Wiccan initiation?

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Starlock

wicca_for_life14, understand that Sanguina and UV speak truth from the perspective of more traditional forms of Wicca; the actual valid form of Wicca

I fixed it for ya, no worries.

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They're talking about a specific subsection of what the word "Wicca" is used to describe which is truer to its original conception by big G.

It is the only actual, recognized "subsection" of Wicca.
Anything that does not follow the orthopraxic nature of Wicca and is not a clergy hood of the Lord and Lady of the Isles is not Wicca and I don't know why you would encourage people to misuse a word like that.

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You, like the vast majority, use the term Wicca to apply to a much broader range than simply those directly derived from big G, so what they say doesn't make any sense to you.

No, it doesn't make sense to her because she's ******** willfully ignorant.
Don't encourage people to wallow in their ignorance like that. Unless said ignorance is morally and ethically okay to you....in which case I have major questions about it.

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It's easy to become confused with this sort of miscommunication.

Except it's not a miscommunication.
Facts can be miscommunicated, but they are not miscommunications in and of themselves.

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Do try not to loose your cool. You don't have to share their controversial perspective that lineaged forms of Wicca are the one-and-only true forms of Wicca; most don't.

Which is why "most" people aren't Wicca.
She doesn't have to agree, no. But will actual, intelligent Pagans take her seriously in her claim "OMG i R wikkin!!1!"? Nope.
Why are you encouraging people to disagree with objective reality?

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Listen to them though, to get an idea of Wicca was in its more original only form. It's somewhat interesting and has a character distinct from the more mainstream varieties of Wicca. wink

Finally, you've said something half-way correct.
What we are telling her is the only valid form and usage of the word Wicca. Anything else is raping the religion and the culture of the religion.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

wicca_for_life14

hmmm wow you are very close minded you cant even accept anything other than what you belive. im saying it less organized for me at least because there is no set day i do a spell or no sort of church or meeting i attend. i said i belive that inituation is introducing yourself and how dare you undermind what i belive in. there is no reason for you to get so *bleep* angry. you might think you know everything but you really dont. talk2hand

Wow, you are very closed-minded. You can't even accept objective reality that differs from what you believe. How dare you undermine objective reality. You might think you know everything but you really don't.

I didn't talk about your beliefs, child. I was talking about "initiation" and what the word actually means.

Changing the definition of words and then saying "you can't disagree with me because it's what I BELIEVE" is pathetic, childish, and laughable.

I wasn't angry at all before. I was actually being quite pleasant. Now I am angry. You must be trolling because no sensible person would actually say "I believe that the word ____ actually means something different to what the dictionary and all informed people say it means, and you can't tell me otherwise, how DARE you undermine my foolish beliefs!"  

[MidnightLetter]

wicca_for_life14... San-chan simply responded to your post. She was not rude or angry or undermining in any. Good debates are made when people respond to each others points, and it's not something to get offended by if someone isn't agreeing with you. The best way to learn new things is by paying attention when other people are disagreeing with you, it gives you a chance to go and check into those things and see if maybe they have a valid point. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're not, it's the way life goes.


~~*~~

In general and in order to "keep the peace" since this topic seems to keep coming up...the point of these discussion is to be aware that there is a vast difference between what traditional Wicca is, and that which the general public calls Wicca.

Traditional Wicca is an orthopraxic, oath-bound, fertility based, mystery religion, that requires cross-gender coven initiation. The core material that makes up traditional Wicca is oath-bound, and has never appeared in print, the books out there claiming to be about Wicca are at best based on the non-oath bound parts of Wicca, and in other cases don't resemble it at all.

In order for something to be considered Neo-Wicca (which when you consider that Wicca itself is only 50 or so years old...saying neo-wicca is somewhat amusing, but I digress), it still has to resemble (at least as much as possible) trad Wicca. If you make it "whatever you want it to be", then there is no point at all in calling it Wicca. It then becomes eclectic paganism, or eclectic witchcraft.


Either one you chose...self-initiation is more or less impossible. You can choose to dedicate yourself to a path or a God/ess, but one cannot initiate oneself into mysteries.

Starting with the 6th post in this thread there are some excellent points to consider in the Trad vs. Neo debate. They are worth looking at.  

[Aryain Flames]

all right, i want to make sure i understand this. what you are saying is that self-initiation doesn't make sense. and i think i understand that. what i am wondering then, can u call yourself pagan (note i did not say wiccan) if you have not been initiated? u see, i dont belong to a particular coven of any sort, and am not sure that i would care to be. for one thing, i KNOW my parents would not approve, and even if i wanted to be initiated, i dont know anyone who could do that for me. But i truley believe in the God and Goddess and do not want to give this all up because of an initiation issue. so, again, i ask "can u be pagan and not be initiated?"  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Aryain Flames

all right, i want to make sure i understand this. what you are saying is that self-initiation doesn't make sense. and i think i understand that. what i am wondering then, can u call yourself pagan (note i did not say wiccan) if you have not been initiated?

Yes.
Not all branches of Paganism require initiation.
Asatru does not require an initiation, for example.

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u see, i dont belong to a particular coven of any sort, and am not sure that i would care to be. for one thing, i KNOW my parents would not approve, and even if i wanted to be initiated, i dont know anyone who could do that for me. But i truley believe in the God and Goddess and do not want to give this all up because of an initiation issue. so, again, i ask "can u be pagan and not be initiated?"

Indeed 3nodding .
Wicca is not synonymous with Pagan; rather, Wicca is one of many faiths that fall under the umbrella of Paganism.  

[Aryain Flames]

Thanks a ton for clearing that up!  

[Starlock]

Ultra, do not presume to 'correct' my post when the alleged 'corrections' are as equally in denial of reality as you claim my post is.

There is controversy surrounding this issue. The controversy regarding this subject is also far from closed. This argument has been around since before all of us here were born and it's going to be around when we're all old and grey. Don't slap people as being 'ignorant' or misunderstanding the 'facts' or in denial of 'objective' reality when there is a genuine controversy surrounding this issue. While it may not be your intention, it comes off as rude and patronizing. Worse, it creates another level of misinformation that largely ends up confusing the issue further for newcomers as well as for those who are not members of the Neopagan community.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Starlock

Ultra, do not presume to 'correct' my post when the alleged 'corrections' are as equally in denial of reality as you claim my post is.

How are they in "denial" of reality?
Because the corrections don't take into account all of the stupid teens who are misappropriating a term they have no right to? You'll have to forgive me if I consider them to be completely dishonest and in denial.

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There is controversy surrounding this issue.

A false controversy.
Wicca is a closed tradition. It only changes when people who are members of that tradition on the inside dictate that this is to be change. Those who are members of Wicca have not dictated such a thing. And it is also not for the masses to determine what is and is not Wicca.

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The controversy regarding this subject is also far from closed.

Because there is a huge whining mass of speshul chozen 1z who *think* that they deserve a title that they have not met the requirements for?
Should I start bitching about how I deserve the title of "Doctor" on the basis that I can give people Tylenol? That's basically what non-Wiccans who think that they are Wiccan are doing.

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This argument has been around since before all of us here were born and it's going to be around when we're all old and grey.

So we should just give up in spreading correct information?

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Don't slap people as being 'ignorant' or misunderstanding the 'facts' or in denial of 'objective' reality when there is a genuine controversy surrounding this issue.

I call people they way they present themselves. If someone doesn't want to be called ignorant? Why then, they should act and present themselves in a way that does not bring ignorance to mind.
And as I have explained before, it isn't a "genuine" controversey. It's bitchy whiny teenagers (and some adults, to be fair) who want a title that they don't meet the requirements for! Would it still be a genuine controversey if we had a group of people bitching about not being allowed to be recognized as full-fledged doctors when all they know is basic first-aid?

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While it may not be your intention, it comes off as rude and patronizing.

-shrug-
I speak. It's not my fault or business how someone misconstrues it.

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Worse, it creates another level of misinformation that largely ends up confusing the issue further for newcomers as well as for those who are not members of the Neopagan community.

How is it another level of misinformation?
Everyone is confused about it at one point or another; should we just not confuse the poor pweshush Pagan newbies and let them think that Wicca is whatever they want it to be? I mean, I'd sure hate for any of them to have to be confused about anything! How terrible!  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

This is only a controversy in the same way that evolution is a controversy.

Sure, there are two sides to the story, but once you understand the issue, you only take one of them seriously.  

[MidnightLetter]

I usually try to look at it from the standpoint that the average person doesn't know that they are misinformed. So it in a real sense it isn't completely their fault, so I try to keep that in mind when letting them know that there are a few facts that they might be missing out on. Those that are truly interested will take the time to at least look into what is presented (no matter how painful it may be to contemplate that we could be wrong about it...and it is painful). When 90% of the world is telling you one thing (even if it isn't the truth), it can be really hard to believe someone who comes along telling you something different.

How long did humans believe that the earth was flat...or that the sun revolved around the earth? How well did that go for those who begged to differ? Not so well as I remember it. Not that "Wicca" vs. Wicca is anywhere on that scale, but to our specific community it probably can feel that way. biggrin

The best we can do is state our cases. As long as we continue to put the facts out there, there will be those that understand and those that don't. The ones that don't (for the most part) probably aren't that serious about the whole thing anyways, so in the end - continuing to argue about may just be a waste of energy.  

[Aryain Flames]

Alright, i have one more question. Before reading this information, i thought an initiation was a way to dedicate yourself to the Lord and Lady. While i see now that i was misinformed on the subject, i was wondering - would it then be wrong to self-conduct a ceremony in which i dedicated myself the the God and goddess???  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Aryain Flames

Alright, i have one more question. Before reading this information, i thought an initiation was a way to dedicate yourself to the Lord and Lady.

Nope, initiation is a set of rites that one must perform to be accepted into a group, which is why the terms "self-initiation" is impossible; if you're doing it yourself, there is no group being entered into and thus is not an initiation.

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While i see now that i was misinformed on the subject, i was wondering - would it then be wrong to self-conduct a ceremony in which i dedicated myself the the God and goddess???

No that would be fine biggrin biggrin biggrin
Many people I would say do a self-dedication to their deities. Especially when you get into religions where initiation is not a requirement, but one wants to do a ritual to formalize their bond to a deity 3nodding .  

[Aryain Flames]

awesome!!!!!!! thanx for clearing that up!  

[mayuri12]

Um, I was introduced to wicca and I found that it made so much sense and I respected the concepts and beliefs because I believed in similar aspects. My friend was wicca and introduced me to it, I havent been officially initiated into wicca though so idk what to do or if I can even call myself wicca, someone please help me because I really want to become wicca, because I believe that there are gods and goddesses of each element and that we should pay respect to these Gods and Goddesses and that we should worship the earth because she is the life force that has given us life, not just cause I think magic is cool, so can someone please guide me? crying  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

mayuri12

Um, I was introduced to wicca and I found that it made so much sense and I respected the concepts and beliefs because I believed in similar aspects.

What you most likely were introduced to were the outer-court materials of Wicca.
Nothing wrong with that, but understand that it's such a small fraction of what Wicca really is wink .

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My friend was wicca and introduced me to it, I havent been officially initiated into wicca though so idk what to do or if I can even call myself wicca,

No, you shouldn't.
You can call yourself a Wicca-influenced Pagan or similar, but it would be dishonest to call yourself Wiccan.

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someone please help me because I really want to become wicca, because I believe that there are gods and goddesses of each element and that we should pay respect to these Gods and Goddesses and that we should worship the earth because she is the life force that has given us life, not just cause I think magic is cool, so can someone please guide me? crying

Well first off, Wicca is about fertility, not nature. So if nature is more your focus then Wicca might not be your bag.
As far as I am aware, the elements are not treated as deities in Wicca and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.
Also, Wicca is ditheistic, not polythiestic. It worships two specific deities (the Lord and Lady of the Isles) in its practice; no other gods. It isn't unusual for a Wiccan to follow other gods as well, but they do not incorporate the other gods into Wiccan ritual.