting going, and she's one of the main three! I think that should tell us what important Kishi places female character development at. neutral  

[Ephesea]

I agree with you. Kishimoto seems to like undermining the whole independent women idea. I think Kurenai seemed kinda pathetic when Shikamaru said that..;o  

[attila the fun]

CrabappleRed

I have to defend Tsunade. Yeah, she's a medic, but she's the medic: the original developper of medical techniques, a revolutionary, someone who had a major impact on the face of ninjitsu . . . and she's the fifth Hokage. That's pretty damned awsome for her.

Yeah, but making her chief potentate of medics is kinda like making her chief potentate of housewives--impressive, but still clearly a woman's role.

Besides, she can't (or couldn't up until a little while ago) get over Dan's death, and that makes it seem like Dan made her stronger/she still relied on a man. She's also portrayed as unstable.  

[CrabappleRed]

attila the fun

Yeah, but making her chief potentate of medics is kinda like making her chief potentate of housewives--impressive, but still clearly a woman's role.

Eh, I'm willing to go with it. In my mind, it's not the traditional women's role that's demeaning, it's the forcing every female character into that role. To me, Tsunade is the original medic. When she's introduced, it's something new, important, and unique to her character. I have no problem with that. What I have issues with is making Ino a medic, or Hinata, or any of the other girls who could have had totaly different focuses, just because there has to be a medic on the team, and the boys can't be bothered to play nurse.

Quote:

Besides, she can't (or couldn't up until a little while ago) get over Dan's death, and that makes it seem like Dan made her stronger/she still relied on a man. She's also portrayed as unstable.

That I also don't have a problem with. Dan was just the final straw. Yes, he was important, but her little brother was equaly important as well. Moreso, even, since he's im more flashbacks (that I remember, anyways).

The impression I got wasn't that she couldn't deal with the lack of a man, but rather, that she was paranoid that her affection was tainted. Having two important people die on her messed her up big time. That, on top of the rather dramatic circumstances and the war going on, made sense to me. So it was less of a "my boyfriend is dead" thing than a "every one I love DIES!" thing, which is different. Tsunade's instability focuses on blood and on the position of Hokage. She's not obsessed with a boy, she's obsessed with the accessories of the deaths of those she loves. Nor is she fixated on getting her man back at any cost, or having a man support her or save her.

As for her being unstable - all the ninjas are unstable. Look at Kakashi. Look at GAI! Neji, Sasuke, Sai, Sasori, Zabuza, Haku . . . none of them are the picture of mental health. Tsunade's jaded instability makes sense, especialy considering her backstory.  

[liz_bliz_inc]

how come no one has brought up that even though medics, both Sakura and Tsunade are incredible fighters and assets on the field seperate of their medic abilities.

Sure their are skilled medics and spend a lot of their time healing others and studing the medical arts, but when they could just as easily turn around and decapitate some one or shatter a stone wall with a single punch, that's nothing to scoff at.  

[CrabappleRed]

liz_bliz

how come no one has brought up that even though medics, both Sakura and Tsunade are incredible fighters and assets on the field seperate of their medic abilities.

Sure their are skilled medics and spend a lot of their time healing others and studing the medical arts, but when they could just as easily turn around and decapitate some one or shatter a stone wall with a single punch, that's nothing to scoff at.

Because it doesn't actually matter.

First, if you paid attention to Tsunade's speach, you'll notice that her main point was that medic ninja DO NOT engage the enemy. To do so puts the entier team at risk: the medic goes down, and who'll patch up the rest of the team?

That's good, sound logic, but it forces all the medics into a passive role. Normaly, that wouldn't be an issue. But if all the medics are women, it darn well becomes an issue.

The usual formula for a female character involves her being a third wheel: she is outside the normal interaction between male characters. No matter how important to the male characters she is, she is still "outside": a person to protect, one who needs a boost when fighting, one who doesn't factor into the rivalry between the boys except as a prize, etc. In a way, she's almost a cut-out. "Girl goes here lolz". Take a look at Sakura's role. Yes, she is important. But she is totaly outside the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto. She can't touch them. (It's very interesting that Kishimoto has chosen to highlight this fact, actually, by having Sakura herself coment on it).

That's why women usualy get the "white mage/medic" role. Because it's outside of combat. No matter how potent a healer she is, she is still stuck in a passive role, one that enforces a need to be protected on her.

As I said in the comment above, I have no problem with women in "traditional" women's roles. But I take offence to all female characters, regardles of personality or various strengths, being automaticaly assigned a passive role. I take offence when so few of the male characters (uh, one?) are shown to have taken on that passive role.

And now you come to the meat of the debate Verd and I are having. Verd seems to be convinced that Kishimoto just plain doesn't like female characters, or is writing them in a rather awful manner (and please, correct me if I'm wrong, neh?)

Personaly, I have a more leniant philosophy. I feel that Kishimoto has actually done a good job of variying his female characters. A lot of them have solid ground work towards being something other than just cardbord cut-outs. But the fact that he seems to be back sliding into the 'traditional' formula is disheartening. Ino's becoming a medic for no apparent reason, when her talent lay elsewhere (like, say, espionage or brain control like her dad) is one of those disheartening signs. Shikamaru's vow to protect Kurenai is a double edged blade. While it's a sweet gesture, and (considering the theoreticaly high mortality rate of ninja) probably a necessity, it means that we don't get to see a positive look at a single mother (I can only think of, uh, one? No, two, I think. But one's dead, so she doean't really count).

And I'll add that yes, boy's manga are probably not the bleeding edge of progress for equality of the sexes. But it's where we'd like it to be: in media and entertainment, where it's taken for granted that gender is pretty much interchangable for most (if not all) roles.  

[Syndactyly]

I was kind of pissed too. Shikamaru, a kid, talking down to a grown woman like that.

But my step dad explained. His full explanation (and yes, he's Asian and lived in Japan for 3 years) that Shikamaru was trying to be honorable. His sensei died, and Kurenai felt abandoned. Shikamaru was trying to help her feel better. But I said, "That wouldn't make me feel better (if I were her). I'd be pissed!" My step dad then told me that even though Shikamaru's intentions were good, it doesn't mean those were the results. Even though he was giving out a kind gesture, it was naive. My step dad said it was a dumb thing like what a kid would do. Kids try to be nice all the time, but they make dumb mistakes.

I think most of the people here underestimate medics. I agree with liz. Okay, so they're not "supposed" to engage in battle. They still can. If they engage in battle, they cannot heal without harming themselves. That does not make them useless. A medic is both a healer and a fighter, where a soldier is just a fighter. Those healing abilities weaken, and falter with damage, which is why Tsunade said a medic could die if harmed.

Man, you just love to beat the hell out of Shikamaru. I have just about confirmed it; you couldn't live without flirting with him for... a week.  

[liz_bliz_inc]

I'm still not seeing that many number wise that are purely dedicated medics.

Tsunade: medic, but with superhuman strength, summoning capabilities and massive battle skill and experience. That and she is one of the ******** senin that could each take on a kage and have a good chance of coming out on top.

Sakura: medic, but with superhuman strength, is a said genjutsu specialist to begin with and a proven cunning in battle. (at least after the time skip) She was said by Kakashi to be the strongest of his group when it came to charka control, intelligence and how she made use of the skills she had, even though she had less raw power than her teamates (because one is the child of one of the strongest Uchiha families and the other has a god-damn demon in him). The problem is she is always compared to her teamates when, really, she could as of now, pretty much own every other person from their generation outside of her team that we have seen, with the exception of probably Neji, and I would say she could give him a run for his money IMO.

Ino: at least to me, a not dedicated medic. It seems like it's something she learned to do on the side to benefit her team, but is self admitedly not that strong of a medic and said she was onyl just learning. So obviously she spent most of the time skip learning other things. I know she was all but usless in the latetess battle, but so was Chouji, someone who is suppose to be the genin groups (pre-time skip, chuunin after) second in raw power and charka levels, behind Naruto. Shikamru said so during the Sasuke rescue ark. Yet he was just as usless, so I don't think it means much.

Shizune: Yeah, mostly a medic, but she's still a jonin, which means she has skills of at least that level. She did hold Kabuto off for a bit and he's nearly at Kakashi's level.

Male medics or otherwise involved in medicine

Kabuto: medic, but incredibly battle oriented in his use of it. I don't like him personally, but he's proven he has his s**t down.

Shikaku: doesn't use medical jutsus that we've seen, but he is involved in medical studies and the use of medical mixture/potions, as is stated near the end of the Sasuke rescue arch.

almost every non-main character medic has appeared male.

Non-medic females:

Tenten: chunnin at 16, probably before that though.

Temeri: ******** jonin already, increadibly battle oriented and dominate

Hinata: we don't know yet, she is a chuunin though.

Anko: jonin specialist (is ranked the same as Genma (took on Baki, a sand jonin elite and fought to a draw), Geko (the dude was sick when he lost) or Raido(one of the 3rds bodygaurds), near elite, skilled, strong and hyper. Probably the farthest from femanine attitude wise of all the woman characters.

Kurenai: still a jonin elite. 8 months pregnant and still could still beat most people's face in.

so, 4 ninja medics that are female and main characters and 5 main that are not even slightly medical nins...off the top of my head. Of course we still don't know about hinata, but I have money on her not being a medic.  

[attila the fun]

CrabappleRed

As for her being unstable - all the ninjas are unstable. Look at Kakashi. Look at GAI! Neji, Sasuke, Sai, Sasori, Zabuza, Haku . . . none of them are the picture of mental health. Tsunade's jaded instability makes sense, especialy considering her backstory.

True, but Tsunade's instability is much more stereotypically female. She has an illogical attachment to Naruto because he looks like her brother. She's headstrong--not a problem, but the next part is--and seems to refuse council from Koharu and...uh...that other old person, even when it's logical. She's easily swayed by emotional appeals (e.g., Orochimaru's offer to her when they were still wandering around).

Also, although Tsunade's a sannin, she has to be--because they're a team, and they need a woman. So Kishi made the requisite woman...and made her a medic.  

[Syndactyly]

I'm still leaning with Liz on this one.

There are CERTAINLY more male medics than female medics. We've seen it.

There are MEDICAL NIN and then there are NURSES.

Nurses, which are the girls you see, are COMMON FOLK who know A LITTLE ninjutsu. Medical Nin actually go out on the field and assist a cell. People tend to forget that not EVERYONE in Konoha is a Shinobi.  

[Captain Verd]

CrabappleRed

And now you come to the meat of the debate Verd and I are having. Verd seems to be convinced that Kishimoto just plain doesn't like female characters, or is writing them in a rather awful manner (and please, correct me if I'm wrong, neh?)

No no, I don't have any serious beef with chicks being put in chick roles, that's fine. I was just pointing out that he does that with alot of them. I like all the chicks being medics, and had a giggle fest when Dan showed up (CUT YER HAIR YA FREAKIN HIPPIE).  

[Captain Verd]

@ Liz - It doesn't matter how strong they are, especially in Tsunade's and Sakura's case. Just because, say, Shizune is a jounin, doesn't mean she isn't a healer wearing heels. Tsunade could be the strongest ninja in the universe, but she's still in a largely feminine role.  

[Syndactyly]

Captain Verd

@ Liz - It doesn't matter how strong they are, especially in Tsunade's and Sakura's case. Just because, say, Shizune is a jounin, doesn't mean she isn't a healer wearing heels. Tsunade could be the strongest ninja in the universe, but she's still in a largely feminine role.

And what is wrong with being a woman?

Are you saying that in order to be strong or play an appropriate role, we must all be men?

What is wrong with being a woman? If Tsunade played a masculine role, would she not be a man?