Equal opposite's (lucifer, arch angel michael, God, Goldfish

[Bellabie]

Dammie-kins

Hmmm the heirarchy of church is no doubt correct bella but I do not totally agree with everything you said unfortuanatly...

Come again? You present your opinion, then say "but" to contradict, but instead carry on... Is there some misspelling or did I skip something?
As I've mentioned previously, I am agnostic, therefore, I do not really agree with the current rule-makers on the topic of religion. I would side with you to say that God has not killed all of those people, but would agree with TehBoxman to say that the "word of God" has. Also, dear Dammie-kins, tread carefully. This sub-forum was established to provide a haven for those who wish to defend their ideas in an intelligent manner. You seem to be making various remarks of your opinions, but give no view of the other side or any facts to support.

Quote:

The after-life is real but the after-life is something that unless some pulls a "jesus" and revives themself will never be fully under-stood. Now this is an assumption but the afterlife is like a big hotel in my point of view. Each story being a different time period and the rooms being people or people's souls in general. -Dumb theory but it leads to more idea's-

How can you prove that the afterlife is real? You cannot. It is a theory. Just as is nearly everything.
Although I recognize the many beliefs of afterlife, I dislike them, because they are often used to justify cruelty.

Also, dear friend, your spellings of "ciao" are becoming more and more atrocious. Hee hee!
heart
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[Dameon the -V-]

heh im reading ernest hemmingway so thats how he spelled it...

Umm well I guess your correct its just that im presenting my opinions which no-one may agree but a debate is about present opinions and ill tread however I want to razz Life is about discovery and I tend to discover it one way or another + I made that very early in the morning so I apologize for bad spelling errors

P.S. Ciao is actually spelled Ciaou by most italians I am a relative of one razz

Distant of course I believe it is my third cousins family? I wanna say but probably wrong

Oh well im out!

Ciao
(there I'll leave it like that -Meanie emo -  

[Bellabie]

Ciao Entomology as presented by Wikipedia.org
I'm a second generation American of Italian heritage.
Anyhow, I've not found the complete text, but there seems to be something...

Quote:

changed to "mariscos" on page 418 of the paperback issue); "ciao" as in "'Ciaou!' he said, 'What kind of time did you have? ...

-- MUSE

Debate is about presenting two or more issues and settling either on compromise or by convincing the other side.
Quite frankly, I'm not convinced. You didn't even include biblical texts as reference.
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[scintillio]

Quote:

I am unfortuanantly going to have to say your idea is very pesimistic. To be full opposites of god I could make a evil bunny right now *tries to make bunny and succeeds* HOLY F#*&...heh...sorry! Well not really we would only need to have the ability to destroy matter and we can to an exstent. The "problem" isnt choice, the "problem" is thinking! If none of us had the intentions to figure out what this means then we would of stayed blissfully un-aware and happy so the problem is once again the human psyche

i believe that thinking and choice are relatively the same. Whats the difference between thinking about doing something to doing it? Nothing, save time really....but dwelling leads to action, or no action at all.

To me, these things are tied together. So i still see my point as being valid, because even though this makes sense, it still leads to choice; The inital desision to DO something.  

[Bellabie]

So, everything in the universe should sum up to zero, right?
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[scintillio]

Bellabie

So, everything in the universe should sum up to zero, right?
b

Hm, well yes, it should. Kinda like infinity + infinity = infinity. 3nodding  

[Lady Rayya]

gold fish's opposites are elephants:

short v. long memories
small v. big size
gold v. darker greys
piscene v. mammalian  

[Captain Mikell Raine]

God lives in an alternate universe, we can never reach him until death. But Lucifer was actually better than Michael until he attacked God. Once that happened he lost his power because it came from God. God is pure good and opposite of Satan but..... Satan does not have the power God has. He can only do what God allows.  

[Blind Hodd]

Theology is, not at all, a precise science. If you're tring to arrive at an absolute answer, you won't find one. That is, unless you're a christian(like me) and go look in the Bible. Even then there are grey areas and mistellings.... The best you can do is follow you're faith to the best of your ability and hope to your diety that you happen to have chosen the right faith.  

[Temperance-chan]

Oh HO! I never expected to find this here!

The easy way to end this debate would be to make a blanket statement similar to this: Faith is a personal matter and relative to each person, so everything is "right" and "correct" in the eyes of the individual. Therefore, let all worship how they would worship and accept that they may not match yours.

However... where's the fun in that? ^_^

I'm afraid I wasn't able to keep up with where all the trains of thought present here, but I will comment on those I did catch. Keep in mind, while I was raised Catholic, my current ideas come from years of studying the spirituality and religions of other cultures.

The first question being the question of God's "opposite". This really depends on what or who you believe God to be. For my own set of ideas, "God" is the Creator, the one who kick-started the Big Bang and all that. By that rationale, the creator's opposite would be the Destroyer. I will point out right here that this is NOT Satan or Lucifer or any other man-labeled entity. Just as my perception of "Heaven" is a place of ultimate and unforgiving truth, thus "Hell" is non-existence, an absence of anything we would consider reality. Thus the Destroyer would be the entity that negates the matter and reality created by the Creator, so this also discludes the species of Man from this negative role.

((Aside: I do like Boxman's statements about God creating Hell, however. and thus having no opposite. It's an interesting point.))

On that note, though, I do not believe in a benevolent Creator who guides all, nor does the Destroyer lead men into temptation. They are outside of the matters of men and thus should not even be considered on the small scale. After all, that's what angels and demons and avatars and all that jazz are for, right?

Which brings me to the next issue: Lucifer and his "rank". First off, let me state: Lucifer is NOT Satan. "Satan" is simply a Hebrew word for "adversary", so while he does fall under that catagory, many beings in the Old Testament were labeled as such. It wasn't until the New Testament that we see people focusing on Lucifer as the one who's been at it all along.

As for him being the opposite of Michael, this is also something to be debated. Someone pointed out that Lucifer, before his Fall, was of higher standing than Michael which is true. In fact, putting him on the same level as the four (or seven, depending on the list you go by) Archangels is actually dropping him down a notch. It would be more accurate to say that he was equal in standing to Sandalphon (leader of the Heavenly Choir) or Metatron (the Voice of God),but even that doesn't quite work, especially since scholars theorize than both of those angels were in fact humans (the Prophets Elijah and Enoch) who were exalted by God to a standing higher than the angels.

So, to conclude, Lucifer does not really have an opposite, even though he leads those angels who have Fallen and is the adversary of all who have not. However, he is lower on the totem poll than the Creator, too low to be considering the creator's opposite or opponent, if by nothing else than the fact that he was susceptible to Pride, the sin that caused him to fall.

...Yes, I have done a lot of study on angels.... >.>  

[Captain Mikell Raine]

Woooo, GO CHRISTIANS! And do end a common misconception, Catholics are christian too just a different style. Temperance-chan is mostly right, though Lucifer IS Satan to those who are christian, Lucifer, being the enemy of Christians, qualifies him as such.  

[Blind Hodd]

who says catholics arn't christians?

anyway before i derail this topic any more i'll say this. there is absolutely no way this can be debated without everyone looking ignorant. it'd actually be a good thing for this to wind down before much more theology is brought into the mix...i trust most of you but religion can bring the fanatic out of the most logical and careful man. i'll not stop this i just don't condone it.  

[Temperance-chan]

Captain> I never said Catholics weren't Christian. The reason I specified my Catholic upbringing was so that you would be given a base against which to compare my beliefs, where I got them or rebelled against them. If I had just said "Christian" you would only have been given a very general image, where as stating that I was Catholic let's you know that I once held to a particular set of doctrines and beliefs in the Christian faith. It's like someone else stating that they're Baptist or Unitarian or something. We all follow the same, basic text, but the way we follow that text and other teachings differs greatly from branch to branch.

Also, on the note of Lucifer, no, I'm not wrong. Yes, in the eyes of those who believe full-heartedly in the New Testament as fact and truth, Lucifer is the only true Satan. Just be aware that, before the accounts of the New Testament, he was not specifically stated as the one holding that position, thus not everyone who categorizes themselves as Christian hold to that belief. smile

fubar0

who says catholics arn't christians?

anyway before i derail this topic any more i'll say this. there is absolutely no way this can be debated without everyone looking ignorant. it'd actually be a good thing for this to wind down before much more theology is brought into the mix...i trust most of you but religion can bring the fanatic out of the most logical and careful man. i'll not stop this i just don't condone it.

I can see your point, there will always be the possibility that each person knows more about an certain aspect of the topic that others do not, or even just THINKS they know because of what they're been taught or read. People who did not learn their information from the same source and/or have a different set of beliefs will look ignorant to those who don't share them.  

[Captain Mikell Raine]

I think you misunderstood me. I was mearly stateing it for those who think that they are seperate beliefs. I myself only beleive what i myself decern from the Bible. I don't belong to any denomination. I also agree on the fact that theology is a controversial subject and I am usually a understanding man, its just that those are my beleifs and I'll defend them. Maybe we should discontinue this thread?  

[Lady Rayya]

we NEVER discontinue a thread simply for getting off topic. Get back on, and take the more specific religious discussion to the 101 thread.

This thread is inherantly going to have religious overtones, so get used to it. Opposites themselves are not a religious topic, but te subtopic in the header mentions an archangel and other things of that kind, lending the discussion a slightly religious overtone.

The specifics about Catholocism belong in the 101 thread, but the overall theme is good. continue and debate!