Misconceptions about Wicca

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

WitchyBoy

personally i dont see the issue, i mean ive never been initiated but i took the wiccan self initiation and after all isnt it really up to the gods as to whos wiccan and who isnt?

What "Wiccan self-initiation"?
Self-initiation is an oxymoron.
When one is being initiated, they are being accepted into a group via certain rites. If you're initiating yourself, there is no group to be accepted into and thus the initiation is pointless confused

And it's up to the gods to call those to Wicca whom they want to be their priests and priestesses. The person who created the religion and got it into working order as well as those who uphold it now are the ones who are responsible for regulating who is and who isn't of the faith.  

[too2sweet]

He probably meant "self-dedication" - he's on a neo-wiccan path, if I'm not mistaken.  

[doistu]

This is were all the confusion lies for neo-pagans who want to be wiccan. The line between Wicca and an electic neo-pagan path is never drawn in much of the material presented to them on the subject and it isn't untill they reach forums such as these that they get a swift and sometimes brutal kick in the face.

I totally get the frustration on the part of those speaking for Wicca. I understand how repetitive and boring it is to go over the same process.

But these kids full-on believe that their path is a true one and that they've been given the right information because "who's ever read a book that lies?" So essentially they are being told that their path isn't a valid one...

someone I once knew said that its practically the same as telling and proving to a Christian that the 10 commandments aren't valid or that Jesus never...happened.

So they are bound to cling onto what they believe was true, not because they're unwilling to accept the truth but because they don't know where to go next and this is all they feel they have.

Am I making any sense? I've babbled
xx  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

doistu

This is were all the confusion lies for neo-pagans who want to be wiccan. The line between Wicca and an electic neo-pagan path is never drawn in much of the material presented to them on the subject and it isn't untill they reach forums such as these that they get a swift and sometimes brutal kick in the face.

Definitely. One of the things that has annoyed me for a while is that none of the Traditional Wiccans have yet gotten off their arses to write a book. All they do is say "go read Gardner", which is great, until you remember how littered with falsities and errors it is in hindsight. 60 years was a long time ago. Someone needs to write a book that a) doesn't equate Wicca with witchcraft and vice versa and b) blatantly say that Wicca is an ancient religion hidden for centuries.

It just pisses me off that they b***h on and on about the bad books but no one can be fagged writing a good one.

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But these kids full-on believe that their path is a true one and that they've been given the right information because "who's ever read a book that lies?"

This is what got me when I was first getting into it. Books that are "non-fiction" are "truth" and contain "facts". How could a book that was in the non-fiction section be full of lies? I felt terribly betrayed when I first realised Silver was a lying b***h. Books were meant to be reliable.

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So essentially they are being told that their path isn't a valid one...

This is something that I think needs to be made more clear by some people when they're trying to correct a person. Essentially it's just about the word that they're using, but when your identification of your faith is tied into that word, you feel like you're being told that you're not faithful, not a good Pagan, living a lie, your path isn't valid... rather than just being told that you're not Wiccan. So I think this distinction is terribly important and people need to remember to say as much early on in a discussion.

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someone I once knew said that its practically the same as telling and proving to a Christian that the 10 commandments aren't valid or that Jesus never...happened.

So they are bound to cling onto what they believe was true, not because they're unwilling to accept the truth but because they don't know where to go next and this is all they feel they have.

And this is the other side of the equation. The people on the other side of the argument have a responsibility too to look beyond the name to their actual beliefs and practices. They may interpret it as being an attack on their faith and obviously the distinction should be made, but they also need to understand that this isn't about what they believe (...most of the time). No one is asking them to give up their religion, just to use a different word when describing it. They can cling onto what they believe is true all they like, so long as they don't use the word "Wicca".

Of course, then you get all the other lies - "Wicca is an ancient religion" and so on. Those can be things that are a part of your beliefs, and yeah, it'd hurt to understand that. It always hurts when what you understood to be so ends up not being so. It's always disconcerting and disorienting. But it's a necessary step.  

[doistu]

Sanguina-chan

Definitely. One of the things that has annoyed me for a while is that none of the Traditional Wiccans have yet gotten off their arses to write a book. All they do is say "go read Gardner", which is great, until you remember how littered with falsities and errors it is in hindsight. 60 years was a long time ago. Someone needs to write a book that a) doesn't equate Wicca with witchcraft and vice versa and b) blatantly say that Wicca is an ancient religion hidden for centuries.

Closest thing to a real wiccan book I've ever heard of is The Witches' Bible by Janet and Stuart Farrar. As far as I know this is the most accurate book on wicca available to those outside the realms of oathbound material.

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This is what got me when I was first getting into it. Books that are "non-fiction" are "truth" and contain "facts". How could a book that was in the non-fiction section be full of lies? I felt terribly betrayed when I first realised Silver was a lying b***h. Books were meant to be reliable.

Exactly. It just turns into a nasty game where I (meaning person in question) can't win. Who could I trust now? I can't trust books, the internet or any of my friends and family so now I'm stuck ain't I? In limbo.

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And this is the other side of the equation. The people on the other side of the argument have a responsibility too to look beyond the name to their actual beliefs and practices. They may interpret it as being an attack on their faith and obviously the distinction should be made, but they also need to understand that this isn't about what they believe (...most of the time). No one is asking them to give up their religion, just to use a different word when describing it. They can cling onto what they believe is true all they like, so long as they don't use the word "Wicca".

I think empathy and sympathy is needed. Many of the neo-pagans who stand by their "wiccan" arguement are a lot younger and may in fact not be able to cope with the debate they've entered. The subject needs to be approached delicately.
Yelling at some one about how they're practically defecating on your religion is hardly going to make them more interested in studying it in it's proper context.  

[Captain Eliana]

doistu

I think empathy and sympathy is needed. Many of the neo-pagans who stand by their "wiccan" arguement are a lot younger and may in fact not be able to cope with the debate they've entered. The subject needs to be approached delicately.
Yelling at some one about how they're practically defecating on your religion is hardly going to make them more interested in studying it in it's proper context.

I say explain things nicely and patiently, then rip them in half when they don't listen. It worked when I was claiming the title "eclectic Wiccan" without realizing I wasn't entitled to it.

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Now playing: Eminem - Mosh
via FoxyTunes  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

And, fair's fair, basically it's the word of books against "some guy I met on the internet". It's only realistic to expect people to trust the books xd  

[Captain Eliana]

Sanguina-chan

And, fair's fair, basically it's the word of books against "some guy I met on the internet". It's only realistic to expect people to trust the books xd

Don't get me started on Ravenwolf.  

[WitchyBoy]

well im sorry there is no covens available here in northern canada so bite me!, ive read the books from gardner and have done the rituals and spells of wiica and done the dedication. so if thats not practicing wicca please explain to me what is!  

[doistu]

WitchyBoy

well im sorry there is no covens available here in northern canada so bite me!, ive read the books from gardner and have done the rituals and spells of wiica and done the dedication. so if thats not practicing wicca please explain to me what is!

Calm down! None of this "bite me" stuff.

To practice Wicca you must become part of a coven. Anything practiced outside this context isn't Wicca.
You must be initiated into a coven that links its liniage back to Gardner himself.

Covens will typically only take on seekers at the age of 18 plus. From then you will be expected to do a lot of study under the guidance of elders etc (I'm doing all this from what I've heard so if anyone knows otherwise I apologise please correct me). Then you may be initiated. It is only at this point you become a wiccan.

You need to become part of a coven to be a wiccan. You can't possibly have done the work necessary to claim the title because most of the information concerning wicca is oathbound and can't be passed onto normal folk like you or I.

The fact that all of this is true does not make your beliefs any less than what they are. They're simply not wiccan. They're electic neo-pagan if you will.

I went through the same thing and when I found out what Wicca really was I knew that it just wasn't for me. I'm now happy believing in what I believe as a witch.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

WitchyBoy

well im sorry there is no covens available here in northern canada so bite me!

Why the hate?
Why are you so nasty to the truth?
Why are you expecting a coven in your backyard?
Being in service to the Lord and Lady usually requires a sacrifice - of time, money, travel, etc...
Hel, you may not even be called to their priesthood! Just because you want to be Wiccan, does not mean that you will actually become Wiccan. There are many who seek to become Wiccan, but many are turned away or just never make it. Wicca is not for everyone and as such, the gods don't call everyone to be in their service.

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ive read the books from gardner and have done the rituals and spells of wiica and done the dedication. so if thats not practicing wicca please explain to me what is!

Gardner's books do not contain all of the ritual structures; if you could learn all of the rituals in books, they would no longer be considered Mysteries neutral
And if you have somehow learned the correct ritual structures and the other oath-bound material, you have learned from an oath-breaker and your practice is STILL not considered Wiccan by the actual Wiccan community.

Practicing Wicca is to be a priest/ess to the Lord and Lady of the Isles. Are you a priest to the Lord and Lady of the Isles? No? Then you're not Wiccan. We've been over this before. Is there something you're not understanding?

Dedication =|= initiation. You can dedicate yourself to something, that's fine. But dedication is not sufficient for Wicca. Wicca requires an initiation. And I explained in my previous post why self-initiation is a contradiction of terms.

I'm not saying your path is lesser or invalid; I'm simply saying your path is NOT Wicca and thus you are not Wiccan.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Captain Eliana

Sanguina-chan

And, fair's fair, basically it's the word of books against "some guy I met on the internet". It's only realistic to expect people to trust the books xd

Don't get me started on Ravenwolf.

Did I mention Ravenwolf? neutral  

[WitchyBoy]

10 years of study under a spiritual teacher, teaching my own students and knowing the bulk of the mysteries better then most initiated wiccans and this is still not enough for you people! scream  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

WitchyBoy

10 years of study under a spiritual teacher

Was this spiritual teacher a Wiccan? Did she initiate you? Did you perform the five-fold kiss? Did she perform the five-fold kiss?
What is the elemental weapon of ether?

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teaching my own students

And?

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and knowing the bulk of the mysteries better then most initiated wiccans and this is still not enough for you people! scream

You do know that there are other Mysteries aside from the Wiccan Mysteries, right? It's possible to have an eclectic path and come across mysteries in that as well. You may know some mysteries, and that's fine. However, those mysteries are not the mysteries of Wicca.

And please explain how you know the Mysteries of Wicca better than actual Wiccans. Did you learn from an oath-breaker? Then you're still not considered a Wiccan in the Wiccan community. Similar to the fact that a practicing doctor could teach you all about how to be a doctor, but if you lack an actual degree in medicine, then the medical community does not consider you a doctor.

Why is it so important to you to cling to the title of Wicca/n when it's been proven time and time again that you are NOT Wiccan? I don't know if you're just in denial or there's a comprehension problem on your end.  

[o sunflower king]

I think so many kids are claiming "Wicca" as thier titles for multiple reasons.
Authors like Ravenwolf use a sugar-coated, first-grade description of Neo-Wicca, passing it off as true Wicca, to get more kids to buy her books, and likely the books of her publisher.
There's also the "shock value" and "cool factor" of being part of a religion that conjures up images of pentacles and cauldrons to the ignorant. There's the whole "LOL I KAN KAST MAJIK LOLOL" factor as well.
Lastly, there's the human need to be right. If someone is genuinely mislead, and believes they have the right information, they hate being proven wrong. No one likes to find out something they put their faith in is a misconception.

I used to pass off Neo-Wicca as true Wicca, because I was under the impression that Wicca was the sugar-coated crap I was led to believe. I was never one of the "shock value" kids, though. I was a genuine Seeker, still am.
I grew out of that and now identify with just plain-old paganism. 3nodding