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 Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:39 pm
Whatever happened to the values of humanity,
Whatever happened to the fairness in equality...
Haha. xd swearing doesn't make a difference to me - I hear people swearing every day of my life. =P That's what happens when you live in East London. sweatdrop
I don't think we should talk about Rania when she's not here ^^ I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate it. =D But still...the poor thing...='(
☻/
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Az says hello!~
Instead of spreading love we're spreading animosity,
Lack of understanding, leading lives away from unity...
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:35 pm
You and Misconceptions about the Hijab
Ah, see this is where I get most confused about the hijab. You start quoting from the Qu’ran and from hadiths about how important this hijab is, how essential it is for a female believer, a command from Allah, and then you say “OH HOLD ON IT’S A PERSONAL CHOICE”. I find that contradictory, because from all the quotes that you provided earlier, it made it seem MANDATORY for a female to wear this thing.
My next argument has to deal with “being covered up lets a man judge you for who you really are”. I’ve got another issue with this. I find that, even covered up, appearances are very deceiving. Given the stigma that the hijab has, which I will simplify to show my point.
Wearing a hijab=very modest, caring woman who is religious and chaste.
Not wearing a hijab or certain covering= not modest, probably not religious or chaste.
And I don’t know how aware of this stereotype you have unintentionally created, but it’s a terrible one. I know girls that do dress scantily and have lots of makeup on. Yet some of them are very religious and adjust their attire for church. They are some of the most dedicated, helpful people I know. And there are girls I know that do dress modestly but are vipers. They are nasty, self-absorbed creatures that make it their personal goal to make people feel miserable.
Now, whether you have intended that primitive level of thinking or not, you have enabled it. You have promoted a basic level of thinking that has allowed men to twist something as simple as wanting to be modest and proudly display that you are a Muslim, to making it the chains of a woman’s rights. Look at the Muslim countries that have had such terrible dictatorships. Who are the first to suffer? The women. The Taliban and Iran are notorious for their blatant and terrible abuse of women and have strangled the simple notion of the hijab being an option garb to promote modesty to making it mandatory or suffering the consequences. Even in the west, in the UK, in the US there are fathers and brothers that destroy their own female family members because the female decided that she did not want to wear the hijab anymore.
I do understand the thinking by the hijab, I honestly do, but I do not agree with it because it has been so sorely maligned. I think on a basic level, it’s a nice concept, but it’s too easily exploited, with too often, fatal results.
Simply put, I have no problem if a woman CHOOSES to wear a hijab if she does it because she wants to, and is not pressured by her religion, her peers, or her family to conform to something. I find it, when it is chosen freely, it is much like the nuns in Catholicism that wear a certain clothing to mark what religious order they are from and for easy identification as a nun. Or like certain priests and friars, of the male clergy. Some wear certain garments as a mark of their order. Priests are also expect to wear a particular outfit that identifies them as a Catholic priest. Not all religious orders that do it, but there are some that do it because they believe that it will make them better adhere to their vows to the Church. It's not my cup of tea, and I don't believe its the sole way to be modest as a woman, just one of many ways....provided again, it is chosen freely and not done because your mother does it, your friends do and your father wants you to wear it.
The issue of Equality in clothing
Quote: . How does being topless, for example, resemble equality? People have to understand that we (males and females) are not equal in body image but we should be equal in rights, in justice. Taking off your shirt will not make you equal to a man; it'll make you lower. Why? Because the woman's body is created differently. We have by far, more 'private' private parts than men. >_>
First, to explain equality, I need to give you a lesson on human development and the physiology of the human body.
From inside the womb, until the second “X” chromosome is activated, everyone starts off as a female. Everyone. The same erectile tissue that makes up the p***s is the same tissue that makes up the fattytissue with the labia majora and minora. Men and women both have breasts. Breasts are NOT essential for sexual reproduction. In fact, aside from feeding a suckling infant, there is no other reason why women have breasts. Yet they are considered sexual? Both genders have breasts with nipples. And both genders can be aroused with rubbing the nipples. So to say that breasts are sexual and “private” parts really doesn’t make sense. Because not all cultures and societies view the breasts as being an “oogling part” of a female body. A good many cultures and societies do keep up with this misguided opinion, but not everybody.
And to say that I will be lower than a man because I walk around topless doesn’t make any sense either. How am I lowering myself to trash when I really don’t give a damn what people think because they can see my breasts? And the women’s body in art for centuries was considered on of the most perfect forms on the planet, particularly in Europe, and thus, there was a focus on drawing naked women for their beauty and curves. Women in Africa do it a lot in their tribes and they’re not thought less of, some are, but not all. My problem with walking around topless is all the bouncing my breasts will do and that’s pretty uncomfortable.
But when I talk about dressing inequality, I’m talking about the fact that men in Islam are not held to strict dressing standards as women are. Dressing inequality is only a step in creating inequality. It allows men to specify what is proper for a lady and what isn’t and what is expected of women. It’s a social construct that allows for inequalities to proliferate. Heck, women weren’t allowed to do a lot of things in the past based on their clothing, because what they were allowed to wear made it very difficult to do many other things in life. It happened the same in Western countries as well, where women were taught specific ways of dressing were the only acceptable ways of dressing. For centuries women were expected to wear some form of dress/skirt./long sleeved top, and for some time, the corset was a popular way to have “reputable women”. Something as simple as pants and shirt were considered “manly” and for men only. That is the kind of inequality in dressing I am talking about. Not just the ability to walk shirtless. Being able to bear your breast is NOT my focus of dressing equality.
Sexism and Islam and why I am disagreeing with youQuote: Both men and women are required to dedicate themselves to God, but it is only women who are expected to demonstrate this dedication outwardly in the form of hijab. This expectation on the part of women is what many find difficult to accept. However, women are more at risk, and I know you say it only happens if the women stupidly puts herself at risk. Quote: However, how will this woman know if there's a rapist hiding round the corner? Or a knife-wielding lustful murderer seaking out pretty girls hiding behind a bush? The don't. Also, you say that if a woman were to be attacked, and this woman happened to be an Islamic extremist (therefore wearing the hijab and the jilbab, maybe even the face covering), then she would have a less likelier chance of being able to escape. However, then again, the same goes for a girl wearing itty bitty shorts and a bikini...with stilettos. Or a girl loaded down with her many cosmetics, which she had found necassary to take with her. The same would go for both. And you can say it's a simple matter for the girl to throw aside her cosmetics, or pull off her stilletos, but doesn't the same go for the muslim girl? It'll take precious few seconds for her to hoist up her jilbab and run like hell. We're free to wear whatever we want underneath, afterall. Quote: The honour of women is of extreme merit, and no man may dare to infringe upon it. Islam does not permit any sort of abuse to women; verbal or otherwise. Wife beaters were declared by the prophet not be Muslims and it has been reported that the prophet never hit any child or any woman. In fact, rape or any assault on women is a very serious crime in Islam. In Islam, women are not regarded as the fountain of all evil
See, you’re telling me one thing, and I’m seeing something else in Islam. Do you really want me to cite the Amnesty international on how horrible Islamic countries are to women? How husbands brutally slaughter their wives and rape their wives because they have a marital disagreement? Or a father that kills his daughter for wanting divorce? Now, I understand that this happens in Islamic countries, that are ruled by ruthless and corrupt dictators, but seriously? It’s supposed to be a religion of peace and tolerance? And how many women are killed for fornification because they cannot produce enough evidence of being raped in Shariah court? How is something as maintaining the ‘honor of the women’ and keeping it ‘intact’ so wonderful if it is so ridiculously maligned beyond comparison and serves as a way to wrap a woman around a man’s thumb?
Heck, I can cite numerous sources where brutal acts of killing women are TOLERATED by Muslims in the WEST.
And before you scream : “THAT’S NOT WHAT ISLAM TEACHES”, which I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND, it’s the fact that it is TOLERATED and ENCOURAGED by Muslims is what gets under my skin. The silent majority allows the extreme minority to state what Islam means to the world according to extremists. Quote: Admit it, if you were completely nude infront of someone, who's there to judge whther you're good or not? >_> Quote: People have the capacity of self control, you say. You've been to a nudist colony and seen human self-control 'at its best'.
I apologize, I should have been clearer. I meant to say is that humans can see each other naked without falling upon each other like ravenous animals. Because the existence of nudist colonies themselves are a testimony to the concept that a “guy seeing more parts of a woman is going to think and do bad things” is total bullshit.
Don’t worry, it’s not just the Muslim concept that it calls bullshit, but the rest of the religions that believe that too. One of them being Christianity itself. ;D
The reason why there’s not many is OMG HUGE COUNTRY NUMBERS is because many people share the exact same mindset as you: that seeing men and women naked will incite lust and encourage illicit sexual relations. And nudist colonies are not for everybody. Not everyone can tolerate that kind of attitude, and therefore it is limited in certain places. But it exists.
And I don’t know about you, but I really don’t care for the concept of being naked on cold days, which is another reason why it’s limited. You’ll see nudist colonies somewhere in bright sunny places verses somewhere like Russia. It’s common sense. Because reasonable people believe that clothing provides a manner of protection from the weather, me included. But to be able to look at the human body without spouting sexual thoughts, now that is quite amazing. Because then, you’re not bothered by how a woman looks, clothed, scantily clothed, fully clothed, or naked. You’re not being attracted to a woman by her appearance, but how she interacts with people, her values and her intelligence or whatnot. It’s a completely different way of achieving the same goal: to be able to like a person beyond appearance.
Now am I saying that the whole world should go nude to force people to accept that appearances are shallow things?
No. Absolutely not.
It’s not practical except in small communities. Same with something like communism. On a global scale it doesn’t work because, like you said, human nature is a terrible thing. It exploits something pretty and manageable and lovely and manipulates it to some sort of horrid beast. But I don’t agree that wearing a hijab or covering up completely is the right way either. You’re merely giving another tool for human nature to manipulate. The Taliban should be a primary example of taking something simple as wanting to be modest and show what religion you belong to and making it a bane of female Muslims in Afghanistan.
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:15 am
Whatever happened to the values of humanity,
Whatever happened to the fairness in equality...
Wow, you put up a great argument. =D I'll try to get back to you about it sometime later ^^ I've got loadsa exam revision to do. gonk Forgive meh~
~Till then, Az. biggrin
☻/
/▌
/
Instead of spreading love we're spreading animosity,
Lack of understanding, leading lives away from unity...
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:41 am
 Heh, one great reply deserves another. I like your responses a lot. ;3
heh, I'll post to your post when I'm not so sick. So if you post and don't get a reply from me chances are I'm still too sick to do a decent debate. Good luck on your finals.
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:00 am
Again, do you really think that God, the creator o the Cosmos, the Infinite and Singular, made you so that you would wear a man-made cloth over your face? You really think God cares about that bullshit?
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:12 am
Slick Southpaw Heh, one great reply deserves another. I like your responses a lot. ;3
heh, I'll post to your post when I'm not so sick. So if you post and don't get a reply from me chances are I'm still too sick to do a decent debate. Good luck on your finals.
Allah cares!!! Divin razz And Ratri, we can see that on your avi lol
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Prove to me that he cares, without using the Qu'ran. Face it- Your guidelines are arbitrary manmade assumptions about a being with infinite nature.
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:52 am
divineseraph Prove to me that he cares, without using the Qu'ran. Face it- Your guidelines are arbitrary manmade assumptions about a being with infinite nature. i care about you and do not tell you that i do, Now prove to me if i care about you or not?
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:19 am
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:16 pm
divineseraph Again, do you really think that God, the creator o the Cosmos, the Infinite and Singular, made you so that you would wear a man-made cloth over your face? You really think God cares about that bullshit? Whatever happened to the values of humanity,
Whatever happened to the fairness in equality...
Actually, get your facts straight. The veil isn't compulsory, only the covering of everything apart from the hands and face. =D And what d'you mean 'does God care about that bullshit'?? Of course He does!! He made us, right down to atoms and genes and DNA, from the planets and asteroids to the gravitational pull of the sun, from the skeletal system, nervous system, reproductive system - heck, Allah cares about EVERYTHING!!! Plus, I find it rather FUNNY how you say something in a thread and then never come back to face the responses of what you've said. >_>
☻/
/▌
/
Az says hello!~
Instead of spreading love we're spreading animosity,
Lack of understanding, leading lives away from unity...
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:27 pm
And why would God care if we see his Creation?
And again, they are arbitrary rules made by PEOPLE.
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:45 am
yea - and the people 1400 years ago really did know about the fact that a sperm and egg mix get fertilised and it looks like a chewed bit of flest --- u guys just discovered it know -- and muslims who read the quraan 1400 years ago and knew that -- with microo0scopes and stuf --
so explain that -- how did they know about something like this 1400 years ago without any equipment?? surely there is a god (Allah SWT) and he sent down his revelations to prophet mohammed pbuh over a period of 23 years -- ok!! biggrin
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 3:56 am
tassan divineseraph Prove to me that he cares, without using the Qu'ran. Face it- Your guidelines are arbitrary manmade assumptions about a being with infinite nature. i care about you and do not tell you that i do, Now prove to me if i care about you or not? ...i am waiting...
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 4:47 am
divineseraph Again, do you really think that God, the creator o the Cosmos, the Infinite and Singular, made you so that you would wear a man-made cloth over your face? You really think God cares about that bullshit?  heart Comment me an i'll comment u back ^ _^
Excuse me He does care...n u believe wat u want but ur questions would be answered on the Judgement day !!!! heart
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:39 am
tassan tassan divineseraph Prove to me that he cares, without using the Qu'ran. Face it- Your guidelines are arbitrary manmade assumptions about a being with infinite nature. i care about you and do not tell you that i do, Now prove to me if i care about you or not? ...i am waiting... I don't see what this has to do with anything. Did you twist your use of logic to support Islam, or did your twisted logic lead you to it?
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