|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:07 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:51 am
Hm, I wanted to have a thought out reply to your posts and have time to reflect.
D:
Also, I have finals. gonk But I will post my reply soon. I'm very glad you put up quotes though, gives me more to discuss with.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:28 pm
First I want to say, I am posting in such a matter to pick your brain. I'm not doing it to personally insult or attack you, I just want you to think more in depth than simply saying "because Allah said so"
I am disgusted with such an answer. I know that many of you are still pretty young and are strongly influenced by what your parents have taught you. But you are growing up and the childish answer "because Allah said so" is no longer satisfactory to many people.
It's like me saying that alcohol is a great thing, because I said so. There is no thought process, just a mindless answer. However, I believe that the Lord God has given us the unique ability to rationalize, reflect, and analyze our surroundings and our belief systems, whether it be belief in God or belief in science can prove how things work or simply the belief that when I wake up in the morning, I will be able to walk downstairs.
Now that you know precisely why I answer in such a fashion I will address your religious points.
-How is the hijab a blessing for women when it is so easily used to chain women to thinking that they are only good if they wear certian types of clothing? And why isn't that men aren't held as tightly to the same standard. I know that there are "recommended" clothing types for men, but it is not as strictly or as loudly thrown at men the way it is as women. Quite frankly, when I read that "this is what a believing woman wears" I found it little more than peer pressure. The same reason why some girls in school believe that the only way to show a woman's worth is to dress scantily and hope to attract as many guys as possible.
All I see is sexism at its worst.
-Prevent molestation.
How the heck is a hijab supposed to be a shield to prevent guys from coming up to a covered woman and not bother her? How the heck is a hijab going to "prevent lustful thoughts"?
Walking outside, regardless of what you are wearing, is going to be a risk. I don't care if your blooming sweating your a** off in clothing or walking in itty bitty shorts and a bikini top, there's still the same chance of something bad happening regardless. People get attacked because they are a target. Wanna know why children get attacked so often? Because they are easy targets to take advantage of and hurt. Women get attacked because they have made themselves to be a target, unintentionally. If you look like an easy target and you are all covered up, so what? You become an easy target. Depending on that clothing isn't practical solution to a terrible problem.
-Modesty
Why are woman solely becoming modest? Why aren't guys held to the same standards? I have seen many, many sorts of guys from afar that are very handsome and encourage lustful thoughts. Women aren't the only pretty things that God created, you know.
-This whole deal about it being part of faith and obedience leads to going into paradise.
Why is it then, that if I was married, wore a hijab, my husband STILL gets the better end of the deal, even if I did according to what Allah said? While my husband is getting off to 72 virgins in Paradise, where does it leave me? Yay, paradise! rolleyes
How does wearing hijab signify obedience anyways? Allah said to and I did it. Wow, that's, great. stare Why did Allah say it was a symbol of obedience? Why does this sacrifice of stuffing myself into coverings while my husband gets to walk around in modern clothing an excellent example of obedience? Again, this whole thing still stinks of sexism.
I say this stuff lacks logic because I believe that God is a rational being. Look at the world around you! The fact that you are able to type and respond to me is a testimony that the Lord God is a rational being. You can think you can communicate, your cells are able to function and send messages to the brain to translate the words that you see. That, is logic, there is a reason why the neurons activate, there's a reason why you are alive and thinking, there's are reason why we can communicate as thus.
On that note, with God being a rational being, why should there be such vagueness and blatant sexism in rules? It seems that God favors the men over the women already, just by examining the concept of the hijab and how "being modest" is so forced onto women and not men. All I see from what you posted is the following:
-the only way to be a true believing woman is to wear this type of clothing
-this is supposed to prevent molestation
-because it's a symbol of obedience to God (without a real explanation why)
-best (meaning, the only) way for women to be modest
They seem like childish answers than anything else. Or excuses to say that women are only good when covered up and only uncovered with her husband.
You seem to forget that people have the capacity of self control. I'm trained to be able to kill someone with a knife, how to kill as a group. Doesn't mean I'm wandering will-nilly going to go kill people I despise. I've been to a nudist colony and seen human self-control at its best. People are walking around stark naked, nothing on, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And guess what? Nobody, NOBODY tried and go nuts to have sex or tried to feel up other people. I saw men with their wives, walking around comfortably in nothing but their own skin. I saw guys walking around, single women walking around, and you know what? NOTHING happened. It's pretty amazing. There are plenty of cases of nudist colonies that have men and women walk around together, perfectly naked and perfectly content. So again, I really don't get how your "you're not covered" is a bad thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:57 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:09 am
Diden't read it though lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:28 am
Whatever happened to the values of humanity,
Whatever happened to the fairness in equality...
Okay, I have several important issues I have to deal with, so I'll keep this one short. =D Or as short as I can xd I do believe my last post was quite an eyesore. ^^ It's quality, not quantity, right? =P
Okay, your first paragraph, you're not posting to 'personally insult or attack' me. All the religion-based things you said did not insult me in any way whatsoever. Only the ‘post style’ and the ‘brainwashed’ incident, however I'm not childish enough to take it to heart, so that will be forgotten. Consider it in the past.
Numero deux. One of the major misconceptions about the hijab is that young women are forced to wear it by their parents or by male family members. (As you have clearly stated.) Parents or men have nothing to do with it, and every woman should have this form of liberation. When a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. The hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want. When you wear the hijab you feel modest...and you feel like you're covered up. You have more self-respect. You have more confidence in yourself that you don't need to care about how you look. Just like you said, girls try to prove themselves to men in 'itty bitty shorts and a bikini top', so these girls don't find it so necessary to do this. It keeps you protected from the fashion industry. The hijab liberates you from the media, brainwashing you into, 'Buy this, buy that.', you're supposed to look like this, you have to wear that - you don't have to worry about being popular through buying things that are 'cool'.
Also, the hijab provides you with an extra layer of 'identity'. You don't have to tell people you're Muslim. It shows.
Some people may think (as you do) that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism. I'm astonished at the behaviour of women who claim to want 'freedom'. How does being topless, for example, resemble equality? People have to understand that we (males and females) are not equal in body image but we should be equal in rights, in justice. Taking off your shirt will not make you equal to a man; it'll make you lower. Why? Because the woman's body is created differently. We have by far, more 'private' private parts than men. >_>
But...still...I don't think it's necessary for a woman to wear a hijab to gain respect. Just because a woman covers, doesn't mean she is automatically entitled to respect, or has already proven the worth of her mind. Respect must be earned regardless of one's appearance and it is not earned through a dress code alone. Having internal modesty is more important than external modesty. This external covering is really just a reflection of an inner commitment to dedicate oneself to the worship of Allah.
Now, the part I was saving. I AGREE. I HATE ANY FORM OF SEXISM. I myself am strong in the belief of men-and-women equal rights. It's an OUTRAGE how women have been treated in the past, and even in this very present!! We give birth to the next generations, including those very men!!! We should get our respect!!! scream So you see, if I thought, even by an OUNCE, that Islam was sexist, I wouldn't be part of it. Now, my Islamic views on the hijab being connected to sexism. Both men and women are required to dedicate themselves to God, but it is only women who are expected to demonstrate this dedication outwardly in the form of hijab. This expectation on the part of women is what many find difficult to accept. However, women are more at risk, and I know you say it only happens if the women stupidly puts herself at risk. However, how will this woman know if there's a rapist hiding round the corner? Or a knife-wielding lustful murderer seaking out pretty girls hiding behind a bush? The don't. Also, you say that if a woman were to be attacked, and this woman happened to be an Islamic extremist (therefore wearing the hijab and the jilbab, maybe even the face covering), then she would have a less likelier chance of being able to escape. However, then again, the same goes for a girl wearing itty bitty shorts and a bikini...with stilettos. Or a girl loaded down with her many cosmetics, which she had found necassary to take with her. The same would go for both. And you can say it's a simple matter for the girl to throw aside her cosmetics, or pull off her stilletos, but doesn't the same go for the muslim girl? It'll take precious few seconds for her to hoist up her jilbab and run like hell. We're free to wear whatever we want underneath, afterall.
Ah, I do tend to stray from subjects. stressed Sexism. The image of women in Islam is one of sexism and degradation. One of inferiority, and one of disgrace. One of inequality, and one of male domination. In fact, nothing could be further from orthodox Islamic teachings. The Quran is the basis of all Islam and history shows that the application of it has not always been one of contradiction. Now, in Islam there are very specific rules relating to the equality of men and women. They are both looked upon as being equal in soul and in mind, and in spiritual responsibilities. Of course, they are not looked upon as the same; but merely different. Islam isn't as sexist as the modern day student would think. (I have to admit, so did I ^^') For example, you cannot say that the role of the mother is the same as the role of the father, or vice versa; because they are different. But you cannot say that one is inferior to the other. The mother cares for the newborn baby a lot more than the father does and this sort of motherly love is held in the highest regard in Islam. The Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, was asked by a follower one day whom he should treat with more affection. The prophet answered, "Your mother." The man asked who was next in line, and again the prophet replied, "Your mother." He asked again and the response the same; it was not until the fourth time that the prophet said, "Your father." The prophet also said," Paradise lies at the feet of mothers."
Statistics show that 25% of all reported crime in the UK are violent assaults on women. The question of violence towards women in Islam is very clear. IT IS NOT ALLOWED. The honour of women is of extreme merit, and no man may dare to infringe upon it. Islam does not permit any sort of abuse to women; verbal or otherwise. Wife beaters were declared by the prophet not be Muslims and it has been reported that the prophet never hit any child or any woman. In fact, rape or any assault on women is a very serious crime in Islam. In Islam, women are not regarded as the fountain of all evil; Eve is not blamed for Adam's mistake; both were at fault and both repented. In spiritual matters, a woman is as responsible as the man is; this is clear. Both have to fulfill the requirements of being a Muslim; in fact, the woman can even have the easier time! During Ramadan, which is the Muslim month of fasting and cleansing, a woman does not fast, if her menstruation cycle happens to be in place. This also applies to their praying; they can be excused from praying during this cycle. Nevertheless, Islam can never be classed as sexist. I have taken the following extract from a well-known and admired lecturer.
"The history regarding women in Islam is also astounding, considering what Muslim women are thought of today. If you look at the historical account of women is Islam, then you will find there as well that women were not devalued. Before Islam came, the people of the world disgraced women. They treated them as cattle, as dishonourable things. In fact, many families would kill a newly born baby simply because it was a girl. Can you imagine that? It is dire indeed; the prophet thought so, because one the many things that he put a stop to was that. But before Islam came, women were not allowed to marry who they chose, or own property, or businesses; in essence, their role was to be pretty, stay in the home for all their lives and be breeding stock. And then, in the Islamic world, over 1400 hundred years ago, that all changed. Women were given the right to own; in fact as I said before, if their husbands were incapable of handling their businesses or assets properly, wives were permitted to take over from them! The wife of the prophet, may God be pleased with her, was not only his wife. She was also his employer; he worked for her! Oh, and by the way, he did not ask her to marry him; she asked him to marry her. And because of her righteousness, because of her decency, she is regarded to be one of the most reliable sources of information regarding the prophet's life. If she were inferior, why would the prophet have accepted her proposal? If she were inferior, why would he have worked for her? If she were inferior, why would male Muslim scholars today still accept her observations regarding the prophet? History shows that in the beginning, Islam was the true emancipator of women."
Also, you say: '...excuses to say that women are only good when covered up and only uncovered with her husband.' Admit it, if you were completely nude infront of someone, who's there to judge whther you're good or not? >_> Plus, women are completely free to wear what they want at home, or whichever sanctuary they choose. They can wear anything they want infront of other women, and relatives. The only time a woman has to wear the hijab and jilbab is when she knows she will be subject to the attention of men who she cannot call relatives, and have reached and passed the age of puberty. This leaves her free from the jilbab and hijab at most times.
Nudist camps? O.o
These are my views on the opinions you have expressed.
People have the capacity of self control, you say. You've been to a nudist colony and seen human self-control 'at its best'. Well let me ask you something, if people have enough self control to control themselves...why have our very own GOVERNMENTS, presidents, and councillors banned nudity in public places? Why do they, these learned men and women, like you say, not trust in 'the people having the capacity of self control'? And this isn't just a small percentage of people I'm talking about, it's people who gather and debate it, and decide to keep this law firmly in place.
These nudist camps you speak of, how many people do they possess? A hundred? A couple of hundred? A thousand would be astounding. And why, in this world, full of BILLIONS of people, are there only a few people that practice nudity? Of course, there may be a couple of hundred people in a nudist camp, and then a couple of hundred of nudist camps. However, no matter how many nudist camps you decide to make, the majority of people in the world wearing clothes will of surpass it, by far. The Indians wear their sari's, the Japanese wear their kimono's, the girls of Ukraine wear their sorochki, the West African's wear their boubou's - need I carry on? All over the world people wear clothes, no matter the style. The ratio of people wearing clothes to people who decide to go nude will ALWAYS be up and over by millions. But why? Because really, EVERYBODY knows, DEEP DOWN INSIDE OF THEM, that we humans are weak, we easily succumb to ourselves. Well the majority of us anyways. Again, the point that these people were walking around naked and were able to completely control themselves does weaken my theory to some extent. However, these are my thoughts on it.
~These people have trained themselves to not do it (after time, and learning from others).
~These people are in a controlled environment, like you said, no body is ALLOWED to go around touching people up.
~These people are surrounded by people just like them, they're ALL naked.
However, if a person (nude) walked down the street, WHAT would you do?!! What would EVERYONE do?!?! People will laugh, blush, scream, call the police, whatever, however everyone's reaction will be one of shock. Even you say yourself.
"It's pretty amazing."
Now why would you say that, if you hadn't expected these people to act...well, like how they would act normally, in a normal environment? I know, I have shown NO PROOF of why being uncovered is a bad thing, but hey - I just proved the whole world is on my side, and even people of high standing like the government.
Blergh, I don't even know if I made sense up there, but I'm sleepy. >_> ~bye bye!~
☻/
/▌
/
Az says bye!~
Instead of spreading love we're spreading animosity,
Lack of understanding, leading lives away from unity...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:42 am
Ehm, u can do alot in soo litlle time surprised
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:11 am
The_Pathan Mashallah mashallah mashallah!!!!!!!!!! You didn't even read it, didn't you... stare
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:19 am
Quote: @Rainari: You say why hadn't Allah just create us with the hijabs on already, well, Allah SWT tests us. He sends difficulties our way to see how we cope. He wants to see if we will keep trying even when it's a challenge. He wants to see if we will maintain our faith in Him, and trust in Him. If we do continue to have faith and to trust in Him, then He may reward us with Jannah for our sabr, inshallah. And Jannah is the everlasting reward. Any difficulty we face in the world will seem as fleeting as a nightmare when we look back from the Hereafter, and any ease we face in the world will also seem as fleeting as a dream. We shouldn't set these fleeting states as our goal; we should set the ultimate happiness as our goal. And the ultimate happiness is Jannah. So, wearing the hijab is something for YOUR sake, not His. ^^' Well, I think that's the way it goes anyway ^^' Thanks for answering. It doesn't make sense, wait, it's satan, hey zaki, ZAKI, Count said that I am possessed by satan, wiee...nice Wait, I'm gonna make a topic about it. stare
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:27 am
_rainarai_ Quote: @Rainari: You say why hadn't Allah just create us with the hijabs on already, well, Allah SWT tests us. He sends difficulties our way to see how we cope. He wants to see if we will keep trying even when it's a challenge. He wants to see if we will maintain our faith in Him, and trust in Him. If we do continue to have faith and to trust in Him, then He may reward us with Jannah for our sabr, inshallah. And Jannah is the everlasting reward. Any difficulty we face in the world will seem as fleeting as a nightmare when we look back from the Hereafter, and any ease we face in the world will also seem as fleeting as a dream. We shouldn't set these fleeting states as our goal; we should set the ultimate happiness as our goal. And the ultimate happiness is Jannah. So, wearing the hijab is something for YOUR sake, not His. ^^' Well, I think that's the way it goes anyway ^^' Thanks for answering. It doesn't make sense, wait, it's satan, hey zaki, ZAKI, Count said that I am possessed by satan, wiee...nice Wait, I'm gonna make a topic about it. stare Woot??? Count says alot. wink Dont talk bad about someone smile I will try to see if i can talk to u. But count can say lotsa wrong things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:33 am
The_Pathan _rainarai_ Quote: @Rainari: You say why hadn't Allah just create us with the hijabs on already, well, Allah SWT tests us. He sends difficulties our way to see how we cope. He wants to see if we will keep trying even when it's a challenge. He wants to see if we will maintain our faith in Him, and trust in Him. If we do continue to have faith and to trust in Him, then He may reward us with Jannah for our sabr, inshallah. And Jannah is the everlasting reward. Any difficulty we face in the world will seem as fleeting as a nightmare when we look back from the Hereafter, and any ease we face in the world will also seem as fleeting as a dream. We shouldn't set these fleeting states as our goal; we should set the ultimate happiness as our goal. And the ultimate happiness is Jannah. So, wearing the hijab is something for YOUR sake, not His. ^^' Well, I think that's the way it goes anyway ^^' Thanks for answering. It doesn't make sense, wait, it's satan, hey zaki, ZAKI, Count said that I am possessed by satan, wiee...nice Wait, I'm gonna make a topic about it. stare Woot??? Count says alot. wink Dont talk bad about someone smile I will try to see if i can talk to u. But count can say lotsa wrong things. What? How did I talk bad about someone?! Why are you gonna talk to me? -_-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:01 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:42 pm
The_Pathan Ehm, u can do alot in soo litlle time surprised Whatever happened to the values of humanity,
Whatever happened to the fairness in equality...
Did I? O.o Actually, I started it yesterday when I came on late in the night ^^ but then my brother came downstairs. He came in the room, saw me, done a double-take and screamed at me: 'YOU'RE STILL AWAKE?! HAVE YOU ANY IDEA WHAT THE TIME IS?!!?!' and I was like, 'Emm, half eleven?' and he goes, 'HALF ELEVEN?!?! IT'S HALF ONE!!!' scream And I was like, 'Oh...heh...hehh...hehh...^^'...'. So yeah. >_> I had to save it on Microsoft Word and finish it in the morning. xd
I have to admit, I've never gone this far in a Islamic-based debate before ^^ I don't know why I hadn't taken it up before. =P It's fun!! Teehee~
@Rain: SOMEONE CALLED YOU A SAITAN??!?!!? WHO??? THAT'S A SIN YOU KNOW!!!! scream
☻/
/▌
/
Az says hello!~
Instead of spreading love we're spreading animosity,
Lack of understanding, leading lives away from unity...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:30 pm
oOo-Az-oOo @Rain: SOMEONE CALLED YOU A SAITAN??!?!!? WHO??? THAT'S A SIN YOU KNOW!!!! scream agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:37 am
The one who did it, also wrote ******** at facebook...
I thought he would be more vice lol
Rania woulden't get punnished from family from leaving Islam, when her parrents ain't muslims?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
