Internal vs. External bolts

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?  

[Stoic Socialist]

Improvised fore-grip, I'd assume.  

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

Improvised fore-grip, I'd assume.

Actually, isn't the TEC-9 considered a submachine gun or a machine pistol? Because technically the MP5PDW is right there with it too, if you look at it that way.  

[Stoic Socialist]

It's a submachine gun based off of the Carl Gustaf M/45 action.
Without the full-auto function though, it's just a pistol. Albeit an "assault pistol".

EDIT: I've noticed that the "internal bolts" you speak of is largely used when the magazine is outside the grip. Rifle caliber rifles, for example. Saiga-12. Sure, things like the Kel-tec SUB-2000 are an exception. But maybe it's possible that the trigger housing gets in the way?  

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

It's a submachine gun based off of the Carl Gustaf M/45 action.
Without the full-auto function though, it's just a pistol. Albeit an "assault pistol".

EDIT: I've noticed that the "internal bolts" you speak of is largely used when the magazine is outside the grip. Rifle caliber rifles, for example. Saiga-12. Sure, things like the Kel-tec SUB-2000 are an exception. But maybe it's possible that the trigger housing gets in the way?

Well, pistols that were built for another action are a different thing altogether. The TEC-9 is a pistol, but essentially it's just a crippled submachine gun. The Glock 18 is a machine pistol, but essentially a it's just Glock 17 on ******** horse steroids. Both of them are minor tweaks to an existing design that change the firing modes. Other than these aberrations, by point still stands. These pistols aren't original designs made for semi-autos, they're designs ripped from full-autos.

Maybe, but I can't see in my head why that would be. Maybe it has something to do with the straight stick magazine.  

[Stoic Socialist]

What about the Kel-Tec PLR-16?

It was designed from the start to be a .223 pistol.
It has a different operating system than an AR-15. It has a rifle conversion kit, but that came a while after it started being a pistol.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.htm  

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

What about the Kel-Tec PLR-16?

It was designed from the start to be a .223 pistol.
It has a different operating system than an AR-15. It has a rifle conversion kit, but that came a while after it started being a pistol.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.htm

Possibly, although it does looks like it uses some AR parts. Still has the magazine forward of the grip though. And... it's not a pistol caliber.  

[Stoic Socialist]

I'm demonstrating my trigger housing theory by showing that when the magazine is outside the grip, there is an "internal" bolt.  

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

I'm demonstrating my trigger housing theory by showing that when the magazine is outside the grip, there is an "internal" bolt.

Right, I got that. I wonder why there's no crossovers though?  

[Man of the Demoneye]

Fresnel

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.  

[Fresnel]

Man of the Demoneye

Fresnel

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.

Oh, I perfectly understand that, but by putting all that s**t on top of your hand, you get a better-balanced gun, which leads to easier aiming. Maybe it's an issue of stabbing oneself in the wrist with the gun? confused

A thought though... the TEC-9 is still blowback-powered, isn't it? I'm wondering why there are no gas-powered pistols.  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

Man of the Demoneye

Fresnel

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.

Oh, I perfectly understand that, but by putting all that s**t on top of your hand, you get a better-balanced gun, which leads to easier aiming. Maybe it's an issue of stabbing oneself in the wrist with the gun? confused

A thought though... the TEC-9 is still blowback-powered, isn't it? I'm wondering why there are no gas-powered pistols.

I just think that the gas powered systems for a small pistol would be over elaborate. In other words, too bulky or complex to make disassembling, repair or even cleaning easy.

Unless you really want a massive ******** handgun that couldn't possibly be wielded with two hands on the grip.  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Man of the Demoneye

Fresnel

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.

Oh, I perfectly understand that, but by putting all that s**t on top of your hand, you get a better-balanced gun, which leads to easier aiming. Maybe it's an issue of stabbing oneself in the wrist with the gun? confused

A thought though... the TEC-9 is still blowback-powered, isn't it? I'm wondering why there are no gas-powered pistols.

I just think that the gas powered systems for a small pistol would be over elaborate. In other words, too bulky or complex to make disassembling, repair or even cleaning easy.

Unless you really want a massive ******** handgun that couldn't possibly be wielded with two hands on the grip.

I don't know that a pistol that big is possible. wink  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Man of the Demoneye

Fresnel

Stoic Socialist

[/thread]

But why don't they build them with magazines inside the grip?

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.

Oh, I perfectly understand that, but by putting all that s**t on top of your hand, you get a better-balanced gun, which leads to easier aiming. Maybe it's an issue of stabbing oneself in the wrist with the gun? confused

A thought though... the TEC-9 is still blowback-powered, isn't it? I'm wondering why there are no gas-powered pistols.

I just think that the gas powered systems for a small pistol would be over elaborate. In other words, too bulky or complex to make disassembling, repair or even cleaning easy.

Unless you really want a massive ******** handgun that couldn't possibly be wielded with two hands on the grip.

I don't know that a pistol that big is possible. wink

Yeah, you need like, two and a half hands.

Also, wasn't that the single shot .50 BMG?  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Man of the Demoneye

Because then the entire round would have to pop up, then slide all the way forward towards the chamber and up again. The space in the gun behind where the bolt is visible is where all the internal pieces go when the bolt is thrown back. In a conventional handgun, the hammer, pin, etc. (depending on what you look at) is not in the way because the slide moves back. This is like securing the bolt in a vise and moving the gun to extract / chamber a new round.

In order to put the magazine in the grip, you would have all that stuff behind where the magazine is still there. Best way to explain this would be to take a pistol, hold the slide back and (pretend to) shoot it that way. Too much stuff in the way behind your hand, right?

There is no doubt that this can be improved though; make it more compact and ergonomic and you could have an idea there.

Oh, I perfectly understand that, but by putting all that s**t on top of your hand, you get a better-balanced gun, which leads to easier aiming. Maybe it's an issue of stabbing oneself in the wrist with the gun? confused

A thought though... the TEC-9 is still blowback-powered, isn't it? I'm wondering why there are no gas-powered pistols.

I just think that the gas powered systems for a small pistol would be over elaborate. In other words, too bulky or complex to make disassembling, repair or even cleaning easy.

Unless you really want a massive ******** handgun that couldn't possibly be wielded with two hands on the grip.

I don't know that a pistol that big is possible. wink

Yeah, you need like, two and a half hands.

Also, wasn't that the single shot .50 BMG?

Yup. Twelve pounds. Recoil was described as "not too bad, really" by an average-sized woman who had personally fired the gun. The given ballistics show the round retains 1350 fps and 3033 fpe at 1000 yards. That's faster than the muzzle velocity of most pistol rounds at almost a quarter mile. It's a sniper pistol. xd