Vegetarianism, Veganism, Etc.

[20 Shades of Crazy]

Grip of Death

I know. wink

But I do not find with a lot of what you've said there convincing or true.. it's one thing for you to personally believe that though. I'm not too much in the mood to sour up the thread and debate, though. From my perspective, omnivores try very hard (through some ridiculous arguments) to excuse and justify their current patterns.

Wait, your for people having control of their bodies, therefore pro-choice, but for telling them what they can put in it?

Just saying, isn't it a bit hypocritical that you're pro-choice, and against people eating meat, even though that's their body to control what goes in it?  

[Miraculous Jorbee]

20 Shades of Crazy

Grip of Death

I know. wink

But I do not find with a lot of what you've said there convincing or true.. it's one thing for you to personally believe that though. I'm not too much in the mood to sour up the thread and debate, though. From my perspective, omnivores try very hard (through some ridiculous arguments) to excuse and justify their current patterns.

Wait, your for people having control of their bodies, therefore pro-choice, but for telling them what they can put in it?

Just saying, isn't it a bit hypocritical that you're pro-choice, and against people eating meat, even though that's their body to control what goes in it?

 

[Kata Samoes]

Grip of Death

I know. wink

But I do not find with a lot of what you've said there convincing or true.. it's one thing for you to personally believe that though. I'm not too much in the mood to sour up the thread and debate, though. From my perspective, omnivores try very hard (through some ridiculous arguments) to excuse and justify their current patterns.

And that's bad how? It offends you? Seriously, I don't get that.

Being omnivorous is a natural diet for people, considering our body IS built to be able to digest and process both plants and meat, not just one or the other. From what I read, you're against it regardless, yet you're pro-choice for any other bodily issue: whether it involves invasion or other choices concerning the body. Yet, you're against eatting meat?

I don't get that, seems kind of contradictory and hypocritical like 20 Shades said.  

[Grip of Death]

Oh my.. stressed I just thought I tried explaining earlier how being a vegan is *not* being a "hypocrite" for pro-choice.

Maybe I didn't do a good enough of a job concerning that.

Anyway, I can't forcibly stop people from doing what they are going to do- including stop eating/wearing animals. I highly disagree with animal consumption of all kinds, still, and if they CHOOSE to listen to me sincerely, then they may find that avoiding animal consumption actually makes a lot of sense. (and if a person *doesn't* want to listen, it's not like I can force them to either...) >.<

But at the same token, I support people having control over their bodies. BUT- thoughtful consideration of the planet and other species on it is important especially in a time marked by human overpopulation and dwindling natural resources. So, while I am not going to force a couple *not* to have two or more kids, I still highly, vehemently disagree with it. If we did absolutely whatever the hell we wanted to all the time with no thought about how our actions influence other things, we'd destroy ourselves eventually, like a world-wide Easter Island. It already looks like we're getting there.

Another vegan friend of mine over IM had some relevant things to say on the matter of pro-choice and veganism:

Quote:

Thing is, you know, being pro-choice and nonvegan is hypocrisy.

...Because you're not granting bodily autonomy to the animals.

Actually, no, scratch that - you're taking it AWAY.

Point out that she's (20 shades of crazy and company, are) telling ANIMALS what they can do with THEIR bodies - non-interference is often the best policy, which means VEGANISM as a baseline.

My friend points out that human beings are not the only ones that get to have their own bodily autonomy. Affording animals bodily autonomy does not mean that they trump human bodily autonomy.

be right back, I need to post later...  

[20 Shades of Crazy]

I only eat meat when my family makes me, so that really doesn't apply to me, especially since I plan on being lacto-vegetarian as soon as I can provide my own food for it.
Its not hypocritical in any way to be vegan and pro-choice, its when you tell people that they're wrong for eating meat that it is. Its just like when pro-life people tell us that abortion is murder, and we are denying the rights to fetuses. If you take the road that all living things have their own bodily autonomy, then why do you think that fetuses do not?

Also - are you going to end up being like those crazy people on Futurama who made the lion go vegan (xD Futurama, how I miss thee), since they eat meat and are, by your logic, are denying rights to other animals because they do not participate in "non-interference"? Humans are animals, by nature, and animals eat other animals. Vegans, like yourself, I assume would be very concerned about nature, and therefore accept the consumption of animals.  

[Kata Samoes]

Being pro-choice and NON-vegan is hypocritical? How so, by hunting animals and eatting them for food?

I'm sorry, but I'd like to insert that your logic is demeaning natural instincts and actions. Humans are animals. Humans are also omnivores. Humans eat meat.

You're a hypocrite, and so is your friend, by telling others they shouldn't eat meat because there are animals hunted or raised and then killed for the sole purpose of EATTING them. How does that violate their body again? And why is that relevant to human politics?  

[Grip of Death]

I see that both of you were interested in attacking me first, all along. Good job, assholes.

I didn't even have the chance to confront Kata with his post earlier! I told the both of you that I needed to post later!

Anyway, humans are not ideally omnivores, we were ideally fruigivores (fruit-nut-seed-bark-pith-leafy green-veggie-eaters), or "herbivores", close to chimpanzees.

That is, if one chooses to eat meat, it is an "opportunistic" omnivore, as opposed to nature. This is why chimpanzees at the same drop of a hat might be able to find meat, or find termites/bugs and eat them. Even deer, natural herbivores, might occasionally come across some dead animal and eat that. But as far as their daily diet goes? Not even close. Their bodies, and human bodies, are not naturally equipped to kill animals. Unless, you really think we can run at super speeds, lunge at animals with our teeth, and rip them apart with our nails. An herbivore who regularly eats animal products is going to get really sick eventually. (hmmm.. sounds like a lot of Americans these days, huh?)

The shape of our teeth look closer to an herbivore animal than it does to a true carnivore animal. They are blunt- the so-called "canine" teeth are ideal for ripping apart fruit, not animal flesh (yeah, why the hell do people even need to use forks and knives to cut up their steak anyway?). Also, our colons are much longer (whereas a carnivore's colon is short). The mechanism of our jaw is conducive to crushing plant food best. There's a lot of other clues that we were frugivores pointing out to our body, but I will stop here for now.

There's theories out there that claim that humans, infact, were prey animals, not predators. Which makes since, because we could only learn how to kill animals after we developed tools- which is an adaptation, but this doesn't mean that this is ideal.

People would like to think that humans evolved in their brain size because they ate meat, but there's plenty of other reasons that could point to something else. There's been theories that humans evolved to eat more complex grains for the dense source of carbohydrates (that would fuel the brain), there's been theories that humans were evolved to eat tubers/roots when less than ideal food sources were available, there were theories such as the man-as-prey one where man had to outwit his predator to survive (which would exercise the brain). Etc. Actually, the idea that humans evolved in their brain size because of eating meat doesn't make sense at all, because eating meat means that there is saturated fat and cholesterol, two unnecessary nutrients that our body can manufacture on its own, and it actually clogs up arteries- and that among the most vulnerable areas for blockages is the brain and the genitals.

The conclusion I get from all this is that the scientists don't really know what went down millions/billions of years ago in order for people to say *definitely* what really happened.

btw, Kata, you presented a strawman over the hunting issue, because modern day hunters hunt for sport, not even food. And, that the prey animal population in these nationally-protected environments are deliberately bred to be overpopulated so that the hunters can kill them for sport.

Gary Francione in his books talk about the ethics of eating animals, infact, if you choose to be informed enough to criticize that.

Even the native americans who had a BETTER reason than modern-day americans to hunt and eat animals for food for survival- STILL killed animals like porcupines for their DECORATION. Even if modern-day American hunters killed animals for food, it would not be necessary because we are living in abundance of plant sources of food today. Also, they are gambling when they eat hunted animals who may have parasites, diseases or other things that is up in the air. A carnivore/ true omnivore can handle eating and digesting rotting flesh and parasites, so why can't humans?

I can see that both of you have not bothered to read the Vegan FAQ that was in my first post in this thread, because if you have, you would find that quite a few of your pitiful little arguments would have been addressed. You can read more on the Native American issue and the hunting issue from that FAQ, even. You choose, instead, not to be educated. If you want to REALLY argue against veganism, at least do a little research beforehand because you're both looking really ignorant to me right now.

If you're going to try to "de-convert" me to veganism for any reason at all, you might as well quit trying because it's not going to happen. If you're also trying to make me accept that "omnivore" humans is just as legitimate an eating pattern as vegans personally, I also will not accept that. I know too much about these things to listen to an uninformed opinion on these matters. So I'm not quite sure what you two are trying to accomplish, except maybe baiting.

Remember, all three of you have been THE FIRST to call ME a hypocrite.  

[Grip of Death]

I just had to post about a "privileged" lifestyle.

It's annoying when non-vegans whine about how veganism is such an expensive, privileged lifestyle that only rich white yuppies who can blow their entire paycheck on "whole foods" and health stores can do.

Most of the world follows a mostly plant-based diet. Most of the world isn't as rich as the U.S, as you know. So, if veganism was so expensive, I guess mexicans would have such a hard time being able to afford bean burritos or cornbread, for example.

Infact, many developing countries are starving as we speak because they can't access rice and other staples. WHY?

Is it because of greedy vegans like me gobbling up all of their rice, and making tons of rainforest getting chopped away so that they can grow soy for my soy milk?

No.

- Actually, the rainforest is being chopped down to raise GMO soy and other GMO foods to feed ANIMALS that feed humans. It's a very inefficient system... Because animals need a lot more food to raise than humans. The animals aren't even ideally meant to eat grains as opposed to grasses. We would be able to feed more people around the world IF privileged westerners did not have such an increasing, voracious appetite for meat and dairy.

- Need I say again that eating meat is privileged, when only the industrialized countries have the most access to meat? That a regular consumption of meat is not a sustainable model for the world?

- vegan soy products are usually "organic", not GMO. (not that vegans require soy to be healthy, ya know).

- How much sense does this make: we grow food for cows on our lawns. Then, we feed cows HUMAN food (grains). THEN, we kill the cows and eat that. Why not bypass all the middlemen and grow HUMAN food on our lawns instead?

- the cattle in the U.S. soak up at least HALF of the entire U.S. clean water supply. With increasing demand for clean water, and droughts (remember, my area was hit with a nasty drought last year), isn't this rather selfish and inefficient a use of resources?

Eating meat is so resource intensive, that it's no wonder that a LOT of the world's exported food goes to the U.S. and other top meat-eating nations.

There's also problems unrelated to the meat-eating issue.

- Industrialized countries like the U.S. put local farmers in poor countries out of business by dumping their extra grains/staples in the market.

- Irrigation systems don't exist in places that need them, but are not very expensive to install.  

[20 Shades of Crazy]

Dude(tte), chill out, would ya? I wasn't trying to attack you simply point out a flaw in your logic, is all. (: No need to call me an a*****e and blow up as you did. O___o;;

I think its awesome that you're vegan, and I wish I could be one day, but with other health issues I have, I'd end up being hospitalized, or close to it. So I have to settle for vegetarian. Its great you stand up for something you believe in.

Though, you do contradict yourself (and I didn't mean to call you a hypocrite, but your opinion hypocritical).

By telling people that they should be able to do what they want with their body is your opinion by being pro-choice, correct? This is wonderful, the very baseline for freedom. BUT, then you go on to say that we should not be able to control our bodies by trying to control what we eat. So that's you saying "Control your body all you want, now let me control what you put in your body." This is a flaw in your logic; doesn't mean you're a hypocrite, because this happens to all of us. This is all I was trying to say. :3

Before you go off on the animal's rights, let me ask you: what about the rights of a fetus as a potential human? Does abortion not fail to provide them rights?

...I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you have to think: the fetus in later stages has many similarities to many, many animals and bugs, which you are completely against the killing of. So why is it okay, in your mind, to kill a fetus?  

[MipsyKitten]

Grip, if anyone's being an a*****e here, it's you. You CONSTANTLY belittle people who eat meat, or don't adhere to your view of what vegetarianism/veganism is. The fact that you say people who eat meat use 'ridiculous arguments to excuse and justify their current patterns' shows that you think people who eat meat are beneath you. You say that you wouldn't stop someone from eating meat, or wearing fur, but you sure like to put people down for doing so. Kinda like how the 'Pro-Choice buts' say they wouldn't stop a woman for aborting, but they'll sure as hell call her a dirty whore for doing it.

No one's trying to 'de-convert' you. That's your damn problem. You think everyone's out to get you if they even try to have any kind of discussion. I'm sure no one here gives a flying ******** about what you eat. People kill animals for reasons other than food. That's the way it is, and the way it always has been. It's part of people's culture, their religion, their way of life, and yes, sometimes for sport. You have every right to give your opinion, or to even help someone who might want more information, or to convert to veganism, but you have no right to tell other people they're wrong, or get this 'higher than thou' attitude when someone has a different view.  

[Asexual-Slut~Enya]

I tried the whole vegan thing for a short while (like a week, maybe) before I grew tired of it -- I missed milk, cheese, ice cream, butter, eggs, and a slew of other delectable goodies.

I then tried being a vegetarian. That endeavor lasted longer; however, ultimately, I missed eating meat.

I gave them a shot; but, ultimately, both diets require far too much sacrifice -- I'm not yet prepared to starve myself to death. wink  

[Peppermint Schnapps]

I was a vegetarian for about a year but I gave up because there's too much food with meat in it that I enjoy. I don't recall gaining or losing any weight when I didn't eat meat (and I didn't eat fish, either xD). I didn't adopt the vegetarian diet because of any of the in-depth issues you guys have been discussing, it just seemed like an interesting change of pace and I wanted to see what it was like. It wasn't bad, but I just love food too much to stick to a specific diet.  

[20 Shades of Crazy]

It seems Grip has run away. Does this mean we win that little debate?