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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:26 pm
Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat BeXlieXve Maha the Wizard BeXlieXve I always wondered how Cain and Abel had kids... I just assumed Adam and Eve had more children, females, and that it was all inbreeding from there on out. They both married women from other lands. Okay, but... Where did these women come from? Did God/Allah create them too? How come they didn't get a story about their creation? Did God/Allah just have writer's block when the Bible/Qu'ran was written?
Erm, Catholics don't believe that God actually wrote the bible...we believe that the writers were inspired by by God.
I always thought that since half the time the bible isn't really detailed, that the writers just forgot to mention that other people existed in the world and such.
but then again, it's just a moral guideline tale for me, not to be taken literally word for word.I really don't know whether the Qu'ran is believed to be written by God or it's inspired by God sweatdrop there's a huge difference, y'know.... Well... The Prophet (SAW) got messages from God and spoke them to the public of whom would write it all down, And apparently it's never been modified and what not so it's just as it was when it was stated 1400 years ago or somewhere around there. I think it would be somewhat inspired, not completely sure though. I mean for all I know it probably was written by God but the scholars and note takers wrote it all down apparently. Yeah, it's something like that. My teacher told us many hadiths. I remember her telling us that Jibrail Alaysalam came to Prophet (SAW) and revealed passages from the Quran to him and that Rasullallah (SAW) was the Quran walking. So since no one back then could read or write, they followed his example. They believed everything he said because he NEVER told a lie in his entire life and there was something in his face that made them believe him. I can't remember what else she said at the moment because this was a few weeks ago but i think this is pretty accurate.
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:39 pm
Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat BeXlieXve Maha the Wizard BeXlieXve I always wondered how Cain and Abel had kids... I just assumed Adam and Eve had more children, females, and that it was all inbreeding from there on out. They both married women from other lands. Okay, but... Where did these women come from? Did God/Allah create them too? How come they didn't get a story about their creation? Did God/Allah just have writer's block when the Bible/Qu'ran was written?
Erm, Catholics don't believe that God actually wrote the bible...we believe that the writers were inspired by by God.
I always thought that since half the time the bible isn't really detailed, that the writers just forgot to mention that other people existed in the world and such.
but then again, it's just a moral guideline tale for me, not to be taken literally word for word.I really don't know whether the Qu'ran is believed to be written by God or it's inspired by God sweatdrop there's a huge difference, y'know.... Well... The Prophet (SAW) got messages from God and spoke them to the public of whom would write it all down, And apparently it's never been modified and what not so it's just as it was when it was stated 1400 years ago or somewhere around there. I think it would be somewhat inspired, not completely sure though. I mean for all I know it probably was written by God but the scholars and note takers wrote it all down apparently.
i find it rather hard to believe that it had never ever been modified. Especially when collecting oral stories from all over the place and comparing them.
But other than that, it sounds still like it is divinely inspired.
...infused with tribal and pre-Islamic beliefs such as the concept of jin and what not. Islam is like Christianity in some ways...pagan beliefs were modified to fit the monotheistic belief system and gained more followers as a result. Heck, even the term "Allah" was used before your Prophet came around.
...kit ugye verekszik részére? EDIT: what i meant to ask is, does Islam uphold the concept of "sola scriptura"? (scripture alone as determinative of faith) when talking about literal translation and whether to define the Qu'ran as divinely inspired or divinely written.
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:05 pm
Ratri_Cat Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat BeXlieXve Maha the Wizard BeXlieXve I always wondered how Cain and Abel had kids... I just assumed Adam and Eve had more children, females, and that it was all inbreeding from there on out. They both married women from other lands. Okay, but... Where did these women come from? Did God/Allah create them too? How come they didn't get a story about their creation? Did God/Allah just have writer's block when the Bible/Qu'ran was written?
Erm, Catholics don't believe that God actually wrote the bible...we believe that the writers were inspired by by God.
I always thought that since half the time the bible isn't really detailed, that the writers just forgot to mention that other people existed in the world and such.
but then again, it's just a moral guideline tale for me, not to be taken literally word for word.I really don't know whether the Qu'ran is believed to be written by God or it's inspired by God sweatdrop there's a huge difference, y'know.... Well... The Prophet (SAW) got messages from God and spoke them to the public of whom would write it all down, And apparently it's never been modified and what not so it's just as it was when it was stated 1400 years ago or somewhere around there. I think it would be somewhat inspired, not completely sure though. I mean for all I know it probably was written by God but the scholars and note takers wrote it all down apparently.
i find it rather hard to believe that it had never ever been modified. Especially when collecting oral stories from all over the place and comparing them.
But other than that, it sounds still like it is divinely inspired.
...infused with tribal and pre-Islamic beliefs such as the concept of jin and what not. Islam is like Christianity in some ways...pagan beliefs were modified to fit the monotheistic belief system and gained more followers as a result. Heck, even the term "Allah" was used before your Prophet came around.
...kit ugye verekszik részére? EDIT: what i meant to ask is, does Islam uphold the concept of "sola scriptura"? (scripture alone as determinative of faith) when talking about literal translation and whether to define the Qu'ran as divinely inspired or divinely written. i dun get the concept of divinely inspired? or divinely written? and for your first word... Allah is the protector of the Quran and He has said that He will protect it himself... so no body can ever modify the holy book? its like going against it? the modern world is created by the God if you are forgetting it?
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:46 pm
tassan i dun get the concept of divinely inspired?
tassan Allah is the protector of the Quran and He has said that He will protect it himself... so no body can ever modify the holy book?
Muhammad is human and so were his first followers. Those that spread his tales and faith were also human.
That's where I'm hinting at.
...that there is a possibility that the Qu'ran could have some mistakes...not from God obviously, but from human tradition as well. But that's my out take on it. Catholics acknowledge that the Bible does have the potential for error, since there is a lot of human work that took this Bible to be gathered and written down, but it is the principle of the Bible, the values of the faith that will transcend any human mistake made in Holy Scripturestassan its like going against it? the modern world is created by the God if you are forgetting it?
The world is created by God, but it isn't perfect due to human interference and sin.
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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:16 am
Ratri_Cat tassan i dun get the concept of divinely inspired? Ok. yes i believe that its divinely written... But Muhammad wrote Allah's words not Allah Himself... Ratri_Cat tassan Allah is the protector of the Quran and He has said that He will protect it himself... so no body can ever modify the holy book?
Muhammad is human and so were his first followers. Those that spread his tales and faith were also human.
That's where I'm hinting at.
...that there is a possibility that the Qu'ran could have some mistakes...not from God obviously, but from human tradition as well. But that's my out take on it. Catholics acknowledge that the Bible does have the potential for error, since there is a lot of human work that took this Bible to be gathered and written down, but it is the principle of the Bible, the values of the faith that will transcend any human mistake made in Holy ScripturesNo body has yet been able to change a word of it, it is same as it was. Ratri_Cat tassan its like going against it? the modern world is created by the God if you are forgetting it?
The world is created by God, but it isn't perfect due to human interference and sin.
thats different thing of it being perfect or not... the world will never be perfect! i am talking about if He(Allah) has created this world then surely what rules He has created to live in it are correct therefore its totally stupid to change it for own needs...
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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:55 pm
tassan No body has yet been able to change a word of it, it is same as it was. tassan thats different thing of it being perfect or not... the world will never be perfect! i am talking about if He(Allah) has created this world then surely what rules He has created to live in it are correct therefore its totally stupid to change it for own needs...
How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course?
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:54 am
Ratri_Cat tassan No body has yet been able to change a word of it, it is same as it was. i am not talking about Muhammad or his followers being perfect! i am talking about God being perfect and what ever happens, happens on His will. ALLAh says : Kun fa-ya kun (i say it and it happens) then surely he is the protector of his own words... Ratri_Cat tassan thats different thing of it being perfect or not... the world will never be perfect! i am talking about if He(Allah) has created this world then surely what rules He has created to live in it are correct therefore its totally stupid to change it for own needs...
How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course?that is just common sense! if you build a building you know where is kitchen rooms and etc... so does God know as what His creation doing? of Course God is all knowing.
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Ratri_Cat Oh really now? I'd like to see proof that something that was orally passed down and transcribed is and always will be perfect. I find that difficult to believe. Especially when the teachings were finally collaborated so much later after Muhammad's death.Nobody is perfect. Nobody. Muhammad may have spread God's Word, but he is not perfect. Neither are his followers. Again, you forget to factor in human fallibility. That's why there were the near companions of the Prophet (SAW), Now sure the Qur'an was made into a book after Muhammad's (SAW) death but would you not admit that it's a much shorter time period than when the Bible was written? There were also some companions that devoted their lives to Islam entirely, And I find it really hard when you have people who were right next to you as you said something, And truly believe in that saying without any doubts. Ratri_Cat You're going by natural law theory. "If it works this way, then God must have created to be that way" How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course? No, No one can read God's mind of course, But by our belief we are obligated to believe every word in the Qur'an, We are also obligated to gain knowledge and know of the lessons of past persons who have lived short lives.
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Oh really now? I'd like to see proof that something that was orally passed down and transcribed is and always will be perfect. I find that difficult to believe. Especially when the teachings were finally collaborated so much later after Muhammad's death.Nobody is perfect. Nobody. Muhammad may have spread God's Word, but he is not perfect. Neither are his followers. Again, you forget to factor in human fallibility. That's why there were the near companions of the Prophet (SAW), Now sure the Qur'an was made into a book after Muhammad's (SAW) death but would you not admit that it's a much shorter time period than when the Bible was written? There were also some companions that devoted their lives to Islam entirely, And I find it really hard when you have people who were right next to you as you said something, And truly believe in that saying without any doubts. Ratri_Cat You're going by natural law theory. "If it works this way, then God must have created to be that way" How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course? No, No one can read God's mind of course, But by our belief we are obligated to believe every word in the Qur'an, We are also obligated to gain knowledge and know of the lessons of past persons who have lived short lives. ÉN verekszik részére Isten , országom és családomAnd you accept what the Qu'ran states without question?
What about the inconsistencies? Do you accept that as the Word of God? The inconsistencies of the Qu'ran? Or will you deny it and continue to say that the Qu'ran is infallible word for word, despite contradictions.
Just because you have someone right next to you recording doesn't mean they'll get each and every word, even devoted to the cause. It's been proven over and over again. There's a chance, like if you're a trained typist in a courtroom, but I doubt Muhammad's followers had that kind of training.
Take for example, students scribbling down notes in a lecture for a class they need to do well in to succeed later in life. They're going to all have different perspectives of the lecture, and some will get most, some will get bits of pieces, much of it in short hand. You still have to interpret that shorthand, and if it is interpreted incorrectly, the student could be lead astray, especially as if he/she was not the original writer of the notes.
...kit ugye verekszik részére?
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:34 pm
Ratri_Cat Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Oh really now? I'd like to see proof that something that was orally passed down and transcribed is and always will be perfect. I find that difficult to believe. Especially when the teachings were finally collaborated so much later after Muhammad's death.Nobody is perfect. Nobody. Muhammad may have spread God's Word, but he is not perfect. Neither are his followers. Again, you forget to factor in human fallibility. That's why there were the near companions of the Prophet (SAW), Now sure the Qur'an was made into a book after Muhammad's (SAW) death but would you not admit that it's a much shorter time period than when the Bible was written? There were also some companions that devoted their lives to Islam entirely, And I find it really hard when you have people who were right next to you as you said something, And truly believe in that saying without any doubts. Ratri_Cat You're going by natural law theory. "If it works this way, then God must have created to be that way" How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course? No, No one can read God's mind of course, But by our belief we are obligated to believe every word in the Qur'an, We are also obligated to gain knowledge and know of the lessons of past persons who have lived short lives. And you accept what the Qu'ran states without question?
What about the inconsistencies? Do you accept that as the Word of God? The inconsistencies of the Qu'ran? Or will you deny it and continue to say that the Qu'ran is infallible word for word, despite contradictions.
Just because you have someone right next to you recording doesn't mean they'll get each and every word, even devoted to the cause. It's been proven over and over again. There's a chance, like if you're a trained typist in a courtroom, but I doubt Muhammad's followers had that kind of training.
Take for example, students scribbling down notes in a lecture for a class they need to do well in to succeed later in life. They're going to all have different perspectives of the lecture, and some will get most, some will get bits of pieces, much of it in short hand. You still have to interpret that shorthand, and if it is interpreted incorrectly, the student could be lead astray, especially as if he/she was not the original writer of the notes.
...kit ugye verekszik részére? Well of course I already know the categories of persons who fail to get the info, Such as one group that hears for example "Alcohol is allowed" then when another one comes back saying "Alcohol is prohibited" they miss that and of course drink on account of that. Then there's the type that goes by their own views and desires, corrupting the message, Another that is too far to hear clearly what is being said and puts down false info, of course and there are persons who are able to hear everything clearly, remember them and never corrupt them by going "The Prophet(SAW) said this, No wait he said this."
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:40 pm
Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Oh really now? I'd like to see proof that something that was orally passed down and transcribed is and always will be perfect. I find that difficult to believe. Especially when the teachings were finally collaborated so much later after Muhammad's death.Nobody is perfect. Nobody. Muhammad may have spread God's Word, but he is not perfect. Neither are his followers. Again, you forget to factor in human fallibility. That's why there were the near companions of the Prophet (SAW), Now sure the Qur'an was made into a book after Muhammad's (SAW) death but would you not admit that it's a much shorter time period than when the Bible was written? There were also some companions that devoted their lives to Islam entirely, And I find it really hard when you have people who were right next to you as you said something, And truly believe in that saying without any doubts. Ratri_Cat You're going by natural law theory. "If it works this way, then God must have created to be that way" How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course? No, No one can read God's mind of course, But by our belief we are obligated to believe every word in the Qur'an, We are also obligated to gain knowledge and know of the lessons of past persons who have lived short lives. And you accept what the Qu'ran states without question?
What about the inconsistencies? Do you accept that as the Word of God? The inconsistencies of the Qu'ran? Or will you deny it and continue to say that the Qu'ran is infallible word for word, despite contradictions.
Just because you have someone right next to you recording doesn't mean they'll get each and every word, even devoted to the cause. It's been proven over and over again. There's a chance, like if you're a trained typist in a courtroom, but I doubt Muhammad's followers had that kind of training.
Take for example, students scribbling down notes in a lecture for a class they need to do well in to succeed later in life. They're going to all have different perspectives of the lecture, and some will get most, some will get bits of pieces, much of it in short hand. You still have to interpret that shorthand, and if it is interpreted incorrectly, the student could be lead astray, especially as if he/she was not the original writer of the notes.
...kit ugye verekszik részére? Well of course I already know the categories of persons who fail to get the info, Such as one group that hears for example "Alcohol is allowed" then when another one comes back saying "Alcohol is prohibited" they miss that and of course drink on account of that. Then there's the type that goes by their own views and desires, corrupting the message, Another that is too far to hear clearly what is being said and puts down false info, of course and there are persons who are able to hear everything clearly, remember them and never corrupt them by going "The Prophet(SAW) said this, No wait he said this."
and every one of the Prophet's close followers just happened to be that perfect. stare
nope, doesn't sound logical. I guess its a matter of Muslim faith.
Even in the Bible, we acknowledge the human fallibility and misinterpretation of God's word with followers.
You still didn't answer my question about the inconsistencies of the Qu'ran.
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:52 pm
Ratri_Cat Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Haydar the Truthful Ratri_Cat Oh really now? I'd like to see proof that something that was orally passed down and transcribed is and always will be perfect. I find that difficult to believe. Especially when the teachings were finally collaborated so much later after Muhammad's death.Nobody is perfect. Nobody. Muhammad may have spread God's Word, but he is not perfect. Neither are his followers. Again, you forget to factor in human fallibility. That's why there were the near companions of the Prophet (SAW), Now sure the Qur'an was made into a book after Muhammad's (SAW) death but would you not admit that it's a much shorter time period than when the Bible was written? There were also some companions that devoted their lives to Islam entirely, And I find it really hard when you have people who were right next to you as you said something, And truly believe in that saying without any doubts. Ratri_Cat You're going by natural law theory. "If it works this way, then God must have created to be that way" How do you know for sure that's how God intended? Can you read God's mind? Can you assume that what you're able to observe and have seen so far in your life and knowledge that human race possesses, that whatever happens in the world occurs exactly how God wants it? That what you don't know is defined at evil an course? No, No one can read God's mind of course, But by our belief we are obligated to believe every word in the Qur'an, We are also obligated to gain knowledge and know of the lessons of past persons who have lived short lives. And you accept what the Qu'ran states without question?
What about the inconsistencies? Do you accept that as the Word of God? The inconsistencies of the Qu'ran? Or will you deny it and continue to say that the Qu'ran is infallible word for word, despite contradictions.
Just because you have someone right next to you recording doesn't mean they'll get each and every word, even devoted to the cause. It's been proven over and over again. There's a chance, like if you're a trained typist in a courtroom, but I doubt Muhammad's followers had that kind of training.
Take for example, students scribbling down notes in a lecture for a class they need to do well in to succeed later in life. They're going to all have different perspectives of the lecture, and some will get most, some will get bits of pieces, much of it in short hand. You still have to interpret that shorthand, and if it is interpreted incorrectly, the student could be lead astray, especially as if he/she was not the original writer of the notes.
...kit ugye verekszik részére? Well of course I already know the categories of persons who fail to get the info, Such as one group that hears for example "Alcohol is allowed" then when another one comes back saying "Alcohol is prohibited" they miss that and of course drink on account of that. Then there's the type that goes by their own views and desires, corrupting the message, Another that is too far to hear clearly what is being said and puts down false info, of course and there are persons who are able to hear everything clearly, remember them and never corrupt them by going "The Prophet(SAW) said this, No wait he said this."
and every one of the Prophet's close followers just happened to be that perfect. stare
nope, doesn't sound logical. I guess its a matter of Muslim faith.
Even in the Bible, we acknowledge the human fallibility and misinterpretation of God's word with followers.
You still didn't answer my question about the inconsistencies of the Qu'ran.
I never said every one of them was perfect, The only one that is believed to be Perfect was the Prophet (SAW) himself. As to inconsistencies wouldn't that attribute to the persons recording the saying as making mistakes? I myself look into other holy books at times and I don't believe that whole deal with "Don't look in any other holy books least you go to that religion" That just shows lack in faith. But as far as I can tell there's no part in the Qur'an that shows any sort of desire for power and what not. I've questioned the Qur'an before, And I usually get a answer that satisfies me, As to your question of taking the Qur'an without looking into it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:09 pm
Zaaki Ratri_Cat BeXlieXve In the U.S., I think it's legal, since there's no blood connection. I haven't got a clue about how that works religiously, though. I don't really get incest. We have Adam and Eve. If that story were true, we would all be incest anyway. (Muslims have a similar story, right? Or is it the same story?)
Erm, I was taught that adam and eve was a fairytale to show one of bajillion examples that God knows what he's doin', and when you disobey him, life starts to really suck.
On topic: if your mother got divorced from your father, and had a daughter from your father [she was pregnant when she divorced], i don't think that would fly too well with Islam...
Ether way, she's still your mom and gave birth to you...i don't think it would be that legal in Islam to do such a thing...
but why would you want to marry your step sister? you'd be well over 10 years older than her if that was the case...that just sounds nasty in my opinion...That would not be nasty... A man is supposed to be 5 years older wit the woman he marry's wink Tough there is many old/rich people in Amarica that are marryed with young models, right? I was just thinking about the RPG... I mean, if Queen Anatis was found to be my mother, and if i could still marry Nour? No you are not allowed to marry your father/mothers children period. They count as siblings as well.
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:50 pm
Haydar the Truthful The thing with Adam and Eve is, I thought it was incest when I thought over the story as well, But in the Qur'an it says that they gave birth to Abel and Cain, and then two beautiful women came from Heaven and reproduced from there in some way, So I suppose it's not that much of Incest. That's a wrong interpretation. Muslims do not interpret the story of Adam and Eve as the Christians/Jews do. If there are Muslims who have the same interpretation it is only because their beliefs have been confused by Christians/Jews. Our beliefs on the story of Adam/Eve: Adam was not the first human nor was Eve. In the Qur'an in Surah Al-Baqarah it is stated that He was sent as a vicegerent on the earth. Meaning he was sent as a Prophet (the first Prophet) to earth. A Prophet is sent to reform people and to guide them back to the right path. If there were no people there would be no reason to make Adam a prophet. Thus the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that there were people before Adam. Also in a hadith it is narrated that a man saw a dream in which there was a man named Adam and the man who was dreaming asked the man are you Adam? The man replied to what Adam are you referring to? This hadith clearly shows that their were many Adam's in history. The Qur'an points out that Adam was a new type of person in the fact that his brain was developed a bit more then the other human brains. Through science we learn of Neanderthals etc. and that they lived in caves like animals and had no "common sense" as to what was good and what was bad for them. Adam was sent as a Prophet to them to teach them this common sense. Also on all other aspects of the story of Adam/Eve and Christian/Jewish interprettion is much different then a Muslim's is. Posted by an Ahmadhi Muslim. heart
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:53 pm
BeXlieXve Maha the Wizard BeXlieXve I always wondered how Cain and Abel had kids... I just assumed Adam and Eve had more children, females, and that it was all inbreeding from there on out. They both married women from other lands. Okay, but... Where did these women come from? Did God/Allah create them too? How come they didn't get a story about their creation? Did God/Allah just have writer's block when the Bible/Qu'ran was written? The interpretation that was given to you was wrong. And regarding one of your questions.......didn't Allah create all of us? yes He did.
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