Witch. Do YOU find that word offensive?

[WitchyBoy]

Angel Bruja

darkdagers

Diana_Moon

I don't find it offensive at all...I'm proud of being a Witch.

I feel the same way I love being a witch biggrin

Same with me.

woots for witchy folks!  

[Death Sworn]

i dont find it offensive at all, as to me they're sort the same thing, but some ppl do mind, i guess.
it does anoy me how alot of ppl mistake the wiccan sign for the satanic sign (inverted pentagram) tho  

[WitchyBoy]

that is true but i love being able to say yes i am a witch, the sense of mystique and confidence in the world, i love it!  

[too2sweet]

I consider myself Wiccan (eclectic if you must label it), but I am also a witch. I definately believe there is a difference between the two, but many sources name them as the same thing. I am also one of those people who is big on "intent" and it's not because I don't think that the rituals are important, because they are - but I feel that people in general are so reliant on "props" and "tools", that they tend to forget that the real "magic" comes from within. While rituals make everything that much more powerful, it is always what is in your heart that counts the most. Having said that, I love full rituals...I just don't get the opportunity to do them very often.  

[WitchyBoy]

i classify myself as a witch who follows the wiccan faith.  

[Ijivirus]

Dragoness Arleeana

Yes, I totally agree with you, on every point, even about Gardner. (sometimes I wonder if he wasn't smoking something on the side)

Really, it's impossible to be Wiccan without practicing witchcraft, as that is what makes up the whole of the religion. Of course initiation is a completely symbolic ritual, but it's still a ritual none-the-less. Most Sabbat rituals are symbolic, but it's still considered witchcraft.

It's kind of a frusterating topic to discuss because most Wiccans do believe that the ritual itself is not what's important, but the intent. But does that mean that we need not perform ritual at all? Some believe that Christian-style praying is enough. Everyone is always going to have a different view on whether or not ritual is actually NEEDED. Thus, we can never REALLY say that all wiccans are witches. (though we can say that all TRUE Wiccans are witches)

On another point. I think the OP's friend may not neccisarily be OFFENDED by being called a witch, but more like she's wary of it. The term witch has always had a bad reputation, but the word Wiccan is fairly new and untarnished. I've come acrossed people who freak when you tell them you're a witch but then later you say that you are a Wiccan, and they seem far more willing to listen. I think being wary of the term is understandabe because of this but actually being offended is just stupid.

According to Aleister Crowley magick is the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will and later goes on to say every intentional (willed) act is a Magical act. So I would have to say that I think the ritual is PURELY symbolic and doesn't matter except to "stick with tradition" so to speak. I do the rituals because it helps me visualize the flow of prana, but I don't think they're necessary.

I don't think you can claim that there is such a thing as a TRUE Wiccan, when according to you they MUST be initiated. For me to find a coven I would have to move a city over to get initiated, and I have neither the time nor the money to do so, so I never bothered. I've been practicing Wicca for almost 2 years now (which I am aware is not nearly as long as most people here) and according to you I am lying to people when I claim to be Wiccan because I was not initiated. I think I am as much Wiccan as anyone else in this guild, and who is Gardener to say that I'm not. His "rules" weren't set in stone by the gods and goddesses themselves and I'm sure there were Wiccans before him that did not adhere to all of his rules. How did the first Wiccans come about if such an initiation is required?  

[WitchyBoy]

i still like the word witch...  

[Aiume234]

People ask what religion I am and I respond Wiccan. When the confused I just simply say a witch. They usually get pretty frightened of me by then, but I like it. ^^  

[i-- M a r i e --i]

Aiume234

People ask what religion I am and I respond Wiccan. When the confused I just simply say a witch. They usually get pretty frightened of me by then, but I like it. ^^

Well, you aren't actually supposed to get them frightend sweatdrop You wouldn't want to give them the wrong idea of your religion.It would be a bit like exploiting the word 'witch'. But you probably do explain them your religion after you said 'witch' , so please don't take this message as an offense sweatdrop  

[duvessamordichi]

i dont find it offensive. now what i find offensive is when ignorant people sit there and ask if your a satanist just because you wear a pentagram.  

[WitchyBoy]

admittadly ive used the witch stereotype once or twice with those who annoy me about my beliefs but usually i explain the whole thing.  

[mechanical kitsy]

Nahrzak

It's a death wish... some people have a hyper sensitivity... subliminal or conscious... inate or active... and a witch is a Dark and sinister typography of magic... A wiccan is a Mage... and a Witch is a Novice or Apprentice of a bad sorceress... Witches cannot ever acquire the experience or ability that might include nobility... and Wiccan is a very noble (elfen) post script to Man's work in magic... Mage is a Healer or a Death Dealer... Witch is a lack of experience and or a moral or ethical Caring.

that sounds more like a video game description, sorry.  

[mechanical kitsy]

should i be offended? i dont get why she is, unless she makes an effort to stay away from Witchcraft, or else she's a fluff and doesn't quite know her stuff...  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

O_o - IXI - o_O

Dragoness Arleeana

Yes, I totally agree with you, on every point, even about Gardner. (sometimes I wonder if he wasn't smoking something on the side)

Really, it's impossible to be Wiccan without practicing witchcraft, as that is what makes up the whole of the religion. Of course initiation is a completely symbolic ritual, but it's still a ritual none-the-less. Most Sabbat rituals are symbolic, but it's still considered witchcraft.

It's kind of a frusterating topic to discuss because most Wiccans do believe that the ritual itself is not what's important, but the intent. But does that mean that we need not perform ritual at all? Some believe that Christian-style praying is enough. Everyone is always going to have a different view on whether or not ritual is actually NEEDED. Thus, we can never REALLY say that all wiccans are witches. (though we can say that all TRUE Wiccans are witches)

On another point. I think the OP's friend may not neccisarily be OFFENDED by being called a witch, but more like she's wary of it. The term witch has always had a bad reputation, but the word Wiccan is fairly new and untarnished. I've come acrossed people who freak when you tell them you're a witch but then later you say that you are a Wiccan, and they seem far more willing to listen. I think being wary of the term is understandabe because of this but actually being offended is just stupid.

According to Aleister Crowley magick is the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will and later goes on to say every intentional (willed) act is a Magical act. So I would have to say that I think the ritual is PURELY symbolic and doesn't matter except to "stick with tradition" so to speak. I do the rituals because it helps me visualize the flow of prana, but I don't think they're necessary.

I don't think you can claim that there is such a thing as a TRUE Wiccan, when according to you they MUST be initiated. For me to find a coven I would have to move a city over to get initiated, and I have neither the time nor the money to do so, so I never bothered. I've been practicing Wicca for almost 2 years now (which I am aware is not nearly as long as most people here) and according to you I am lying to people when I claim to be Wiccan because I was not initiated. I think I am as much Wiccan as anyone else in this guild, and who is Gardener to say that I'm not. His "rules" weren't set in stone by the gods and goddesses themselves and I'm sure there were Wiccans before him that did not adhere to all of his rules. How did the first Wiccans come about if such an initiation is required?

I don't really appreciate something that happened in a different thread (that you were not involved in) being brought up in a different thread to be used against me. I made this post quite a long while ago, long before my little "incident".

Since you brought it up though...why can't i use the term "true wiccan"? If I believe that you can only be Wiccan when initiated I would obviously claim that there is only one way to be wiccan and thus only one way to be a "true wiccan". I can claim whatever I well damned feel like claiming too, like you say, who are YOU to tell me I can't? You might not agree with me but at least I'm not a hypocrite.

What, you mean you might actually have to put some EFFORT into working things out to be able to practice your religion? ONE town over? Sorry, but you can't drive or find someone to drive you? I moved SIX HOURS away (far more than one town) this past summer after I graduated. There arn't even any legit covens around here, but theres pagans to talk and practice with. I almost moved across the country, but I decided against going to school there. Moving a town over is too much work? I don't want to hear it.

You're not lying exactly, since you believe it, but you ARE wrong and mislead and misconcieving it. You are lying to yourself, because if you're not going to follow a religion correctly then why claim you are part of it? If people are to naive to know the truth then it's their own fault, but you're the one who is going to suffer by trying to conform to a title and roll that doesn't suit you.

There were NO Wiccans before Gardner, you might want to do a little bit more history research on the religion you claim to be practicing before you start making such bold statements. Gardner was taught by a Hedge Witch named Dorothy Clutterbucket, who later initiated him into HER tradition. He then formed and created the Wiccan religion. the first witches may ot have required initiations, and thus more could be brought into the spiritual path and its practices, but when Wicca was created Gardner said it was MANDATORY. Religion is a man made thing, the gods don't create it, MAN does. Man has faith, he create religion to conform people to certain rules, regulations and practices. Like you say, the gods have never said you need to follow any of these rules. THUS, religion is man made and THERFOR you follow the rules of the MAN who created it. Who is GARDNER to say you're not part of HIS religion because your not following the rules that HE, the CREATOR OF WICCA, set down!? Well....HE CREATED THE RELIGION! I think his rules mean quite a LOT!

Also, Aleister Crowley was not Wiccan. He was an occult practitioner and studied it deeply. His theories were for general occultism, not for Wiccan in any of its specifics.  

[Kitanya_Rose]

I have to agree with Leeana on Crowley.

First, everything I've found does not suggest Crowley was a Wiccan. It says he was a 33 degree Mason (not wiccan), a member of the Golden Dawn(magical yes, Occultist yes, Wiccan no), an Occultist, and even the 'father of modern Satanism'.. but I've yet to see anything that says he was a wiccan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/Freemasonry/aliester_crowley_33_degree_Mason_knew_about_human_sacrifice.htm
http://www.magickalmind.com/icons.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn
http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/index.shtml


The closest thing I can find is the page that says "He was also a one-time witch, though most of the elders of the craft would discredit him the title. (http://www.controverscial.com/Aleister Crowley.htm)" and that again brings up the whole witch/wiccan/pagan debacle. If you haven't seen it (because Phoenix asked for it to be removed) there was a thread once that talked about how "witch" "wiccan" and "pagan" are not exactly interchangeable terms. There is actually a difference in Witch and Wiccan (Hence the pharse "All wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans".)

The phrase itself shows that by using the terms interchangeably, you are creating a confusion as to what is a "Witch" and what is a "Wiccan".

Personally, I dislike labels, simply because you have no true definition of the terms, even among those who claim to belong to one group or another. If you cannot properly define the terms, then the confusion is allowed to grow and continue, until no one knows for sure where one group ends and another beings.

And before someone says something like "Witch is defined as (insert here) and Wiccan is defined as (insert here), take the time to actually RESEARCH the terms online, and in those expensive books you have. Look at all the different ways people define them. Look at how utterly confusing it is, even though everyone asserts Witch=this, Wiccan=that... the "this" and "that" are rarely the same! (But feel free to post links to your source material, because I can post links that counter your sources, doesn't matter what side of the argument they take.)

Which is where I say, what makes one person's definition correct, and another's incorrect? I can say a Witch is someone with red hair and blue eyes, and a Wiccan is someone with blonde hair and green eyes, and if you don't have either of those, you're neither of those.... Sure, you wouldn't believe me, because I'm a "nobody". But what if Gardner had said "A Wiccan is someone who was born with a mole on their left thigh, and two colored eyes. Even if you follow the faith, without these, you are not a Wiccan." Well, I suppose we'd have a different group of wiccans out there... sporting plastic surgery moles and contacts. razz But the fact is, when people who are supposed to know what Wicca and Witchcraft is all give you different definitions... It gets to be one giant mess.

I can't remember who said it, for it was a while back, but someone said something along the lines of "Oh, if initiation is all that's needed, what's to stop someone from saying something like 'I was initiated by Aspen MoonWind, of the Coven of Two moons, who was initiated by Lady SilverWing, of the Coven of Two moons, who was initiated by Wild Wolf Redbeard, of the Coven of Circling Suns, who was initiated by Holly Cloverfield, of the Coven of Whispering Meadows, who was initiated by Stag Riverbottom, of the Coven of Whispering Meadows, who was initiated by Butterfly Moon, of the Coven of Standing Forests, who was initiated by FierceWindInShiningDark, of the Coven of Maiden Eclipse, who was initiated by Molly Two-Deers-Running, of the Coven of Ancient Ways, who was initiated by RedFeather, who actually studied under Gardner."

Can you prove it to be untrue? And how many people would bother to check, and how many would just go "Oh, with a lineage like that you're really one of us, welcome to the club" ???

I'd love for someone to actually check that lineage and prove to me it's fake. PROVE IT. Can you honestly find a list of EVERYONE who studied under Gardner, and prove there's not one man on it who didn't, as some point in his life, go by the name of RedFeather, and that he didn't at some point in his life, initiate a woman who at some point in her life went by the name Molly Two-Deers-Running, and belonged to a Coven of Ancient Ways? Gardner was HOW LONG AGO? You think there are membership lists, and that everyone remembers every coven that ever existed, even if it was only around for a short time? Do you honestly think that you can find records to prove that the lineage is false?

So, since you can't... I'm obviously a -true wiccan- and I want my membership card to this elitist club. now, please.



But to answer the original question of the thread, is the term-Witch- offensive, I have this to say. Any term can be offensive, if that is the meaning behind the person using it. "Queer" can be used as a cut-down by homophobic people. It's also a term that's been reclaimed by the Gay community. (As in "We're here, we're Queer, get used to it!") There's a certain N-Word, which I will refrain from using. Now, as I understand it, it's offensive for non-black people to use the word, but black people can use it without offense.

So is the term Witch offensive? If you wish it to be, yes. If the person using it wishes it to be, yes. Just because I don't find it offensive, or you don't find it offense, doesn't mean there aren't those out there who will find it offensive.

Perhaps it would be better for you to talk to your friend and find out why the term is offensive to HER, rather than asking others if it is offensive to them, since it is her issue with the term, not ours.