Wicca, not the same as Witchcraft?

[WitchyBoy]

i always heard witchcraft as being the art of using the energies ofnature and the celestial bodies to create change.  

[too2sweet]

Dragoness Arleeana

WitchyBoy

i just meant did you hear it or read it like that somewhere i just never saw it put to words like that

That's what I'm saying. That's not something that's reallg going to HAVE a source. How have you never heard witchcraft described as using outside forces to aid in magic and sorcery? That's just what it is, plain and simple, it's not an interpretation of it in any way. It's the most simple way to state it. It'd be like asking someone for their source if they said "Wicca is a nature based religion that practices witchcraft." How are you supposed to give a source to that?

I think that what he was trying to ask is if that was your "personal" definition (based on your experiences) or if you had gotten that specific definition from a book/website...as he stated later it was a little different than his own definition and he wanted to know a bit more about it. I don't think he was trying to dispute what you were saying.

You can give a source for almost anything...if someone asks me what color the sky is and I tell them blue, and then they ask me to state my source...I will tell them that my source is me. I personally have been outside and seen that it is blue.

Blessed Be,

B  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

WitchyBoy

i always heard witchcraft as being the art of using the energies ofnature and the celestial bodies to create change.

No, that's where WICCANS draw their magic from. Satanists use witchcraft and they sure as HELL don't get it from nature or celestial bodies. Vodou used witchcraft, but their magic comes from the spirits.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

too2sweet

Dragoness Arleeana

WitchyBoy

i just meant did you hear it or read it like that somewhere i just never saw it put to words like that

That's what I'm saying. That's not something that's reallg going to HAVE a source. How have you never heard witchcraft described as using outside forces to aid in magic and sorcery? That's just what it is, plain and simple, it's not an interpretation of it in any way. It's the most simple way to state it. It'd be like asking someone for their source if they said "Wicca is a nature based religion that practices witchcraft." How are you supposed to give a source to that?

I think that what he was trying to ask is if that was your "personal" definition (based on your experiences) or if you had gotten that specific definition from a book/website...as he stated later it was a little different than his own definition and he wanted to know a bit more about it. I don't think he was trying to dispute what you were saying.

You can give a source for almost anything...if someone asks me what color the sky is and I tell them blue, and then they ask me to state my source...I will tell them that my source is me. I personally have been outside and seen that it is blue.

Blessed Be,

B

Yeah, I realized why he'd asked for one when he stated what he'd heard witchcraft to be.

I'm sorry to say witchy, but that definition is completely and TOTALLY wrong, as I explained in my other post.  

[WitchyBoy]

but then theres how you define witchcraft? like in the examples you gave earlier would that be the use of jou jou or satanic influence or magicks or anything else like that?  

[LadySorcha]

Dragoness Arleeana

LadySorcha

Dragoness Arleeana

WitchyBoy

unicornangel33

Wicca is a religion based on natural beliefs and healing by totally natural means. Witchcraft is when you call upon otherwordly elements to aid in magic and scorcery etc...

ive never heard that one whats your source on that?

Source? That's what it is! Using otherworldly sources as a magical means to get something done, that's EXACTLY what it is. Why ask her for a source?

Nice way of putting it by the way unicorn, i never thought to say it like that.

Asking for a source is a way of saying "Is this your opinion or is this a fact?" Magic is not fact. It cannot be, simply because it is supernatural and therefore can be interpreted by each individual a different way. However, in discussing theology, one may ask what religious source is the root of your knowledge, ie, a teacher or your own experience. Remember, it is our duty as children of the Craft to not only question our beliefs, but find foundations for them. And yes, this means asking for sources.

We're not talking about magic itself though, that's a completely different subect, in which, yes, you WOULD want sources stated. But that's NOT what we're talking about. We're talking about the MEANING of the word, not the the source of the power of that which the word represents. That's why no source is really needed. Witchcraft IS the use of "magical" elements to make something happen, while Wicca is a religion. We're not talking about the source actually being magical, or mundane or anything like that, we just have it stated as magical so as to better word it to make it easier to understand. We're not actually talking about the source of magic.

Forgive my absence.

You misunderstand me. I am not debating the validity of your statement, nor am I attempting to argue the "source of magic". Rather I am pointing out that when discussing any knowledge that is meant to be objective, a source (that is, where you got the information) is helpful. How do you know that witchcraft is the use of magical elements to make something happen? Is this from personal experience or from study? Is it something that you surmised on your own or something you heard elsewhere? If it is something that you gleaned on your own, that doesn't make it any less true than if you had gotten it from a book; on the contrary, in fact, because first hand experience is far more valuable than a second hand interpretation. As I mentioned before, it is not only our responsibility as people to question knowledge, but as Wiccans, it is our obligation to question Pagan theology, and once again I must reiterate, that being critical thinkers requires adequate source information.  

[LadySorcha]

WitchyBoy

i always heard witchcraft as being the art of using the energies ofnature and the celestial bodies to create change.

Close, but depending on which camp you're from (as Arleena has expressed repeatedly) how you use witchcraft can dramatically alter how you define it, therefore simply stating that it is the art of using the energies of nature doesn't quite cut it.

Looking at the many different denotations and connotations of witchcraft, it can be defined much as you have defined it here, or it can be deemed the "manipulation and accessing of esoteric energies, often demonic and evil." As per the definition from a Christian source. And yes, Christians, Catholics in particular, believe in witchcraft much as we do. They just put a radically different spin on things and call it "demonic."

Anyhoo, suffice it to say that witchcraft is manipulating energy to your will. But, to accept this VERY broad-stroke definition, you must first remove the negative connotation of "manipulation" from your mind; to manipulate doesn't always mean something bad, it can simply mean "to mold"; if you don't believe me, look it up. To every group that uses witchcraft in some sense or another, this manipulation is a common thread. The way, the means, the intent, and the tools, however, vary greatly.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

Yes, but you're speaking in personal and religious terms that vary from perosn to person. We're just talking about the definition. The source would be the dictionary.

witch·craft [wich-kraft, -krahft] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the art or practices of a witch; sorcery; magic.
2. magical influence; witchery



mag·ic [maj-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
2. the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.

We're strictly speaking of the definition, not what it means to each person or anybody in general.


Witchcraft is not the use of energies of nature (though it is one form of it, but not it completely) nor do celestial bodies have to (they can) do anything with it. It is the use of supernatural forces to have something magically done.

You can't just say it's nature energies, because satanists and voudou practicioners do not use nature energies in THEIR witchcraft.

THIS is why Wicca and witchcraft are NOT the same thing and CANNOT be used interchangeably. To say that Wicca and Witchcraft are the same thing would being saying that we really ARE satanist, or the voudou practicioners are Wiccans. We arn't and they arn't, therefor they are not the same. Yes, we all PRACTICE witchcraft, but our religion ISN'T witchcraft, it merely uses a form of it.  

[WitchyBoy]

to each his own i suppose  

[LadySorcha]

WitchyBoy

to each his own i suppose

Agreed. Arguments based on semantics are entirely circular and sometimes can simply not be resolved.  

[WitchyBoy]

LadySorcha

WitchyBoy

to each his own i suppose

Agreed. Arguments based on semantics are entirely circular and sometimes can simply not be resolved.

agreed lets just say that what ever works for you simply works.  

[Rain1084]

WitchyBoy

LadySorcha

WitchyBoy

to each his own i suppose

Agreed. Arguments based on semantics are entirely circular and sometimes can simply not be resolved.

agreed lets just say that what ever works for you simply works.

That is totally true. The guy who asked the question makes you wonder who told him  

[WitchyBoy]

i wouldnt say that but i think its kind of a strange topic i mean after all isnt magick all experiential so you have to experience it to understand?  

[LadySorcha]

WitchyBoy

i wouldnt say that but i think its kind of a strange topic i mean after all isnt magick all experiential so you have to experience it to understand?

Not necessarily. If one were to study magic and the people who practice it with out being engaged themselves, as in a sociological perspective, then experience with the subject of the study would actually be a detriment, not an advantage.

I get what you're saying, though: as students of the Craft, we need to be receptive to our own experiences as well as the experiences of others, because that's how we learn.  

[WitchyBoy]

lets just agree to disagree that we each have our own definition of what magick is and how we define it.