clown cars, VAGINAS, and quiverfull [video]

[Kuchen Fairy]

village midget

Silver Screen

Religion plays a big role in some peoples' choice to have a big family. But it is still their choice so I don't see why this is an issue. Religion is not the only factor in this instance by far.

Those points aside, I think there is something about religious women that needs to be addressed here. Women who choose to have big families within their church are not being "used" or "abused" or "controlled." They feel it is their duty or they feel it is best for them, and they are capable of free will, so there is no manipulation going on here. To say that women with large families are "slaves" to their religion is absolutely ludicrous and extremely disrespectful, because you are essentially telling them that they do not have the power of free will, which renders them less than human.
I also do not see how having many children renders one "dependent." Women with large families can also have identities that span beyond the home.

i beg to differ, the Sawnsons are quoted as having not wanted children when they got married. yes they are making their own decision and excercising their right in a free country, but what is influencing their decision making? how did this couple who were not interested in having children get to a point where they have an abnormally large family and intend on increasing it? their religion. this woman, Kelly Sawnson is not "less than human" as you put it, but rather she and her husband have been persuaded by a religious movement to completely change her outlook on life. i find that unsettling.

"The average family at their evangelical church has 8.5 kids. They are children who the Swansons hope will spread the message of Christ." (from the npr article)
it is obvious that the impetus to behave this way is coming directly from the church. it is unusual in this era to want to produce so many offspring, animal instincts and biology are no longer the governing force of our species, and the need for a growth in population is nonexistant. clearly the need these women feel is to further the doctrine of their church, and clearly it is their church and the quiverfull movement that is telling them that...which is manipulation. you don't have to be stupid or gullible to be manipulated it only takes an amount of trust...

silverscreen

Basically people should mind their own damned business about other peoples' lives. This is unrealistic though because order is required for a civilised society, which so many of us are bound to maintain, and for order to happen you need rules and regulations, which are always nosy.

unless the people who's lives are being scrutinised have willingly made their private life public. celebrities are an easy example of what i mean, and quiverfull is no different. joining a movement which speaks publically and aims to attract/convert as many people as possible is saying "look how i live" and "you should live like me"

Was it still not their choice to have children? If they did not agree with the notion that children are required to belong to their religion they could have left the denomination and found one that is similar but more accepting.  

[magmayoshi]

village midget

magmayoshi

Nancy Campbell cited in In Quiverfull Movement, Birth Control is Shunned, Barbara Bradley Hagerty.

"The womb is such a powerful weapon; it's a weapon against the enemy"...

It's so true in many ways but who the ******** actually says it openly. gonk

what really freaks me out is the word 'enemy' - who is the enemy?

Anyone who isn't them or is them but not pumping out 50 babies at any given moment.  

[black_wing_angel]

village midget

magmayoshi

Nancy Campbell cited in In Quiverfull Movement, Birth Control is Shunned, Barbara Bradley Hagerty.

"The womb is such a powerful weapon; it's a weapon against the enemy"...

It's so true in many ways but who the ******** actually says it openly. gonk

what really freaks me out is the word 'enemy' - who is the enemy?

Probably "men".  

[Archaic Thought]

magmayoshi

village midget

magmayoshi

Nancy Campbell cited in In Quiverfull Movement, Birth Control is Shunned, Barbara Bradley Hagerty.

"The womb is such a powerful weapon; it's a weapon against the enemy"...

It's so true in many ways but who the ******** actually says it openly. gonk

what really freaks me out is the word 'enemy' - who is the enemy?

Anyone who isn't them or is them but not pumping out 50 babies at any given moment.

Nothing says fanatics like meat shields. Ah...the modern world...  

[village midget]

Silver Screen

Was it still not their choice to have children? If they did not agree with the notion that children are required to belong to their religion they could have left the denomination and found one that is similar but more accepting.

i think that's possibly a naiive view of things. not many people change denominations , because of the indoctrination that their denomination's way is the right way, or the only 'true' way. that is how so many divisions occur in the first place and it's the way that cults survive.

'choice' is a loaded word in this context, yes they chose to have kids but it is not straightforward free choice. coersion, or strong influence are at work imo.  

[village midget]

@ magmayoshi, angel and mr combine - you fools! rofl  

[magmayoshi]

village midget

@ magmayoshi, angel and mr combine - you fools! rofl

Your point?  

[Kuchen Fairy]

village midget

Silver Screen

Was it still not their choice to have children? If they did not agree with the notion that children are required to belong to their religion they could have left the denomination and found one that is similar but more accepting.

i think that's possibly a naiive view of things. not many people change denominations , because of the indoctrination that their denomination's way is the right way, or the only 'true' way. that is how so many divisions occur in the first place and it's the way that cults survive.

'choice' is a loaded word in this context, yes they chose to have kids but it is not straightforward free choice. coersion, or strong influence are at work imo.

Ludicrous. If one does not wish to have children then they do not fully believe in their denomination, which means it is subject to change. Millions of people change their denomination or entire religion in general all the time. Some people do it several times throughout their lifetimes. I'm a prime example.
Coersion doesn't signify a loss of choice. It's still ultimately their decision. Again, it seems like you're thinking of these people as incapable of making their own decisions.  

[village midget]

Silver Screen

Ludicrous. If one does not wish to have children then they do not fully believe in their denomination, which means it is subject to change. Millions of people change their denomination or entire religion in general all the time. Some people do it several times throughout their lifetimes. I'm a prime example.
Coersion doesn't signify a loss of choice. It's still ultimately their decision. Again, it seems like you're thinking of these people as incapable of making their own decisions.

ok, i will accept that - dependant on geographical region/education/social freedom and denomination/religion - possibly millions of people may change denomination. i would be interested to know how many of these people are part of evangelical churches or jehovas witnesses or unificationists etc...

my point is far from ludicrous. if the couple married prior to be recruited by quiverfull and at that time expresed no desire to have children only to completely reverse this decision after some time in alliance with quiverfull, it demonstrates that something changed their minds. what i meant by your post possibly showing naiivety is that i am of the opinion that quiverfull was that changing force and that their choice to then have eight children was influenced by coercive evangelising.

look at psychological coersion

"Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff, a former ardent Quiverfull adherent, birth-mother of eleven children, and former editor of Gentle Spirit Magazine, argues that the Quiverfull movement is one "in which women and children are routinely and systematically subordinated and subjugated by the men in their lives - fathers, husbands, older sons, sons, pastors, elders, leaders - as a matter of biblical principle."[37] Seelhoff charges that Quiverful adherents "never talk about the victims of the movement, other than to distance themselves, to explain how it is that the victims are aberrations." [38][39]"
(from this wikipedia page)

quiverfull is clearly very evangelical in its approach and seem to push very dubious theorems as fact...following the link on their site about contraception i ended up with this apparently contraceptive pills cause abortion!

the movement actively encourages home schooling so as to avoid negative influence or criticism of their idealogy (never a good sign - consciously instructing parents to isolate quiverfull's future generations from any idea of other choices?) once in the movement the woman stays in the home, the husband has all the interaction with the outside world there is to have. any woman can be very easily manipulated if she is separated from conflicting ideas and information...just look at the 25% of married women in the uk who are beaten regularly by their spouses, they didn't start out as lacking in brains or education but the abuser removes all links to family friends and normality and proceeds to manipulate and coerce with emotional blackmail and mental cruelty.  

[Kuchen Fairy]

village midget

Silver Screen

Ludicrous. If one does not wish to have children then they do not fully believe in their denomination, which means it is subject to change. Millions of people change their denomination or entire religion in general all the time. Some people do it several times throughout their lifetimes. I'm a prime example.
Coersion doesn't signify a loss of choice. It's still ultimately their decision. Again, it seems like you're thinking of these people as incapable of making their own decisions.

ok, i will accept that - dependant on geographical region/education/social freedom and denomination/religion - possibly millions of people may change denomination. i would be interested to know how many of these people are part of evangelical churches or jehovas witnesses or unificationists etc...

my point is far from ludicrous. if the couple married prior to be recruited by quiverfull and at that time expresed no desire to have children only to completely reverse this decision after some time in alliance with quiverfull, it demonstrates that something changed their minds. what i meant by your post possibly showing naiivety is that i am of the opinion that quiverfull was that changing force and that their choice to then have eight children was influenced by coercive evangelising.

look at psychological coersion

"Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff, a former ardent Quiverfull adherent, birth-mother of eleven children, and former editor of Gentle Spirit Magazine, argues that the Quiverfull movement is one "in which women and children are routinely and systematically subordinated and subjugated by the men in their lives - fathers, husbands, older sons, sons, pastors, elders, leaders - as a matter of biblical principle."[37] Seelhoff charges that Quiverful adherents "never talk about the victims of the movement, other than to distance themselves, to explain how it is that the victims are aberrations." [38][39]"
(from this wikipedia page)

quiverfull is clearly very evangelical in its approach and seem to push very dubious theorems as fact...following the link on their site about contraception i ended up with this apparently contraceptive pills cause abortion!

the movement actively encourages home schooling so as to avoid negative influence or criticism of their idealogy (never a good sign - consciously instructing parents to isolate quiverfull's future generations from any idea of other choices?) once in the movement the woman stays in the home, the husband has all the interaction with the outside world there is to have. any woman can be very easily manipulated if she is separated from conflicting ideas and information...just look at the 25% of married women in the uk who are beaten regularly by their spouses, they didn't start out as lacking in brains or education but the abuser removes all links to family friends and normality and proceeds to manipulate and coerce with emotional blackmail and mental cruelty.

Being influenced and being forced are two different things. Somebody who joins Quiverfull has likely gone through a change in denomination or religious beliefs and with such a change also comes change in certain viewpoints. It's not uncommon for people to think they don't want children and then to decide later that they do, even if you think the cause is questionable. All in all it is still entirely their decision.

I'm not saying I agree with Quiverfull or their stances, but I fully support peoples' rights to have however many children they feel like having for whatever reason they deem fit in their lives.  

[village midget]

Silver Screen

Being influenced and being forced are two different things. .

not always  

[Kuchen Fairy]

village midget

Silver Screen

Being influenced and being forced are two different things. .

not always

That proves nothing. She was only influenced to have children. She was not forced.  

[village midget]

Silver Screen

village midget

Silver Screen

Being influenced and being forced are two different things. .

not always

That proves nothing. She was only influenced to have children. She was not forced.

it's not a free choice though, you must agree.