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 Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:19 pm
Atma311 How does one... humanely... kill an animal? I'm just curious. Anyway, like I said, many people do get out there and do what they can. Firstly, you have to find out that what the farm is doing is illegal, then the whole opperation of actually stopping the cruelty of the animals on the farm is a whole different set of procedures (if done legally). That can be just as difficult when there aren't an exceptional amount of people willing to help you in this cause as it is. Anyway, many vegetarians do their part any way they can, even if that is just not eating meat collectively to put a small dent in the meat producers' pockets. Gotta start somewhere By killing it quickly, and allowing it to fully die before cutting it up and/or scalding the feathers off of it. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen- even though it is against federal law for such horrible things to be done, the laws are not enforced, and many meat companies commit these atrocities on a regular basis to speed up processing. Some ranchers will also raise animals in areas which are too small for them, in order to increase their stock for sale. There are many things which unfortunately happen to farm animals, because it makes meat cheaper, and most people are ignorant of it happening at all, and many who do know are not willing to put their money where their mouth is and pay a little extra to cover the costs of meeting those animals' needs. Many people also do not have access to products produced by humane farms because so few are willing to pay for them that they are not very economically feasible for the farmers, and so they are rarely available. But there is a proper way to kill an animal, and believe me- there are things worse than death. A list of Whole Food's standards for meat production can be found here. I only buy meat from Whole Foods these days, in order to support them and their suppliers in the goal of strengthening these kinds of standards for all meat suppliers. On the other hand, not eating meat at all does nothing to help the animal's plight. It is, literally, a non-vote. You said that some folks who are vegetarians will also do things to address the situation- and so do people who are meat eaters. Meat-eaters, however, gain additional clout in this area because meat companies are more likely to listen to potential clients than to some random person who won't buy their meat even if they change their ways anyway. So by giving up meat, vegetarians give up a very important voice on the subject. If you just don't want meat, then fine, but it is preposterous to claim that vegetarianism does anything to help the animals. Do you think that the animals would really care whether or not you specifically eat them, after they've been tortured? Vegetarianism might make the vegetarian feel better about him or herself, but it does not save the animal. If the animals were conscious of their options, on the other hand- to be raised in a humane facility or an inhumane one- I think they'd go with the humane one every time. And so I'm working to make those kinds of facilities a more wide-spread reality. You say that you would rather simply stop eating animals. Have you ever thought about what would happen to these animals if we were to stop eating them? Maybe you wouldn't care, but millions of farm animals would be displaced. With no where to go, they'd either starve to death, be picked apart by other animals, or more likely they would simply be destroyed and their meat left to rot. Entire species would go extinct, because the only places that they do live are on farms. These animals have become a part of our community, and they can not survive without us. We have a responsibility to take care of them properly, and that does not include simply getting rid of them. So not only is a complete abstinence from meat a violation of natural order, and an unhealthy choice for us, it is also an unhealthy choice for these animals. That is the simple and practical truth of the matter. I don't have a problem with vegetarianism per se, but please do not tell me that you are being "moral" by doing so. It's simply a matter of personal taste. If you want to know the full extent of the horrible things which can happen to farm animals when they are not in a place which supports humane practices, then check this petition (and please send a letter in to support it). Caution- it is very graphic and disturbing. Then, you can check this website to look for humane products in your area. Only by buying these products can we hope to show the farmers that there is a market for humanely processed foods, that it is possible for them to change their ways and still survive. This list will also give you a range of options for cosmetic items which are not tested on animals, as well.
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:33 am
WebenBanu The topic of discussion in this thread was people saying that vegetarianism and Paganism go hand in hand, and that eating meat is a violation of the Rede. I'm also extending it to cover folks who cite their vegetarianism as a moral choice and accuse people who eat meat of being immoral. I don't have any problem with people who just don't eat meat because they don't want to- I won't cram food down somebody's throat if they don't like the taste. Especially not if I'd like to eat it, myself.^_~ Plants do, in fact, react to adverse situations. They make very high-pitched screaming sounds when dying of thirst, or when someone approaches them with pruning sheers- these sounds are too high to be detected by our ears, but they have been measured. They have also been demonstrated to grow or wilt slowly away from people who have recently traumatized them or another member of their species. It's a slow process, so most people don't notice it unless they're using instruments to measure it, but it's as fast as they can move. Just because you don't see this, and can't hear what they're doing, doesn't mean that they're just sitting around saying "Eat Me." Actually, people are suggesting that Mother Nature is in violation of the Rede, because they are saying that eating meat is against the Rede, and Mother Nature is the one who designed us (and other predators) to eat meat in the first place. And yes, I am saying that if you went to a God of Hunting and told him that hunting was evil, and therefore he was bad and immoral and should just be wiped off the face of the planet, he would be upset. Or do you think he'd just be fine with that?^_^ The way you put words in my mouth in astonishing; a real talent, no doubt. However, I've said again and again that I don't claim to be any more moral than any other person. I just try to do my best to follow the rede the way I see most fit. The fact that plants tend to lean away from people who hurt them don't make them non-givers. That just means they're alive, like I already told you. They are still givers and knowledged of things you wouldn't believe! No one would doubt that. I never said that carnivoires eating animals was wrong. That's Mother Nature and I'll cherish Her till the day I die. I just think humans have a choice to be herbivoires, carnivoires, or omnivoires. My choice is to be a herbivoires because that is how I feel I should live and that is just for me and no one else to decide, just as I would never tell you to stop eating meat. Maybe I should underline that because you really seem to think I think I'm more moral than you and want to push everything I believe onto you rofl
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:06 am
WebenBanu Atma311 How does one... humanely... kill an animal? I'm just curious. Anyway, like I said, many people do get out there and do what they can. Firstly, you have to find out that what the farm is doing is illegal, then the whole opperation of actually stopping the cruelty of the animals on the farm is a whole different set of procedures (if done legally). That can be just as difficult when there aren't an exceptional amount of people willing to help you in this cause as it is. Anyway, many vegetarians do their part any way they can, even if that is just not eating meat collectively to put a small dent in the meat producers' pockets. Gotta start somewhere By killing it quickly, and allowing it to fully die before cutting it up and/or scalding the feathers off of it. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen- even though it is against federal law for such horrible things to be done, the laws are not enforced, and many meat companies commit these atrocities on a regular basis to speed up processing. Some ranchers will also raise animals in areas which are too small for them, in order to increase their stock for sale. There are many things which unfortunately happen to farm animals, because it makes meat cheaper, and most people are ignorant of it happening at all, and many who do know are not willing to put their money where their mouth is and pay a little extra to cover the costs of meeting those animals' needs. Many people also do not have access to products produced by humane farms because so few are willing to pay for them that they are not very economically feasible for the farmers, and so they are rarely available. But there is a proper way to kill an animal, and believe me- there are things worse than death. A list of Whole Food's standards for meat production can be found here. I only buy meat from Whole Foods these days, in order to support them and their suppliers in the goal of strengthening these kinds of standards for all meat suppliers. On the other hand, not eating meat at all does nothing to help the animal's plight. It is, literally, a non-vote. You said that some folks who are vegetarians will also do things to address the situation- and so do people who are meat eaters. Meat-eaters, however, gain additional clout in this area because meat companies are more likely to listen to potential clients than to some random person who won't buy their meat even if they change their ways anyway. So by giving up meat, vegetarians give up a very important voice on the subject. If you just don't want meat, then fine, but it is preposterous to claim that vegetarianism does anything to help the animals. Do you think that the animals would really care whether or not you specifically eat them, after they've been tortured? Vegetarianism might make the vegetarian feel better about him or herself, but it does not save the animal. If the animals were conscious of their options, on the other hand- to be raised in a humane facility or an inhumane one- I think they'd go with the humane one every time. And so I'm working to make those kinds of facilities a more wide-spread reality. You say that you would rather simply stop eating animals. Have you ever thought about what would happen to these animals if we were to stop eating them? Maybe you wouldn't care, but millions of farm animals would be displaced. With no where to go, they'd either starve to death, be picked apart by other animals, or more likely they would simply be destroyed and their meat left to rot. Entire species would go extinct, because the only places that they do live are on farms. These animals have become a part of our community, and they can not survive without us. We have a responsibility to take care of them properly, and that does not include simply getting rid of them. So not only is a complete abstinence from meat a violation of natural order, and an unhealthy choice for us, it is also an unhealthy choice for these animals. That is the simple and practical truth of the matter. I don't have a problem with vegetarianism per se, but please do not tell me that you are being "moral" by doing so. It's simply a matter of personal taste. If you want to know the full extent of the horrible things which can happen to farm animals when they are not in a place which supports humane practices, then check this petition (and please send a letter in to support it). Caution- it is very graphic and disturbing. Then, you can check this website to look for humane products in your area. Only by buying these products can we hope to show the farmers that there is a market for humanely processed foods, that it is possible for them to change their ways and still survive. This list will also give you a range of options for cosmetic items which are not tested on animals, as well. So... let me get this straight... You're saying if I truly cared about animals... I would eat them? sweatdrop sweatdrop sweatdrop sweatdrop sweatdrop sweatdrop sweatdrop The logic... it's flawless xd You DO know that animals will get murdered either way, right? The thing I don't quite understand is that if people are really just animals, and it's (apparently) okay to kill animals, and we have a surplus or people as it is... well... the answer seems simple enough. Oh wait... that's wrong. Why? Because humans can think and feel. Wait... animals can too. So... humans are better because... we can make big weapons to kill stuff with quickly? Big plus for us, I guess wink [/dripping wet sarcasm of doooooooom] Anyway, more animals will get killed if a vegetarian starts to eat meat. This creates an excess of meat, more animals will be left to die and rot than there are now, and more inhumane places for animals will be spawned. It's simple supply and demand. When demand goes up, so does supply. When people aren't eating meat, the producers don't waste money on animals for that percent of the population. Though they may still have a surplus, they aren't going to get enough to feed the whole population because the whole population doesn't eat meat.
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:28 am
Bruce the Shark Fish are friends, not food!
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:42 pm
Hey, hey, hey, none of these negative word-sandwhiches, guys! I will lock and/or delete the topic if this continues! We are each subject to our own perspectives of how to handle a matter; we may even evaluate each other's sides. But this 'you' thing has got to stop. I don't care if the parties well researched or not, or whether its a passionate subject: we all have the ability to civily discuss with one another and not bruise anyone's feelings.
In fact, both of you are right about a lot of things, like production: while production and poor treatment does continue since their is a fairly large market for meat, vegetarism and veganism has brought down some of the demand, and thus production. By how much, I don't know, but a little bit can go a long way.
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:14 pm
Actually, I haven't put any words into your mouth- I've simply responded to the ones you gave me. I was not accusing you of pushing your beliefs onto anyone else, but since you seemed to be taking this personally and insisted that you were not making a moral issue out of this, I simply took the time to remind you that this discussion is about people who are. The amount of offense that you've taken to this, however, leads me to suspect that you do not quite believe your own protestations of innocence, and I have been led to respond to your increasingly personal claims and accusations.
It was really funny that you brought up cannibalism, though, because my views on that subject are rather non-traditional. But that's neither here nor there- we're discussing humane treatment of non-human species (and ostensibly the way that it ties into Pagan religion), the humans are already better off in most modern nations- so we'd best save that discussion for the M&R forum, or at least a separate thread.^_^
I've never claimed that plants weren't alive- that's kind of my point, actually. Plants are alive, and have feelings and a right to live just as much as anything else. It irritates me when vegetarians take the stance that it's OK to kill plants because, somehow, they don't count, and that has been my point along those lines. You've conveniently decided that plants are "givers," seemingly because they don't pull their limbs away from us when we cut them. I'm simply pointing out that that is not quite true.
As I've said several times already, I've no problem with vegetarianism per se. It simply is not a moral decision- it does not benefit the animals, who should be our prime concern in matters of morality. As you yourself said, they will die any way we look at the issue. In fact, whether we're talking about animals raised on farms or other species out in the wild, they will still die. You can not prevent death simply by wishing it. The important thing, then, becomes a matter of how they live and how they die. Supporting farms which have chosen humane farming and processing standards supports a safe, secure, and humane existence for these animals. Purchasing meats indiscriminately supports things remaining as they are. Giving up meat entirely removes your personal involvement in the issue, but does nothing for the animals. I'm sorry that the truth is so shocking or difficult to accept, but it is a simple fact.
I appreciate your sentiments, for what it's worth. And I'm offering this advice for people who want to actively involve themselves for the sake of these animals' humane treatment. I personally don't feel that it is an issue on which I could afford not to take a stand- but I do understand that it can be difficult for people to find humane alternatives. That's why I offered the Certified Humane website, as a good place to start- not all stores are registered there, but some are. It gives hope that such things exist, and raises the probability of your finding one- although if you don't find one registered in your area, it doesn't mean that they aren't there. I also know very well that it's more expensive to do things the right way- believe me, I'm not exactly rich. I started out as a poor college student, and all I could afford to do was to buy a package of organic carrots every now and then as a snack. But I did that, whenever I could, and I have gradually increased my support of environmentally responsible products each time I've received a pay raise. I know that many others will do the same, as they gain the means to do so. Our responsibility to contribute to these causes lies in direct proportion with our honest ability to do so. The important thing is to do what you can do at this point, not burn yourself out, and increase your involvement as your available resources grow.
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:45 pm
Jameta In fact, both of you are right about a lot of things, like production: while production and poor treatment does continue since their is a fairly large market for meat Not quite, actually- poor treatment doesn't continue because there is a large market for meat, but because there is a large market for cheap meat despite the additional cost in cruelty. Like anything else, the production of meat provides an opportunity for abuse. This kind of abuse can not be addressed simply by removing all temptation- the only way to do that would be to sterilize this planet and turn it into a lifeless rock. It instead calls for appropriate action- humane as opposed to inhumane treatment of other living things, for example. For the most part, the vegetarian movement exists in over-supplied nations such as our own- because these are the places where people have the option of being picky about what they eat. However, these nations also have chronic overconsumption. Vegetarians' not buying meat may leave slightly more meat in the market. The natural economic response to this is to lower the prices, however, so that the product is still sold and the meat-eating majority of the population simply consumes even more meat. I can only see one way in which this would actually have an effect on the production of meat- and that is that the ranchers would be able to sell their meat for less, and therefore would need to produce more meat to compensate for that monetary loss. Which, of course, translates into more crowded living conditions for the animals they raise, and further- perhaps even more aggravated- use of less humane "time-saving" processing tactics. But I am, of course, open to civil discussion on this topic.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:58 pm
Banu, while I could point out specific examples of putting words in others mouths, it would be incredibly distasteful. In example, though, the usage of phrases like "you're saying..." and writing something that isn't a quote, but rather a varied interpretation or summary of what was said, is inappropriate in this sort of circumstance. Right now, I am seeing twisting of words, and its making me as uncomfortable as watching political commercials. If this discussion is to continue, all such actions by all persons needs to stop. I also strongly recommend that the participants edit their posts to be more appropriate.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:00 pm
Atma311 The fact that plants tend to lean away from people who hurt them don't make them non-givers. That just means they're alive, like I already told you. They are still givers and knowledged of things you wouldn't believe! No one would doubt that.
That's also a point that I alluded to previously, in that it's very common in arguments and debates such as this in regards to the "Harm Ye None" aspect of the Reede that points such as this are left out. Science has proven that it causes "harm" to the plants to harvest them. It again seems to fall back on animals having a face and voices that can be heard, where as plants do not. As a sort of rhetorical question: Where does it become appropriate to pick and chose on a case by case basis validating information for a belief system?
There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian. Nor is there necessarily anything wrong with applying that to the Reede. However, it breeds ignorance, over defensiveness and biggotry in some people when they're so selective. And the morality issue is pushed; I've read through books and websites that explicitly state that in order to be Pagan, one must be vegetarian and reference it to an individualistic interpretation of the Reede. It also leads to blanket statements, such as the one quoted at the beginning of this thread, which colours all Pagans in a light they don't all appreciate. Blanket statements, like misinformation, can be dangerous.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:36 pm
Jameta Banu, while I could point out specific examples of putting words in others mouths, it would be incredibly distasteful. In example, though, the usage of phrases like "you're saying..." and writing something that isn't a quote, but rather a varied interpretation or summary of what was said, is inappropriate in this sort of circumstance. Right now, I am seeing twisting of words, and its making me as uncomfortable as watching political commercials. If this discussion is to continue, all such actions by all persons needs to stop. I also strongly recommend that the participants edit their posts to be more appropriate.
The intention of this thread was never to point fingers directly at any one individual, however people have chosen to respond. Rather it was intended to examin a trend among a growing group of people. It's a sensative subject, I realize this, but I believe that objectivity in regards to one's beliefs is going to be key in this discussion going anywhere.
We need to step away from saying "I never said that" in responce to a general statement; no one is making accusations here and putting words into people's mouths in that sort of a context leads to more of the same.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:01 pm
In respect for Jameta's wishes, I'll stop arguing with WebenBanu. I had mentioend earlier that I have a sharp tongue when I'm feelign defensive and I apologized for it. I didn't mean to start a big thing sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:46 am
eek Wow, I think when I left 6 months ago, an exact copy of this argument was going on...LOL
Life feeds life, it's all a part of the Circle. Every single life form has different metabolic needs, every within the same species. That's why there are vegetarians, vegans, carnivorous omnivores (Like I used to be...L), carnivores, scavengers, parasites, etc.
I don't condone the lesser treatment of animals (such as inhumane slaughter, immoral skinning practices, etc., but not all places are like that. Overpopulation by humans has caused us as a whole to mass produce animal product. Most native cultures celebrated when a hunting party would come back successful; a celebration would follow in honor of the deceased animal, and every part of the animal used, with thanks to the spirit of that animal.
If it were still held with that amount of reverance, would it seem as big of a issue? I feel that it wouldn't. 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:08 pm
elf_witch Wow, I had no idea this was that much of an issue! I'm a vegetarian, and it never even occurred to me to relate that to Paganism. I certainly would never dream of forcing my beliefs or habits on anyone else; that would be entirely disrespectful and I hate when it is done to me. Same here. I didn't become Vegetarian because I'm Pagan, I simply don't enjoy meat. I had no idea this was an issue. blaugh
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:53 pm
I'm a pagan, and I love meat. I don't hunt, because I don't NEED to in order to survice, but I has blessed with both molars AND canines, and I intend to use both. Te day I see a hawk turn down a fresh mouse (And yes, I have been there many a time. Wildlife rehab heart ) I will give up meat. But until my non-human siblings do, I'm not gonna. Of course, I also don't follow the 'harm none' rule quite so much as others.
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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:40 am
This might not be on topic, I have no idea.. But ..... By not eating a balanced diet , you are indeed harming yourself. I think eating what you body truely needs to be healthy is sacred, and applies better to the "harm none" because it includes your self. PLus, if they want to go further with animals being living creatures. Plants are living too. Now they grow, they eat and they reject by products that they don't need. If you ever have paid attention in science class and learned about PHOTOSYNTHESIS ... I will give you a nice site for that. http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html
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