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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:45 pm
CodyDudeTm I'm a Luther, and I'm reposting because... I'm trying to figure out the bible, like the contradictions and such. It's pretty tough, lol. But... I'm one of those stubborn people who just believe because it feels right. It's a stupid reason... but whatever ^w^. But I'm a cool christian, because I don't shove my faith down people's throats :3 I'm pretty certain many of the contradictions stem from culture, history, and the fact that it was written over many many years by many different people. If it was just one person who dedicated their entire life to writing the book, then it would probably flow better and not have these problems. Plus, it depends on whether or not someone takes things as literal or not. The whole worldwide flood thing doesn't mesh up with reality at all. Maybe a small local flood that took out a city like a Katrina style disaster wouldn't be so far out of the question, but it seems very few people are willing to think of it in that context. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that the writers (like so many people of the time) stretched the truth? Virtually every week we read from translated medieval sources in one of my classes, and about every time there was at least someone making exaggerations in their accounts. (Instead of maybe 100 men, these people took on 10 million! ...it's explained though! They were savages of the new world and didn't have early guns that took forever to reload.) Annnnd, there's an even more interesting problem. A lot of things from the early parts of the Bible have quite a lot in common with other beliefs around in the area that were there long before. Is it just a coincidence that there's male God, just like all the other religions there? If Christianity (and Judaism as well) started in the early North Western parts of Europe, they may have ended up with a female God instead. Granted, there is no real gender to the Christian God, but it is more often than not referred to as a He. There's other things too, as I seem to recall similar flood stories in the area. Heck, there's some from Africa too, so maybe that's where it originated from? Though they have it as a flood in the beginning. In addition, if you look at history and how male gods replaced female gods and patriarchal societies came about, it isn't much of a stretch to wonder if altering certain stories such as the creation story in an attempt to place this God further back in time (making it older and more powerful than the current god(s). This is all just speculation here, but it seems to be more than just a coincidence and I think there was an exchange of religious ideas back then just as there would be currency and scientific knowledge today. Oh, and there's also other problems like how it has oral roots before they were firmly written down. Then you have issues with consistency over these things, since you have problems with translation even back then amongst other issues. Then as you move along the timeline, you have major events like the split between the Roman Empire which later helped lead to the schism between the East and the West Church, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, the adjustments to an industrializing/industrialized world, and some other things I'm probably skipping over until we finally get to the great new post-modern present day. A period where everyone is doing their own thing, and raging against each other as even larger changes occur completely outside their debates. The Catholic church being unable to keep up with this century, much less centuries before. Some altering, twisting, changing meanings to fit whatever personal agenda some people have. Others may be rewriting things. Are they wrong? Who knows. They could be just as right as Joan D'Arc, or as wrong as she was meant to be proven as when burned at the stake for witchcraft by the other side. I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs or Christianity itself, but in this day and age when it's questionable what Christianity actually is, there really isn't any certainty to begin with. Contradictions and history make the bible into something that would read more as a nice little book to go along with the religion, just as those little green leafy things go on the side of a dish you get at a restaurant. Make it up as you go, since you're probably as correct as anyone else these days. Sure, you could spend your whole life trying to find and get at an original system, but unless you have a time machine the original religion as it was first conceived has long been lost to history. So yeah.... I rambled a lot there, but that's both my belief on the matter and general take with Christianity. ...This strangely helped too, since it put to words much of my uncertainty and doubt has been.
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:01 am
I'm a pagan, or i guess the term is neo-pagan, my beleifs and my furry-ness dont cross eachother, my religeous veiws basically follow, The only evil or wrong doing is that in which someone (all living things) is harmed
There are exceptions... like when someone is trying to kill you or something, but i dont expect that to happen to me anytime soon
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:41 pm
Garek Maxwell CodyDudeTm I'm a Luther, and I'm reposting because... I'm trying to figure out the bible, like the contradictions and such. It's pretty tough, lol. But... I'm one of those stubborn people who just believe because it feels right. It's a stupid reason... but whatever ^w^. But I'm a cool christian, because I don't shove my faith down people's throats :3 I'm pretty certain many of the contradictions stem from culture, history, and the fact that it was written over many many years by many different people. If it was just one person who dedicated their entire life to writing the book, then it would probably flow better and not have these problems. Plus, it depends on whether or not someone takes things as literal or not. The whole worldwide flood thing doesn't mesh up with reality at all. Maybe a small local flood that took out a city like a Katrina style disaster wouldn't be so far out of the question, but it seems very few people are willing to think of it in that context. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that the writers (like so many people of the time) stretched the truth? Virtually every week we read from translated medieval sources in one of my classes, and about every time there was at least someone making exaggerations in their accounts. (Instead of maybe 100 men, these people took on 10 million! ...it's explained though! They were savages of the new world and didn't have early guns that took forever to reload.) Annnnd, there's an even more interesting problem. A lot of things from the early parts of the Bible have quite a lot in common with other beliefs around in the area that were there long before. Is it just a coincidence that there's male God, just like all the other religions there? If Christianity (and Judaism as well) started in the early North Western parts of Europe, they may have ended up with a female God instead. Granted, there is no real gender to the Christian God, but it is more often than not referred to as a He. There's other things too, as I seem to recall similar flood stories in the area. Heck, there's some from Africa too, so maybe that's where it originated from? Though they have it as a flood in the beginning. In addition, if you look at history and how male gods replaced female gods and patriarchal societies came about, it isn't much of a stretch to wonder if altering certain stories such as the creation story in an attempt to place this God further back in time (making it older and more powerful than the current god(s). This is all just speculation here, but it seems to be more than just a coincidence and I think there was an exchange of religious ideas back then just as there would be currency and scientific knowledge today. Oh, and there's also other problems like how it has oral roots before they were firmly written down. Then you have issues with consistency over these things, since you have problems with translation even back then amongst other issues. Then as you move along the timeline, you have major events like the split between the Roman Empire which later helped lead to the schism between the East and the West Church, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, the adjustments to an industrializing/industrialized world, and some other things I'm probably skipping over until we finally get to the great new post-modern present day. A period where everyone is doing their own thing, and raging against each other as even larger changes occur completely outside their debates. The Catholic church being unable to keep up with this century, much less centuries before. Some altering, twisting, changing meanings to fit whatever personal agenda some people have. Others may be rewriting things. Are they wrong? Who knows. They could be just as right as Joan D'Arc, or as wrong as she was meant to be proven as when burned at the stake for witchcraft by the other side. I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs or Christianity itself, but in this day and age when it's questionable what Christianity actually is, there really isn't any certainty to begin with. Contradictions and history make the bible into something that would read more as a nice little book to go along with the religion, just as those little green leafy things go on the side of a dish you get at a restaurant. Make it up as you go, since you're probably as correct as anyone else these days. Sure, you could spend your whole life trying to find and get at an original system, but unless you have a time machine the original religion as it was first conceived has long been lost to history. So yeah.... I rambled a lot there, but that's both my belief on the matter and general take with Christianity. ...This strangely helped too, since it put to words much of my uncertainty and doubt has been. Well, my mind has been ******** still believe in Christianity, though. Something about those exaggerations, isn't one of the early scientific beliefs that the world was just water, until a great deal of volcanic activity formed the uber-continent? And that's all the rebuttal I could think of at the moment...
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:50 pm
CodyDudeTm Well, my mind has been ******** still believe in Christianity, though. Something about those exaggerations, isn't one of the early scientific beliefs that the world was just water, until a great deal of volcanic activity formed the uber-continent? And that's all the rebuttal I could think of at the moment... That's fine, so do I. xd I can't attest to a global flood at that time, but it doesn't mesh up at all with the creation story. For one, life had to exist along with humans at the time of the great flood which was far too early for any complex life forms, much less humans, to exist. Two, from what I have read the period of oxygen abundance came after the flooding, so very little life could exist in the first place, if it existed at all. So the creation story doesn't work at all. Plus, there are other creation stories for other religions that don't involve great floods. They involve frozen landscapes or other things that actually do fall more in line with earth history, even if it is probably just a coincidence. More credibility isn't usually given to them, even if they do line up more correctly. This is why I believe a Hurricane Katrina style flood was more likely. Given that the early housing structures could have been made of dirt and stone, it's likely they crumbled under the flooding and wave forces acting upon them, making it seem more dramatic than it actually was. Just as when people build wood houses in tornado prone areas and have them wiped off the map every year or so, they too made it worse for themselves. Probably didn't help that there were no scientists to study and help predict things like future flood risk and such for the time. I take the story of Noah to be like the Katrina of the time because of poor planning and a disaster that could have been less of one had people either been properly informed or smarter about their housing choices. They couldn't do much at the time of course. But it is a warning that people even today should head. Don't buy the cheap wooden house in Tornado Alley of all places. It amazes me how many people willingly choose to live in that sort of situation. Frankly, I don't like loosing everything I own every year or so. Slight rant there, but it always bothers me when people willingly choose to live in disaster prone areas... You can't always be prepared, and sometimes you're limited in options, but when you have a choice there isn't any excuse when you know there's a disaster virtually every year.
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:25 pm
Garek Maxwell CodyDudeTm Well, my mind has been ******** still believe in Christianity, though. Something about those exaggerations, isn't one of the early scientific beliefs that the world was just water, until a great deal of volcanic activity formed the uber-continent? And that's all the rebuttal I could think of at the moment... That's fine, so do I. xd I can't attest to a global flood at that time, but it doesn't mesh up at all with the creation story. For one, life had to exist along with humans at the time of the great flood which was far too early for any complex life forms, much less humans, to exist. Two, from what I have read the period of oxygen abundance came after the flooding, so very little life could exist in the first place, if it existed at all. So the creation story doesn't work at all. Plus, there are other creation stories for other religions that don't involve great floods. They involve frozen landscapes or other things that actually do fall more in line with earth history, even if it is probably just a coincidence. More credibility isn't usually given to them, even if they do line up more correctly. This is why I believe a Hurricane Katrina style flood was more likely. Given that the early housing structures could have been made of dirt and stone, it's likely they crumbled under the flooding and wave forces acting upon them, making it seem more dramatic than it actually was. Just as when people build wood houses in tornado prone areas and have them wiped off the map every year or so, they too made it worse for themselves. Probably didn't help that there were no scientists to study and help predict things like future flood risk and such for the time. I take the story of Noah to be like the Katrina of the time because of poor planning and a disaster that could have been less of one had people either been properly informed or smarter about their housing choices. They couldn't do much at the time of course. But it is a warning that people even today should head. Don't buy the cheap wooden house in Tornado Alley of all places. It amazes me how many people willingly choose to live in that sort of situation. Frankly, I don't like loosing everything I own every year or so. Slight rant there, but it always bothers me when people willingly choose to live in disaster prone areas... You can't always be prepared, and sometimes you're limited in options, but when you have a choice there isn't any excuse when you know there's a disaster virtually every year. Heheheh, I know. I live in Wisconsin, and about every 2 weeks if it's raining, there's a tornado. I can't wait to gtfo, 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:27 pm
Ariun_of_the_frost I'm a pagan, or i guess the term is neo-pagan, my beleifs and my furry-ness dont cross eachother, my religeous veiws basically follow, The only evil or wrong doing is that in which someone (all living things) is harmed There are exceptions... like when someone is trying to kill you or something, but i dont expect that to happen to me anytime soon Ritual sacrifice? ? 3?
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:10 pm
Rainey_angel81 I do not participate in organized religion...whether that be a cult, christianity or catholicism. I would, however, tie myself closely with those who practice wiccan or druidry. I cannot say that I am spiritual--sure there are many things in the world that can be labelled as spiritual. But as for believing in god or jesus..no. I do not
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Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:15 pm
: ) i follow Unitarian universalism, and i follow Shambhala: Path of the Warrior
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:45 am
I personally don't understand organized religion at all. too many contradictions, so I just took bits and pieces from everything and used that, whatever feels right.
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:10 am
People are just gonna see us as another group that threatens their sanctity of religion but it is what we do. so why stop
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:57 am
Jack Van Impe just made my religious beliefs die a little more. Him and his scary a** wife.
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