Information on witchcraft-help?

[Korealia]

Okay, I'm a both a cynic and sarcastic in nature in heart, but I think that what I said was taken out of context and blown out of porportion.

Firstly, I don't look at Wicca and Witchcraft as being synonymous. I may have, however, took the question as being that you were looking to use that particular magical system without diety structure, which can be done, but the structure in and of itself has religious basis. The suggestion for the Aidan Kelly book was NOT a conversion tactic - the idea was to illustrate the 'creation' of Wicca and the fact that it has many elements derived from Masonic, Enocian and Ceremonal Magic, all of which have basis in religion. Even Alchemy has religious influence. I can read, I know you're not looking for WICCAN magic, but before you got affronted and tried get on a high horse, look a little closer and I will try to convey the idea in more detail.

The idea is not that one cannot practice witchcraft without religious influence because religion is inherent in the idea of witchcraft. Regardless of whether or not you choose to accept any religion or use any deities in your practice, it still carries the influence because psychologically, they are connected. The idea of Jung's archetypes. Historically, they're associated - but generally through religious useage. You are ASSUMING that I don't know what you're looking for - you described it well enough. I gave my opinion that because of what you are looking for is rooted religiously that I don't think it's a possiblity, which is a take or leave thing. You choose to be offended. Not my problem. But to correct myself, anything's possible. But is highly improbable. I mean, have you ever run across a book which speaks about the theory of why witchcraft isn't religious? Being Agnostic isn't the same as being an Atheist, and frankly, I'd like to see any literature you can find on Atheist witches and their practices. The term is a contradiction in itself, because if they're practicing witchcraft, they may not USE the idea of deity, but they're still dealing with religious impliments. Personally, I can't see how that makes them non-religious, but that's IMHO.

'Kids' is in plural and an affection. You want to apply it to yourself and take offense, that's your problem again. I imagine that because this is supposed to be a 'kid friendly enviroment', that 'kids' is hardly an offensive term. But you seem to enjoy taking everything as a personal affront, so if you enjoy it, who am I to stop you?

As for religion tying into herbs, you can actually use buckland's big blue for ideas on the herbs. The useage of herbs tie up in religious significance, by the way their named and the way they're harvested (if you're doing 'magical' harvesting'). Yes, they're used medicinally, but when they're used for aromas and burning for influences, it's all religious. Even using moon/planet phases which you use for your spellcasting is religious. Even the days of the week are religious.

They're named after planets. Which are named after gods. Are you getting the idea that I'm trying to convey yet? Regardless if you do not use diety forms in practice, your practice will always hold religious influence because religion is where it started.

I'm not asking you to sell our your beliefs, I'm not trying to convert you. "How presumptuous of you to assume" that I would do such a thing. I'm trying to convey an idea that apparently fails your understanding. You can't see the forest for the trees, and you'd rather make witty or condescending remarks than listen to a moment of reason.  

[AiRune]

I will grant that there is definitely a spirituality in witchcraft, but that doesn't equate to religion. Archetypes, to me, are creations of the human mind to categorize the different energies of the divine.

And as for context, it's a little hard to read between the lines with printed language. Care should always be taken when typing or writing because you don't know what culture someone is coming from.

I can understand your religious point of view. And I know you're not trying to convert anyone. But you still come across as very pushy. Wicca isn't the end all and be all. And not all witchcraft is religious. There's hedgewitchery in England and the cunning men and women of the Appalachia mountains.

Though I'm not the OP, I feel affronted because what you posted came across as demeaning. That our choice in spiritual practice is of little value in comparison to others. And though it's not religious, it's still very personal. So, please, take more consideration of your words.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Korealia

Okay, I'm a both a cynic and sarcastic in nature in heart, but I think that what I said was taken out of context and blown out of porportion.

So perhaps say what you mean? I'm a jerk at heart and I make no apologies.

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Firstly, I don't look at Wicca and Witchcraft as being synonymous.

Then why would you recommend Wicca when what I am looking for is witchcraft?

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I may have, however, took the question as being that you were looking to use that particular magical system without diety structure, which can be done, but the structure in and of itself has religious basis. The suggestion for the Aidan Kelly book was NOT a conversion tactic - the idea was to illustrate the 'creation' of Wicca and the fact that it has many elements derived from Masonic, Enocian and Ceremonal Magic, all of which have basis in religion. Even Alchemy has religious influence. I can read, I know you're not looking for WICCAN magic, but before you got affronted and tried get on a high horse, look a little closer and I will try to convey the idea in more detail.

Sorry, I don't read between lines for people I don't know. What makes you think I don't know anything about how Wicca was created? Again, why would you recommend Wiccan-influenced witchcraft sources when you just explicitly said you knew I was NOT looking for Wiccan-based witchcraft?

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The idea is not that one cannot practice witchcraft without religious influence because religion is inherent in the idea of witchcraft.

Source on this? I know a few agnostic non-theistic witches that would probably disagree with this.

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Regardless of whether or not you choose to accept any religion or use any deities in your practice, it still carries the influence because psychologically, they are connected. The idea of Jung's archetypes. Historically, they're associated - but generally through religious useage. You are ASSUMING that I don't know what you're looking for - you described it well enough.

No, the answers you gave allowed me to logically deduct that you hadn't the faintest idea what I was looking for. Very little assuming was done.

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I gave my opinion that because of what you are looking for is rooted religiously that I don't think it's a possibility, which is a take or leave thing.

Again, where do you get this witchcraft is rooted in religion?

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You choose to be offended. Not my problem. But to correct myself, anything's possible. But is highly improbable.

You want to enter into a discussion on witchcraft/magic and then sling around claims that a form of it is "improbable"? I guess one really is born every minute.

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I mean, have you ever run across a book which speaks about the theory of why witchcraft isn't religious? Being Agnostic isn't the same as being an Atheist, and frankly, I'd like to see any literature you can find on Atheist witches and their practices.

Her Gaia name is Dogtooth Violet. Look her up.

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The term is a contradiction in itself, because if they're practicing witchcraft, they may not USE the idea of deity, but they're still dealing with religious impliments. Personally, I can't see how that makes them non-religious, but that's IMHO.

You keep making these claims that witchcraft is religious and continue to not back them up. Provide some source other than your own word or I'm just going to dismiss these statements as mental masturbation.

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'Kids' is in plural and an affection. You want to apply it to yourself and take offense, that's your problem again.

I don't know you, and by your first impression I don't like you. As far as I'm concerned you really have no grounds to use a term of endearment with me.

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I imagine that because this is supposed to be a 'kid friendly enviroment', that 'kids' is hardly an offensive term. But you seem to enjoy taking everything as a personal affront, so if you enjoy it, who am I to stop you?

Your condescending tone in your post was the affront, not the garbage in it.

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As for religion tying into herbs, you can actually use buckland's big blue for ideas on the herbs.

Oh, right. A cultural rapist. Just who I want to learn witchcraft from rolleyes .

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The useage of herbs tie up in religious significance, by the way their named and the way they're harvested (if you're doing 'magical' harvesting'). Yes, they're used medicinally, but when they're used for aromas and burning for influences, it's all religious.

How is burning herbs for influences innately religious? How are herbs burned to help induce trance religious?

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Even using moon/planet phases which you use for your spellcasting is religious. Even the days of the week are religious.

Proof please? Or is this more "bcuz i says sew!" ?

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They're named after planets. Which are named after gods. Are you getting the idea that I'm trying to convey yet?

That you only have your word to go on and no sources to back it up? Yea I got that idea at the beginning of this post.

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Regardless if you do not use diety forms in practice, your practice will always hold religious influence because religion is where it started.

Proof?

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I'm not asking you to sell our your beliefs, I'm not trying to convert you.

But, telling me to look into Wicca even though you are unaware as to whether or not I already have a belief system is okay? It comes across as "Well, you may or may not believe in something already but I KNOW that you should look into Wicca.

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"How presumptuous of you to assume" that I would do such a thing.

Once again, I didn't have to assume; the implied tone of your post was enough.

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I'm trying to convey an idea that apparently fails your understanding.

What fails my understanding is how and why you keep making claims that witchcraft is innately religious and then failing to back them up even after I've made a request for sources. I would suggest that until you can find sources besides your own mouth you not post here again.

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You can't see the forest for the trees, and you'd rather make witty or condescending remarks than listen to a moment of reason.

What reason? You don't provide reason. You hand me these little quips and statements about how witchcraft is religious in nature and then fail to back it up. What is reasonable about that?

Tashinada: I agree; she did come across as highly condescending and demeaning. I would not suggest that someone convert to Asatru on the sole basis they want to work with runes, so I don't know why it's acceptable to tell someone they need to study Wicca to use non-Wiccan/religious witchcraft.  

[too2sweet]

Outside of Wicca, etc... When I think of a Witch, I tend to think of someone who is attuned to the elements, brews potions, makes charms, does healing work, but hexes when necessary, might do some sort of divination work, and possibly communicates with spirits. I don't see that any of that is religious or even based on religion. It may be spiritual in nature, but even that point is debatable. Most correspondences came around because people took certain herbs, and notated what happened when they were used - a more or less scientific method, but not religious.
Don't know if that is specifically what Vi is thinking of, when she thinks witch, but it's what pops into my mind.

It may be that you might have to study the individual components (crafts), that make up the whole of witchcraft. It could be that because of the whole Wicca thing, there just aren't many books that have been published recently that focus strictly on witchcraft - without adding in the religious aspects.

*goes off to do some Googling*

Some of these are more historical reference, but they may help lead you a better direction...

Cornish Witchcraft
The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic In Europe Volume 3: The Middle Ages
Traditional Witchcraft

College of Witchcraft ... this is here 'cuz everyone needs a good laugh rofl rofl rofl  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

too2sweet

Outside of Wicca, etc... When I think of a Witch, I tend to think of someone who is attuned to the elements, brews potions, makes charms, does healing work, but hexes when necessary, might do some sort of divination work, and possibly communicates with spirits.

-nod- That's sort of what I think of too, except maybe not so much with the potion-brewing blaugh ; not sure why.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Witchcraft is not a religious practice. The idea that it is is bizarre. How can it be, in itself, a religious practice? Just because you happen to use it in a religious context doesn't make it a religious practice. It can be, but it isn't innately religious. Divination isn't religious, nor is herblore, spellwork, healing, local land wisdom, spirit communication, etc.

I agree with Sweet. Most correspondences for stuff like herbs came about due to experimentation and so on. Willow bark for headaches, for example. That's medicine, that is.  

[Korealia]

Ultraviolett1127

Then why would you recommend Wicca when what I am looking for is witchcraft?

Again, just to illustrate the idea that there are components which are religiously based. Whether it is Voodoo, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism - I have never seen anything labelled 'witchcraft' that did not have religious grounds. How can you determine such a thing exsists?

Ultraviolett1127

Again, why would you recommend Wiccan-influenced witchcraft sources when you just explicitly said you knew I was NOT looking for Wiccan-based witchcraft?

Again, just to illustrate the idea that there are components which are religiously based. Whether it is Voodoo, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism - I have never seen anything labelled 'witchcraft' that did not have religious grounds.

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Source on this? I know a few agnostic non-theistic witches that would probably disagree with this.

Do I really need a source on this? Say you use the planet VENUS as an influence. VENUS is named after a GODDESS. You can get that on Wiki. Or in a any kid's book on mythology. The moon, even with its natural pulls has a lot of religious connotations. Perhaps with herbs, the mythological/folkstory/religious aspect came after the discovery of uses, but it still has it's influences.

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No, the answers you gave allowed me to logically deduct that you hadn't the faintest idea what I was looking for. Very little assuming was done.

You said you were looking for Witchcraft. FOLKcraft is closer to the CunningWo/Man.

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Again, where do you get this witchcraft is rooted in religion?

You said you were looking for Witchcraft. FOLKcraft is closer to the CunningWo/Man.

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You want to enter into a discussion on witchcraft/magic and then sling around claims that a form of it is "improbable"? I guess one really is born every minute.

Improbable. I could lift a car off the ground with my bare hands. It's IMPROBABLE, but I've seen others do it before. I figured you were intelligent enough to figure that one out, but pop-shots look more your style. Guess I overestimated.

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Her Gaia name is Dogtooth Violet. Look her up.

I asked for a source, not a person.

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You keep making these claims that witchcraft is religious and continue to not back them up. Provide some source other than your own word or I'm just going to dismiss these statements as mental masturbation.

Even non-traditional or pre-traditional witchcraft has mythology and folklore steeped in it, and frankly, the area witchcraft stemmed from is Europe. RONALD HUTTON is a good SOURCE there. In fact, he's an expert in the field. Chas Heselton is another.

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I don't know you, and by your first impression I don't like you. As far as I'm concerned you really have no grounds to use a term of endearment with me.

The phrase is applied plurally. Do you have more than one person living in that mind? I could really care less about whether or not you like me - the post was for a discussion of a topic, and by putting out the question to the general public, that kind of means you get a generalized answer by just anyone, doesn't it? If you didn't want the idea discussed publicly with a myriad of opinions, why ask the question in such a format?

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Your condescending tone in your post was the affront, not the garbage in it.

And no matter whether I am just more of a jerk or actually, sincerely not meaning it, it doesn't matter - you'll still be a jerk anyway so what's the use?

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Oh, right. A cultural rapist. Just who I want to learn witchcraft from rolleyes .

If the digs make you feel better, keep going. "Cultural rape" has been going on since time began. It's still ongoing. Just ask any native american how they feel about the cheap resin dollar store 'indian baby' statuettes.

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How is burning herbs for influences innately religious? How are herbs burned to help induce trance religious?

For the first, I go back to the idea that the herb's influence is in direct correlation with a religious practice. How would you know that the herb has a specific magical influence if not through myth and folklore at it's basis? Just because someone told you so? "Burn sage for clarity." Native Americans burned it to clear themselves of negative influences. Wouldn't you call them spiritual/religious? Doesn't that mean that you are propagating a religious practice, even if you are using it in a 'non-religious' form? I'm really not trying to be argumentative and condescending, I'm trying to make a point.

If non-religious, what would be the usage of trancework? In the history of mankind, where have you seen trancework used that wasn't for religious/spiritual purpose? They believed the Oracles of Delphi inhaled natural gases through rock fissures to go into a trance and make divinations - but they were dedicated to Apollo.

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Proof please? Or is this more "bcuz i says sew!" ?

Do I really need a source on this? Say you use the planet VENUS as an influence. VENUS is named after a GODDESS. You can get that on Wiki. Or in a any kid's book on mythology. The moon, even with its natural pulls has a lot of religious connotations. Just because you are not invoking that particular form of diety, you're still using it through default. It still has religious connotations.

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That you only have your word to go on and no sources to back it up? Yea I got that idea at the beginning of this post.[/post]

Okay, since you apparently can't use wikipedia yourself....here is one example....

Moon

Latin name, Luna, in order to distinguish it from other natural satellites, with a related adjective lunar, and an adjectival prefix seleno- or suffix -selene (from the Greek deity Selene).

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Proof?

Let me draw an analogy. If a doctor finds a cure and another doctor administers it, say via injection, does that invalidate the first doctor's discovery? Just because the second doctor holds a syringe and it works doesn't mean that the reason it works doesn't derive from the sciences the first doctor used to figure it out, right?

Just to make it easier, let's use Wiki, okay?

"Most recorded Cunning folk were Christian to one degree or another. Some cunning folk were priests, others were committed, regular church goers, and others seldom went to church at all, but there is no evidence that they were pagans in the sense of worshiping ancient gods. Cunning folk in general did not worry about how their magic worked; the important thing to them and their community is that people thought it did. Of course, some of the practices and spell craft used by the cunning folk may have had ancient roots, but the original pagan beliefs that went alongside the use of old charms were long gone, and they did not use a shamanic trance during treatment."

Dutch pow-wow might be a good example of this too (there are three seperate links here). In so saying that a lot of the spells exsist, but the reasoning behind them has become far obscure.

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But, telling me to look into Wicca even though you are unaware as to whether or not I already have a belief system is okay? It comes across as "Well, you may or may not believe in something already but I KNOW that you should look into Wicca."

I have used some of modern Wiccan publications as sources. You choose to be offended, you choose to read it that way - I never once said for you to convert or told you to 'look into the religion', I suggested books. I'm citing sources I know because in particular, I have Wiccan leanings and am more familiar with some of those books.

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Once again, I didn't have to assume; the implied tone of your post was enough.

Tonal inflection and rythmn are moot in a post. You DID assume. But good luck on your seeking. I'm done here....special olympics and all that.

 

[AiRune]

Anyway...back to the original topic, I think you'll get the best results from getting closer to the earth. Natural energies are always present and are always sacred. You'll have to use your senses more, though. Without religious constructs, there's nothing to guide your unconscious mind or to occupy your conscious one. That's why I like taking nature hikes and gardening. The activities let me get interact with the world around me and teaches me as I go. Nature is a wise mother.

I don't know what your interests are, but I've found that working on your psychic abilities, concentration, emotional control, and self-analysis do wonders for non-religious magic. Self-analysis especially. The better idea you have of what you truly want or need, the better the results. Tai chi and martial arts are also great ways to learn how to direct your energy with your mind and body.

I really like Ellen Dugan's books. She's a very practical witch and uses a lot kitchen witch and hedge witch techniques along with her Wiccan practice. Kerr Cuchlain's (not sure if that's spelled right) book Full Contact Magick is good for his ideas on combining magic and tai chi energy manipulation and responsibility in magic.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Korealia

Again, just to illustrate the idea that there are components which are religiously based. Whether it is Voodoo, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism - I have never seen anything labelled 'witchcraft' that did not have religious grounds. How can you determine such a thing exsists?

I know people who practice non-religious witchcraft. At this point too I am doubting it is available to look up in books, but that does not negate that non-religious witchcraft does exist.

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Again, just to illustrate the idea that there are components which are religiously based. Whether it is Voodoo, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism - I have never seen anything labelled 'witchcraft' that did not have religious grounds.

See above.

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Do I really need a source on this? Say you use the planet VENUS as an influence. VENUS is named after a GODDESS. You can get that on Wiki. Or in a any kid's book on mythology. The moon, even with its natural pulls has a lot of religious connotations. Perhaps with herbs, the mythological/folkstory/religious aspect came after the discovery of uses, but it still has it's influences.

Yes you need a source; you are making a claim that is at best, questionable. If you can't or don't want to support a claim then don't make it.

My name is Angela, which means an angel. Does that mean I'm an angel, or that anytime someone says my name, that they are invoking or otherwise talking to an angel? No. When I use a Venus razor, am I honoring the goddess Venus? No. If someone tells me today is Tuesday, I do not assume that they are giving honor and worship to Tyr.

Also, with your repeated use of Wiki as "sources" leads me to two conclusions.
1) You do not know what a credibly source is.
2) You have done no other serious research into your claims outside of a Google search.

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Improbable. I could lift a car off the ground with my bare hands. It's IMPROBABLE, but I've seen others do it before. I figured you were intelligent enough to figure that one out, but pop-shots look more your style. Guess I overestimated.

And who's taking cheap shots now?
So because I'm not suddenly dropping to your feet begging you for your bullshit knowledge, I'm not intelligent?
You're one of those people who use the "open-minded" card when someone doesn't agree with you, aren't you?

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I asked for a source, not a person.

She is a source. As well as a few other people. She is as much a source as Gardner is on Wicca if he were still alive to discuss it.

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Even non-traditional or pre-traditional witchcraft has mythology and folklore steeped in it, and frankly, the area witchcraft stemmed from is Europe. RONALD HUTTON is a good SOURCE there. In fact, he's an expert in the field. Chas Heselton is another.

Why do you assume that just because something has lore and myths attached to it, that it is automatically religious? The legend of Johnny Appleseed is hardly religious, for example.

And what does stemming from Europe have to do with supposed religious beginnings?

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The phrase is applied plurally. Do you have more than one person living in that mind? I could really care less about whether or not you like me - the post was for a discussion of a topic, and by putting out the question to the general public, that kind of means you get a generalized answer by just anyone, doesn't it? If you didn't want the idea discussed publicly with a myriad of opinions, why ask the question in such a format?

I am seeking informed opinions, which you have yet to provide.

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And no matter whether I am just more of a jerk or actually, sincerely not meaning it, it doesn't matter - you'll still be a jerk anyway so what's the use?

Say what you mean in an intelligent manner and we won't have this problem. I don't tolerate people who make utter jackasses of themselves and then whine about it when they get tread on.

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If the digs make you feel better, keep going. "Cultural rape" has been going on since time began. It's still ongoing. Just ask any native american how they feel about the cheap resin dollar store 'indian baby' statuettes.

Facts =|= "digs."

Just because something has been going on for a long time does not make it right. Rape, murder, thievery, and other things considered crimes have been going on for ages as well-so by your logic that means that we should consider them to be okay by virtue that they have been going on since the beginning of time.

Buckland is also considered an oath-breaker in the Wiccan community, and as a seeker, I am wondering why you would recommend someone who has broken his oaths as a source.

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For the first, I go back to the idea that the herb's influence is in direct correlation with a religious practice. How would you know that the herb has a specific magical influence if not through myth and folklore at it's basis? Just because someone told you so? "Burn sage for clarity." Native Americans burned it to clear themselves of negative influences. Wouldn't you call them spiritual/religious? Doesn't that mean that you are propagating a religious practice, even if you are using it in a 'non-religious' form? I'm really not trying to be argumentative and condescending, I'm trying to make a point.

If non-religious, what would be the usage of trancework? In the history of mankind, where have you seen trancework used that wasn't for religious/spiritual purpose? They believed the Oracles of Delphi inhaled natural gases through rock fissures to go into a trance and make divinations - but they were dedicated to Apollo.

Do you have a source for your idea that herbs' influences are/have a direct correlation to religion? Again, Wiki is not a credible source. And have you ignored the posts that pointed out that finding out herbs' correlations were most likely found through a process of trial and error?

Oh dear, I see we have a severe case of selective reading.

No, I do not consider it propagating a religious/spiritual practice anymore than using the names of the days of the week to be promoting the Roman or Norse deities.

Believing in spirits and other entities does not make one religious. There are some non-theists who believe that there might be spirits and the like about us. That does not make them religious, and some might even argue that it doesn't even make them spiritual (which I don't necessarily agree with, but hey, whatever). Trancework can be used to work with spirits; it is not solely a way to commune with deities. Why do you think that spiritual equates to religious? A person can use trancework for something and be spiritual, but not religious. And when you get into the argument that divination is neither religious nor really a part of witchcraft, your argument is moot.

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Just because you are not invoking that particular form of diety, you're still using it through default. It still has religious connotations.

Please see my above points using the names of the days of the week. They have no religious connotations. If they did, mentioning the names of the days would be considered sinful in the Abrahamic belief system since they would be "honoring" and supposedly invoking those gods.

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Okay, since you apparently can't use wikipedia yourself....here is one example....

Moon

Latin name, Luna, in order to distinguish it from other natural satellites, with a related adjective lunar, and an adjectival prefix seleno- or suffix -selene (from the Greek deity Selene).

I don't use Wiki for much of anything because it is not considered a credible source. It's nice if you want a quick, general overview on a topic (and even then it can be questionable), but this conversation has evolved beyond that.

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Let me draw an analogy. If a doctor finds a cure and another doctor administers it, say via injection, does that invalidate the first doctor's discovery? Just because the second doctor holds a syringe and it works doesn't mean that the reason it works doesn't derive from the sciences the first doctor used to figure it out, right?

Just to make it easier, let's use Wiki, okay?

Your analogy makes no sense without quoting what it is an analogy to.

And no, let's not use Wiki.

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(there are three seperate links here). In so saying that a lot of the spells exsist, but the reasoning behind them has become far obscure.

Two of those links talk more about cultural practices of witchcraft, not religious. Religious tones were added to them as they grew, but that does not make the witchcraft innately religious.

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I have used some of modern Wiccan publications as sources. You choose to be offended, you choose to read it that way - I never once said for you to convert or told you to 'look into the religion', I suggested books. I'm citing sources I know because in particular, I have Wiccan leanings and am more familiar with some of those books.

Good for you.

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Tonal inflection and rythmn are moot in a post. You DID assume. But good luck on your seeking. I'm done here....special olympics and all that.

And this is where I throw down my gauntlet.

You think that using mental and/or physical handicap is a joke? You think it's funny? You make me ******** sick.

You're a ******** b***h. And I say this without care to repercussions. How dare you think that it's okay to use that as a jab? What kind of house were you raised in? Do you make fun of people for their race as well? It's no different than using handicaps as an insult; neither are in control of the person.

You are hereby permanently black-listed from this thread and any other thread I create in the future; each thread will have a black list in the OP and your name will be the first one on the list, with the reason given that you think something like mental and/or physical handicap is funny and is okay to use as an insult. Posting anymore in this thread or any future thread will result in a PM being sent to the Guild captain (who has an Autistic child) for your post to be removed. Any contact with me via PM will be reported as harassment.

I am done with your unintelligible claims, your non-credible sources, your manipulation and otherwise changing of words and definitions to fit your means. If you can not tell the difference between being religious and being spiritual, the difference between religion and culture, and the difference between Wicca and witchcraft, I am under no obligation to listen to your babbling.

May the gods see fit to form your children with only half of their brains and/or bodies, so that the next time someone makes handicap into an insult, you can see if you still find it funny. Take your bigotry and get the Hel out of my thread.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Tashinada

Anyway...back to the original topic, I think you'll get the best results from getting closer to the earth. Natural energies are always present and are always sacred. You'll have to use your senses more, though. Without religious constructs, there's nothing to guide your unconscious mind or to occupy your conscious one. That's why I like taking nature hikes and gardening. The activities let me get interact with the world around me and teaches me as I go. Nature is a wise mother.

I don't know what your interests are, but I've found that working on your psychic abilities, concentration, emotional control, and self-analysis do wonders for non-religious magic. Self-analysis especially. The better idea you have of what you truly want or need, the better the results. Tai chi and martial arts are also great ways to learn how to direct your energy with your mind and body.

I really like Ellen Dugan's books. She's a very practical witch and uses a lot kitchen witch and hedge witch techniques along with her Wiccan practice. Kerr Cuchlain's (not sure if that's spelled right) book Full Contact Magick is good for his ideas on combining magic and tai chi energy manipulation and responsibility in magic.

I like Kerr Cuchulain. Never read any of his books, but read a few of his articles on Witchvox. He's good people.

That's fairly good advice. I'm not sure if it's what Vi's looking for precisely, but I think sometimes we can all get bogged down in books and it's a good reminder to go back to nature and to our own selves and so on. Much of my own craft I make up as I go along, simply because anything I read starts going on about Wicca or isn't the Trad Witchcraft it pretends to be.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Agreed; I've been skulking around the Traditional Witchcraft Forum site and it seems that re-tuning with the natural world is a very important part of getting into the proper mindset. I'll admit I'm not nearly as in tune with nature as I was in my "Wiccan" days, but I know it wouldn't hurt to get back into it.

I don't believe that I have any psychic abilities though; and if I do they're severely atrophied. To throw an oddball question out there, do you think it's possible to obtain psychic abilities if you work hard enough at it, or do you think they're something you're born with or you're not born with?  

[too2sweet]

For better or worse...I am going to lock this thread for now.

If someone has suggestions for links, books or other sources on the practice of non-religious based witchcraft, or other relevant comments, please PM them to me and I will post them here in the thread.

On the topic of discussions...general discussion threads don't necessarily require source material - if you are posting something along the lines of "my opinion is .....", but in extended discussions or anytime that you are making "this is the truth about ..." statements, if someone asks you to supply a source - it is usually a good idea to have one ready. Also if you make a mistake, it's usually ok, just say "I may have been mistaken....". I personally have said any number of idiotic things over the years, it happens, I am sure I will continue to say idiotic things in the foreseeable future since I seriously doubt that I will have perfect knowledge of everything anytime soon. It's also good to remember that even when someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean that they are attacking you personally. Besides, if we all agreed with each other, it'd be a pretty boring place.

smile  

[too2sweet]

Ultraviolett1127

To throw an oddball question out there, do you think it's possible to obtain psychic abilities if you work hard enough at it, or do you think they're something you're born with or you're not born with?

I think that everyone is born with some degree of psychic ability, it's just that some people are more attuned to it than others. I think that like any other ability "practice makes perfect", but if you weren't one of the ones who was born with a higher affinity for it, you might have to "practice" a lot harder. If it were something you were planning to use on a regular basis, then lots of hard work might be worth it. If it were something that you were only going to use occasionally (or never), then it might be a case of "why bother".  

[too2sweet]

Vi...you might want to check out this Yahoo group on traditional witchcraft.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TraditionalWitchcraft/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=5  

[too2sweet]

Scorplett has these listed as resources on Trad Witchcraft...

TRADITIONAL WITCHCRAFT
Mastering Witchcraft – Paul Huson
Conversations with a Witch – Lois Bourne
The Forge of Tubal Cain - Ann Finnin
The Crooked Path Journal (Various Contributors)
Hedge Rider - Eric de Vries
Sorgitzak: Old Forest Craft - Veronica Cummer

apparently she updated her list again gonk
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/wiccan-faq-profit/t.22819829_1816/