Patrons: who chooses whom?

[Sanguina Cruenta]

The word "patron" itself would make more sense to the Romans, because of the Patron-client relationship which was an aspect of Roman society.

In Asatru, you have people who are "friend of Thor" and so on. I forget the Norse term for it though. Just not coming to mind at present.

Different pantheons have different sorts of relationships with humans, and I think that would influence the sort of expectations and relationships involved in a "patronage" sort of thing.  

[havenne17]

Violet Song jat Shariff

What recon-esque organization were you a member of?

I don't think I've come across any that have a patron deity as an expectation. From what I've learned so far, (for Asatru anyways) having a patron doesn't have a huge amount of historical basis as the gods were more like family, older siblings even, so to have a patron was kind of like choosing a favorite brother or sister. Now, that isn't to say that people who do have patrons are "less recon-y" of course.

Please excuse me if I don't say. I have found that admitting I am a former member of "X" gets me in trouble with current members of "X" - they are study oriented, given to discussion and....well, if I can venture a value judgment, argumentative.
I'm not cut out to approach spiritual practice while, at the same time, dealing with hierarchy and lots of structure for its own sake (in my NSHO). They are better off without me, lol!
To paraphrase another poster, perhaps 'patron' is the wrong word or not quite the right concept for the relationship some of us seem to have.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

What's wrong with study and discussion? neutral  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Sanguina Cruenta

The word "patron" itself would make more sense to the Romans, because of the Patron-client relationship which was an aspect of Roman society.

In Asatru, you have people who are "friend of Thor" and so on. I forget the Norse term for it though. Just not coming to mind at present.

Different pantheons have different sorts of relationships with humans, and I think that would influence the sort of expectations and relationships involved in a "patronage" sort of thing.

i don't think it is the wrong thing to say, you still knew what it ment, and just because it may be called something else to you doesn't mean that it is wrong.

if it were wrong you woould have posted something along the lines of "what is a parton??" but in a few more words than that.  

[havenne17]

Sanguina Cruenta

What's wrong with study and discussion? neutral

In and of themselves, nothing. It depends on what you do with them. LOL, in walking life I'm a scientist so I guess I've done at least my share.

It puzzles me terribly that people would study and talk and.....nothing else. Is there nothing more?  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

Sanguina Cruenta

The word "patron" itself would make more sense to the Romans, because of the Patron-client relationship which was an aspect of Roman society.

In Asatru, you have people who are "friend of Thor" and so on. I forget the Norse term for it though. Just not coming to mind at present.

Different pantheons have different sorts of relationships with humans, and I think that would influence the sort of expectations and relationships involved in a "patronage" sort of thing.

i don't think it is the wrong thing to say, you still knew what it ment, and just because it may be called something else to you doesn't mean that it is wrong.

if it were wrong you woould have posted something along the lines of "what is a parton??" but in a few more words than that.

Chill.
She was pointing out the nuances of language neutral
She's not saying "patron" is wrong really. She is explaining that for a different group of gods, the relationship is viewed a bit differently. She never said it was wrong. She never said that the Nordic perspective on the patron-worshiper relationship was more correct.

Havenne: Ah I see. I'm not affiliated with any organization at the moment, but I do think once I have a bit more disposable income I'd like to join The Troth 3nodding . I'd love to be able to connect with other Asatruar.  

[havenne17]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Ah I see. I'm not affiliated with any organization at the moment, but I do think once I have a bit more disposable income I'd like to join The Troth 3nodding . I'd love to be able to connect with other Asatruar.

I wouldn't want to dissuade anyone from joining a pagan group which has grown into an 'organization' if that is the experience that will support their preferences for structure in their spiritual path. My one circle member who was thoroughly Asatruar wasn't the 'joining from afar' type, needing personal ritual rather than guided study - he looked into joinin the Troth. That said, I guess I should point out that the umbrella organization may not be able to guide you towards a local group. But who knows, groups come and go.
With the Troth, at least, Kveldulf Gundarsson's works have now been gathered into readily-purchasable books that are in print (that is, available from Amazon) rather than being rarities you need to scout Ebay for and bid highly to obtain. You have lore, both modern and ancient, to support your practice.

We seem to be moving away from the original premise of the thread just as I was thinking about mentioning 'intercession' as a concept to consider alongside patronage relationships.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

havenne17

Violet Song jat Shariff

Ah I see. I'm not affiliated with any organization at the moment, but I do think once I have a bit more disposable income I'd like to join The Troth 3nodding . I'd love to be able to connect with other Asatruar.

I wouldn't want to dissuade anyone from joining a pagan group which has grown into an 'organization' if that is the experience that will support their preferences for structure in their spiritual path. My one circle member who was thoroughly Asatruar wasn't the 'joining from afar' type, needing personal ritual rather than guided study - he looked into joinin the Troth. That said, I guess I should point out that the umbrella organization may not be able to guide you towards a local group. But who knows, groups come and go.

Well, they do have Troth Moot every year. And the membership includes a subscription to Idunna, their magazine publication which I would imagine has a fair listing of Kindreds already formed or trying to form.

Quote:

With the Troth, at least, Kveldulf Gundarsson's works have now been gathered into readily-purchasable books that are in print (that is, available from Amazon) rather than being rarities you need to scout Ebay for and bid highly to obtain. You have lore, both modern and ancient, to support your practice.

You mean the Troth books, volume 1 and 2?
I think those are out of print right now and each volume is going for about $25 a pop. Which isn't bad really when you compare that to the out-of-print works of H.R. Ellis.

Quote:

We seem to be moving away from the original premise of the thread just as I was thinking about mentioning 'intercession' as a concept to consider alongside patronage relationships.

True, but the idea that an organization had an emphasis on a person needing a patron deity was interesting to me. I mean, so long as a person in question was willing to accept the responsibility of being a liar and possibly misrepresenting a god, what would stop him/her from telling that organization "Oh yea my patron is Odinn/Thorr/Freyr/Frigg/etc..."?  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Violet Song jat Shariff

xXrainbowrazorsXx

Sanguina Cruenta

The word "patron" itself would make more sense to the Romans, because of the Patron-client relationship which was an aspect of Roman society.

In Asatru, you have people who are "friend of Thor" and so on. I forget the Norse term for it though. Just not coming to mind at present.

Different pantheons have different sorts of relationships with humans, and I think that would influence the sort of expectations and relationships involved in a "patronage" sort of thing.

i don't think it is the wrong thing to say, you still knew what it ment, and just because it may be called something else to you doesn't mean that it is wrong.

if it were wrong you woould have posted something along the lines of "what is a parton??" but in a few more words than that.

Chill.
She was pointing out the nuances of language neutral
She's not saying "patron" is wrong really. She is explaining that for a different group of gods, the relationship is viewed a bit differently. She never said it was wrong. She never said that the Nordic perspective on the patron-worshiper relationship was more correct.

Havenne: Ah I see. I'm not affiliated with any organization at the moment, but I do think once I have a bit more disposable income I'd like to join The Troth 3nodding . I'd love to be able to connect with other Asatruar.

soz if a came accross angery i didn't meant to  

[havenne17]

Violet Song jat Shariff

True, but the idea that an organization had an emphasis on a person needing a patron deity was interesting to me. I mean, so long as a person in question was willing to accept the responsibility of being a liar and possibly misrepresenting a god, what would stop him/her from telling that organization "Oh yea my patron is Odinn/Thorr/Freyr/Frigg/etc..."?

What would stop them? Nothing, in the short term.
In the long term, judging from the study programs I have seen patronage elements in, someone might run into trouble trying to explain how they connected with their chosen deity. I suppose it is one thing to state that you have a Patron God but quite another to write an essay about how you came to know your Patron and give details of your relationship with them.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

havenne17

Violet Song jat Shariff

True, but the idea that an organization had an emphasis on a person needing a patron deity was interesting to me. I mean, so long as a person in question was willing to accept the responsibility of being a liar and possibly misrepresenting a god, what would stop him/her from telling that organization "Oh yea my patron is Odinn/Thorr/Freyr/Frigg/etc..."?

What would stop them? Nothing, in the short term.
In the long term, judging from the study programs I have seen patronage elements in, someone might run into trouble trying to explain how they connected with their chosen deity. I suppose it is one thing to state that you have a Patron God but quite another to write an essay about how you came to know your Patron and give details of your relationship with them.

Vi was more enquiring what manner of recon group would expect someone to have a patron deity to that degree. We find this intriguing and wish to know more about this group.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

havenne17

Violet Song jat Shariff

True, but the idea that an organization had an emphasis on a person needing a patron deity was interesting to me. I mean, so long as a person in question was willing to accept the responsibility of being a liar and possibly misrepresenting a god, what would stop him/her from telling that organization "Oh yea my patron is Odinn/Thorr/Freyr/Frigg/etc..."?

What would stop them? Nothing, in the short term.
In the long term, judging from the study programs I have seen patronage elements in, someone might run into trouble trying to explain how they connected with their chosen deity. I suppose it is one thing to state that you have a Patron God but quite another to write an essay about how you came to know your Patron and give details of your relationship with them.

In all honesty, I don't think it'd be hard to fudge an essay like that. All someone would have to do is put some twists on UPG and there ya go.  

[havenne17]

Sanguina Cruenta

Vi was more enquiring what manner of recon group would expect someone to have a patron deity to that degree. We find this intriguing and wish to know more about this group.

I am only comfortable speaking of those instances where the details of the group's study/initiate program is available online. ADF, the Druidry group, has patronage in their 'dedicant' program. It's on their website. The other instance I have seen of patronage in a 'recon' group was in a syllabus that wasn't available to the general public and I cannot speak to its currency. Bear in mind that some groups also maintain that they are 'mystery' traditions and you don't find out details until you have entered their program; I can think of an organization which fits this description but am not sure if the patronage practices of their members, which I have witnessed, have their basis in their membership in this mystery tradition.

Is anyone here a reconstructionist?  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

havenne17

Is anyone here a reconstructionist?

*raises hand*  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

havenne17

I am only comfortable speaking of those instances where the details of the group's study/initiate program is available online. ADF, the Druidry group, has patronage in their 'dedicant' program. It's on their website. The other instance I have seen of patronage in a 'recon' group was in a syllabus that wasn't available to the general public and I cannot speak to its currency. Bear in mind that some groups also maintain that they are 'mystery' traditions and you don't find out details until you have entered their program; I can think of an organization which fits this description but am not sure if the patronage practices of their members, which I have witnessed, have their basis in their membership in this mystery tradition.

Is anyone here a reconstructionist?

ADF isn't recon, though. *shrug* And they've changed that aspect of their Dedicancy program, because people kept complaining about it. It was a ridiculous requirement, it must be said.

I have my own issues with ADF. "Scholarly" my a**. CITATIONS, BITCHES. I DEMAND CITATIONS FOR YOUR BASELESS CLAIMS. "Most European cultures" my a**. Back that s**t up with some examples and sources.


My Norse practice is mostly Recon.