How does everyone view Shia in terms of being A Muslim?

[Thou Exalted]

Yes I know it has well known Sh'ia sources, but it still confuses me on which that source says Shi'ism started during Umar's Caliph period, and another states it was at the Funeral of the Prophet (SAW) which is what I believe.

I'd have to find the terms for what he appointed him to and what authority it was he had.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

I think I asked earlier, but where are the Imams mentioned in the Qur'an? It seems like a pretty important concept to have in there, but I never remember hearing any mention of it anywhere in the Qur'an.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

I think I asked earlier, but where are the Imams mentioned in the Qur'an? It seems like a pretty important concept to have in there, but I never remember hearing any mention of it anywhere in the Qur'an.

I agree that it is, but I am always looking for answers to my questions so I would have to get back on you on the Imam subject.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Okay cool, InshaAllah.  

[Thou Exalted]

I believe I may have found some evidence to my previous claim "No matter what religion your in as long as you believe in Allah in which ever way and follow the pious path you head to heaven" can be found here.

"And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. And so judge (you O Muhammad) between them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh's Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh)." [The Noble Qur’ân, Chapter Al-Mâ’idah (no.5), Verse 48-49]

Now if I am not mistaken, I believe this clearly states that Jews and Christians of old can enter Heaven as well as they remain Pious and act as Muslims do, even if they do not "convert".  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

That is all true. However, that is only the Jews and Christians of old, just like you said. In other words, (true) Christianity was only valid until the coming of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]. Judaism was only valid until the coming of Isa [alayhi salam].

So once Islam came roughly 1500 years ago, all other religions became obsolete and unacceptable by Allah. Why do I say this? Allah says...

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Qur'an 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Qur'an 3:85)

Also, I do not understand what this had to do with the Shi'a debate. Clearly, no path other than Islam is acceptable by Allah, and there are things about Shi'ism that contradict this path. I'm not saying you follow those deviations, because you have expressed that you reject a lot of that stuff, Alhamdulillah.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

That is all true. However, that is only the Jews and Christians of old, just like you said. In other words, (true) Christianity was only valid until the coming of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]. Judaism was only valid until the coming of Isa [alayhi salam].

So once Islam came roughly 1500 years ago, all other religions became obsolete and unacceptable by Allah. Why do I say this? Allah says...

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Qur'an 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Qur'an 3:85)

Also, I do not understand what this had to do with the Shi'a debate. Clearly, no path other than Islam is acceptable by Allah, and there are things about Shi'ism that contradict this path. I'm not saying you follow those deviations, because you have expressed that you reject a lot of that stuff, Alhamdulillah.

Yes it is true Islam is the only Religion accepted by Allah (SWT), I was just stating all the Jews, Christians, or any people of small minority who saw the pious path and died as a Muslim "secretly" go to Heaven.

As I said before I'll get back to that debate once I can find more information.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

[ Absolut Terror ]

That is all true. However, that is only the Jews and Christians of old, just like you said. In other words, (true) Christianity was only valid until the coming of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]. Judaism was only valid until the coming of Isa [alayhi salam].

So once Islam came roughly 1500 years ago, all other religions became obsolete and unacceptable by Allah. Why do I say this? Allah says...

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Qur'an 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Qur'an 3:85)

Also, I do not understand what this had to do with the Shi'a debate. Clearly, no path other than Islam is acceptable by Allah, and there are things about Shi'ism that contradict this path. I'm not saying you follow those deviations, because you have expressed that you reject a lot of that stuff, Alhamdulillah.

Yes it is true Islam is the only Religion accepted by Allah (SWT), I was just stating all the Jews, Christians, or any people of small minority who saw the pious path and died as a Muslim "secretly" go to Heaven.

As I said before I'll get back to that debate once I can find more information.

Oh, of course. But they're just Muslims, not Christians or Jews. I agree with you there.  

[Geek Zombie]

Haydar the Truthful

Yes it is true Islam is the only Religion accepted by Allah (SWT), I was just stating all the Jews, Christians, or any people of small minority who saw the pious path and died as a Muslim "secretly" go to Heaven.

first i don't remember any Ayats to prove me but, every body have to pay for their sins, when anybody does more sin and less good deeds then first he will go to hell for a "PERIOD" of time and then he will go to HEAVEN even if it is you!! in the end you will go to paradise too, but after you have pad for you sins by suffering hell..


this is what happens with them..!!

those who do sins actually go to heaven but before that they have suffered hell!!  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

tassan

Haydar the Truthful

Yes it is true Islam is the only Religion accepted by Allah (SWT), I was just stating all the Jews, Christians, or any people of small minority who saw the pious path and died as a Muslim "secretly" go to Heaven.

first i don't remember any Ayats to prove me but, every body have to pay for their sins, when anybody does more sin and less good deeds then first he will go to hell for a "PERIOD" of time and then he will go to HEAVEN even if it is you!! in the end you will go to paradise too, but after you have pad for you sins by suffering hell..


this is what happens with them..!!

those who do sins actually go to heaven but before that they have suffered hell!!

Not all the time. Allah can always forgive. Especially if the person is a believer.  

[Zaakii]

They are wrong muslims, but they are muslims wink  

[Thou Exalted]

Zaaki

They are wrong muslims, but they are muslims wink

Claim what you will, but I believe Pious "shia" who go by the Qur'an and Sunnah and see it in a slightly different view doesn't make them all that wrong.

It's as if there was lets say a Sinful Sunni who believed in Allah and everything but didn't pray or fast or do any good things, Compared to a Shia who refrains from such things and does all that Allah asks for.

Tell me, who would be better in your eyes?  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

Claim what you will, but I believe Pious "shia" who go by the Qur'an and Sunnah and see it in a slightly different view doesn't make them all that wrong.

It's as if there was lets say a Sinful Sunni who believed in Allah and everything but didn't pray or fast or do any good things, Compared to a Shia who refrains from such things and does all that Allah asks for.

Tell me, who would be better in your eyes?

Well first of all, Sh'ias reject numerous authentic ahadith and have their own. The religion has invented this concept of "imamate" which is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. There are many things in Sh'ism that go against the Qur'an and sunnah. The religion emphasizes hatred against many Sahaba, including the best of them, Abu Bakr.

Let's look at your question.

The "Sinful Sunni" - He is Sunni. His Aqeedah is that of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Therefore, the foundation for his Iman is well-built, assuming he is a practicing Sunni and not someone who is unaware of the Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah. Because of this foundation, he is able to have stronger faith.

The "pious Sh'ia" - If he is a Sh'ia in the true sense of the word, he probably believes in imams who have powers either matching or surpassing the Prophets [the top Sh'ia scholars do hold this view]. His Aqeedah has many aspects that go against Islam, even though he is righteous in action. His foundation for Iman is weak, and therefore no good can come out of it - a house can only be as strong as the foundation it is built upon.

The Sunni, though a sinner, has hope because he is on the straight path in his belief; his action needs to be fixed. The Sh'ia has to uproot the beliefs in his heart and replace them with Islamic ones, which is a much harder task.

Also, do you not see righteous and pious Christians and Jews? What do you think their fate will be? Same as the Muslims? Even the Quraish had many good people, such as Abu Talib, who went as far as assisting Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]; his help was very crucial for Islam's early years. However, since his Aqeedah was incorrect, Allah will still punish him, as far as we know [He may have mercy if He wills].

I'm not saying one is better than the other, because only Allah knows what is in their hearts.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

Claim what you will, but I believe Pious "shia" who go by the Qur'an and Sunnah and see it in a slightly different view doesn't make them all that wrong.

It's as if there was lets say a Sinful Sunni who believed in Allah and everything but didn't pray or fast or do any good things, Compared to a Shia who refrains from such things and does all that Allah asks for.

Tell me, who would be better in your eyes?

Well first of all, Sh'ias reject numerous authentic ahadith and have their own. The religion has invented this concept of "imamate" which is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. There are many things in Sh'ism that go against the Qur'an and sunnah. The religion emphasizes hatred against many Sahaba, including the best of them, Abu Bakr.

Let's look at your question.

The "Sinful Sunni" - He is Sunni. His Aqeedah is that of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Therefore, the foundation for his Iman is well-built, assuming he is a practicing Sunni and not someone who is unaware of the Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah. Because of this foundation, he is able to have stronger faith.

The "pious Sh'ia" - If he is a Sh'ia in the true sense of the word, he probably believes in imams who have powers either matching or surpassing the Prophets [the top Sh'ia scholars do hold this view]. His Aqeedah has many aspects that go against Islam, even though he is righteous in action. His foundation for Iman is weak, and therefore no good can come out of it - a house can only be as strong as the foundation it is built upon.

The Sunni, though a sinner, has hope because he is on the straight path in his belief; his action needs to be fixed. The Sh'ia has to uproot the beliefs in his heart and replace them with Islamic ones, which is a much harder task.

Also, do you not see righteous and pious Christians and Jews? What do you think their fate will be? Same as the Muslims? Even the Quraish had many good people, such as Abu Talib, who went as far as assisting Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]; his help was very crucial for Islam's early years. However, since his Aqeedah was incorrect, Allah will still punish him, as far as we know [He may have mercy if He wills].

I'm not saying one is better than the other, because only Allah knows what is in their hearts.

To respond, The idea that Shia's do not go against Sahaba through hatred, for if they did, then they are surely being ignorant. Shia's only believe that Ali was usurped of his position, Shia's still give respect and treat The Prophet's (SAW) Companions Highly. From what I see I was never taught this way and I've been a Shia all my life. I do have a resource as to say on whether Shia are muslims or not, which can be found here. The concept of all this "Made up" holy books after the Qur'an is fake rumors as well, as I was taught to say "La Illah Illallah Wa Muhammadun Rasul Allah" and yes, there is one added part which is "Ali is the Friend of Allah whom is the successor of The Prophet (SAW)" Etc. My quote isn't what it EXACTLY says maybe afew words but nothing that much of a big deal.
I have found something that the Prophet (SAW) has said of the Imams and which I always have a fuzzy memory of but I found it.

"“The prophet of Allah (S.a.w.) said: “I am the master of the prophets, who will come after me are twelve, the first
one of whom is Ali and the last one is al-Mahdi, who will revolt against injustice."

Again, if this does not satisfy you, (Which I'm pretty sure it won't) I'll continue searching.

I also would like to add that, how would you know if Shia Muslims are on the wrong path when from what I've seen, you've gone only on the Sunni Perspective? Have you bothered going on A Shia Site to see if this claim was true?  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Yes. I have seen things about the Shi'a aqeedah which are taken from Sh'ia authentic books such as Al-Kafi and the like.

I asked for proof of Imamah from the Qur'an. Here's why:
There are 5 main things in the Aqeedah of Shi'as. They are,
1. Tawheed (Oneness of God)
2. Nabuwwah (Prophethood)
3. Ma’ad (Day of Judgement)
4. Adl (Justice of God)
5. Imamah (the above stated doctrine)

Every single fundamental of Islam is mentioned in the Quran numerous times. Tawheed and the concept of Allah (عز و جل) are mentioned over two thousand times. The concept of Messengers and Prophets [Risalah and Nabuwwah] is mentioned repeatedly; in fact, the words “Rasool” and “Nabi” are used over four hundred times. All of the other Usool-e-Deen (fundamental of religion), other than Imamah, are mentioned hundreds of times in the Quran. Yet, the Quran remains completely silent on the issue of Imamah.

The concept is something so core to the Sh'ia religion [in fact, it is the one thing that causes Shias to be different from Sunnis], but unlike all the other fundamentals, it's nowhere to be found! Not unless you take verses and twist their meaning around.

==========================================

Also, what is your opinion of the Sahaba? When the Grand Ayatola Muhammad Shahroudi was asked:
"My Habibi, my question is regarding the cursing that is found in the Dua’s of the Ziyarat of Ashura, and I talk in particular about the cursing of: the First (Abu Bakr), the Second (Umar), the Third (Uthman). Is it part of the Ziyarat and has it been reported by the Infallible (a.s)? Or has it been rejected? And did the Imams from Ahl al-Bayt allow the cursing of these three and did they say the person who does it is rewarded?"

He answered:
Yes, cursing is permissible in the Ziyarat of Ashura. Repeat it hundreds of times. It has been reported that the Imams cursed and this was not just the cursing of the oppressors of Ashura, but repeatedly (others as well). And this is found in a lot of similar Hadiths. And yes, the cursing must not be done in a matter to reveal the Taqiyyah.

From looking at the Grand Ayatola's opinion, I can say that Shi'ism does involve the cursing of the Sahaba. Just because you haven't heard of certain things doesn't mean they're not part of the religion.