Capitalism or.Socialism

[Kuchen Fairy]

Kats Scratches

She burns like the sun, and I can't look away
Both are stupid. America is stupid. Your elections are stupid. Your legal system is stupid. You've got a black president, but I wish you luck for all the ******** good that's going to do you.

ALL HAIL AMERICA, BECAUSE THEY'RE CLEARLY THE ONLY COUNTRY OF CONSEQUENCE IN THE WORLD.

She'll burn our horizons, make no mistake.

Ad hominem will get you nowhere. wahmbulance  

[magmayoshi]

The Curse

Capitalism.

Socialism isn't even all that good of an idea. On paper, as well as in practice, it systematically discriminates against people based on their 'class', which is an arbitrary line marking economic success. I see it as being in the same field, if not quite as bad, as racism and sexism. In short, 'class jealousy'. To me, if you eliminate discrimination in social law (which is a great banner that the left tries to fly) you must match it with economic law (which they certainly do not fly). Taxing the rich by a greater amount than the poor is one thing, but taxing the rich until they join the poor is another entirely.

I would rather see class mobility, where success is earned and rewarded. Capitalism is the only system which brings it.

Socialism actually balances, class mobility with evening it out. Rewards for those who can earn a higher standard of living but not letting people starve on the street (as much).

Only COMMUNISTIC economic polices tax people till they have basically the same. Communism is far from socialism though.  

[The Curse]

magmayoshi

The Curse

Capitalism.

Socialism isn't even all that good of an idea. On paper, as well as in practice, it systematically discriminates against people based on their 'class', which is an arbitrary line marking economic success. I see it as being in the same field, if not quite as bad, as racism and sexism. In short, 'class jealousy'. To me, if you eliminate discrimination in social law (which is a great banner that the left tries to fly) you must match it with economic law (which they certainly do not fly). Taxing the rich by a greater amount than the poor is one thing, but taxing the rich until they join the poor is another entirely.

I would rather see class mobility, where success is earned and rewarded. Capitalism is the only system which brings it.

Socialism actually balances, class mobility with evening it out. Rewards for those who can earn a higher standard of living but not letting people starve on the street (as much).

Only COMMUNISTIC economic polices tax people till they have basically the same. Communism is far from socialism though.

The only sense it balances class mobility in, is that everyone is equally restricted from rising.

Safety net welfare is not socialist. Safety net welfare is protecting people from the poverty line, it's a humanitarian policy adhered too even by the most conservative of capitalist governments.

On the other hand, a socialist actively pulls the top down, to push the bottom up. Communism freezes class mobility, but socialism harms it.  

[Rimama]

Fresnel

Socialism is BETTER, but it just flat-out doesn't work. It requires HUMAN GOODNESS and DECENCY. See the problem here? People are selfish shits. Pure socialism just doesn't work in a society where everybody doesn't know everyone else. In a small town, it works great, but a nation? ******** that, man.

So true, I live in arguably one of the most Socialist nations of Earth, "Sweden", and I really despise the general attitudes many people have here about ideas of society, passivity against everything the government does (there is no direct action, only small scale protest), but above all the high taxes that give benefit to the lowest common denominator in society. Taxes aren't that bad if you're a lower income earner, it's around 30% there, but the more you study and devote yourself to a proffession, will matter little in regards to financial income, you'll still have a similar income to the bus driver, or the man who takes out the trash even if you've studied 12 years of medical school to become a surgeon. We are ultimately selfish to some extent, so we can't disregard monetary gain really, it does matter to nearly everyone, and I don't believe that there are a large amount of people who would do a job out of the sheer joy of it, many jobs in several sectors do become more exciting when money is a significant factor (working with it in the workplace, not in pay), a combination of the best of Capitalism and Socialism is fine and dandy but a world where socialism is the most prevalent one is not one I would want to live in, it promotes very much phoniness on account of people (at least it has in Sweden), such as the idea that humans are always STRICTLY equal, and if one dosen't adhere to that view, they're of course envied or not as "accepted I'll say" for daring to transcend the stupidity (imo at least).
I'll of course go more into depth of anyone desires of flaws at a social level for a socialist system, but I'll just say that I do not believe that pure socialism would work AT ALL, or at least a strong implementation of it, such as many parts of Scandinavia atm.

To me it seems like that Socialism completely disregard how humans act and think, it is not something that can be realistically implemented without the death of individualism and free thinking at the social level. Everyone is equal my a**.

My own experience of living in Sweden for 8 years...  

[Kuchen Fairy]

Rimama

Fresnel

Socialism is BETTER, but it just flat-out doesn't work. It requires HUMAN GOODNESS and DECENCY. See the problem here? People are selfish shits. Pure socialism just doesn't work in a society where everybody doesn't know everyone else. In a small town, it works great, but a nation? ******** that, man.

So true, I live in arguably one of the most Socialist nations of Earth, "Sweden", and I really despise the general attitudes many people have here about ideas of society, passivity against everything the government does (there is no direct action, only small scale protest), but above all the high taxes that give benefit to the lowest common denominator in society. Taxes aren't that bad if you're a lower income earner, it's around 30% there, but the more you study and devote yourself to a proffession, will matter little in regards to financial income, you'll still have a similar income to the bus driver, or the man who takes out the trash even if you've studied 12 years of medical school to become a surgeon. We are ultimately selfish to some extent, so we can't disregard monetary gain really, it does matter to nearly everyone, and I don't believe that there are a large amount of people who would do a job out of the sheer joy of it, many jobs in several sectors do become more exciting when money is a significant factor (working with it in the workplace, not in pay), a combination of the best of Capitalism and Socialism is fine and dandy but a world where socialism is the most prevalent one is not one I would want to live in, it promotes very much phoniness on account of people (at least it has in Sweden), such as the idea that humans are always STRICTLY equal, and if one dosen't adhere to that view, they're of course envied or not as "accepted I'll say" for daring to transcend the stupidity (imo at least).
I'll of course go more into depth of anyone desires of flaws at a social level for a socialist system, but I'll just say that I do not believe that pure socialism would work AT ALL, or at least a strong implementation of it, such as many parts of Scandinavia atm.

To me it seems like that Socialism completely disregard how humans act and think, it is not something that can be realistically implemented without the death of individualism and free thinking at the social level. Everyone is equal my a**.

My own experience of living in Sweden for 8 years...

Yes, I'm under the impression that socialism aims to strip away the identities of everyone as individuals. It seems that you aren't treated like a human being, but rather just a replaceable piece to a societal puzzle.
If you have to have equality by rendering everybody as the exact same, it's not worth doing. Groupthink is lame.  

[Rimama]

Silver Screen

Rimama

Fresnel

Socialism is BETTER, but it just flat-out doesn't work. It requires HUMAN GOODNESS and DECENCY. See the problem here? People are selfish shits. Pure socialism just doesn't work in a society where everybody doesn't know everyone else. In a small town, it works great, but a nation? ******** that, man.

So true, I live in arguably one of the most Socialist nations of Earth, "Sweden", and I really despise the general attitudes many people have here about ideas of society, passivity against everything the government does (there is no direct action, only small scale protest), but above all the high taxes that give benefit to the lowest common denominator in society. Taxes aren't that bad if you're a lower income earner, it's around 30% there, but the more you study and devote yourself to a proffession, will matter little in regards to financial income, you'll still have a similar income to the bus driver, or the man who takes out the trash even if you've studied 12 years of medical school to become a surgeon. We are ultimately selfish to some extent, so we can't disregard monetary gain really, it does matter to nearly everyone, and I don't believe that there are a large amount of people who would do a job out of the sheer joy of it, many jobs in several sectors do become more exciting when money is a significant factor (working with it in the workplace, not in pay), a combination of the best of Capitalism and Socialism is fine and dandy but a world where socialism is the most prevalent one is not one I would want to live in, it promotes very much phoniness on account of people (at least it has in Sweden), such as the idea that humans are always STRICTLY equal, and if one dosen't adhere to that view, they're of course envied or not as "accepted I'll say" for daring to transcend the stupidity (imo at least).
I'll of course go more into depth of anyone desires of flaws at a social level for a socialist system, but I'll just say that I do not believe that pure socialism would work AT ALL, or at least a strong implementation of it, such as many parts of Scandinavia atm.

To me it seems like that Socialism completely disregard how humans act and think, it is not something that can be realistically implemented without the death of individualism and free thinking at the social level. Everyone is equal my a**.

My own experience of living in Sweden for 8 years...

Yes, I'm under the impression that socialism aims to strip away the identities of everyone as individuals. It seems that you aren't treated like a human being, but rather just a replaceable piece to a societal puzzle.
If you have to have equality by rendering everybody as the exact same, it's not worth doing. Groupthink is lame.

Sums up what I was trying to express I'd say  

[Rimama]

Silver Screen

Rimama

Fresnel

Socialism is BETTER, but it just flat-out doesn't work. It requires HUMAN GOODNESS and DECENCY. See the problem here? People are selfish shits. Pure socialism just doesn't work in a society where everybody doesn't know everyone else. In a small town, it works great, but a nation? ******** that, man.

So true, I live in arguably one of the most Socialist nations of Earth, "Sweden", and I really despise the general attitudes many people have here about ideas of society, passivity against everything the government does (there is no direct action, only small scale protest), but above all the high taxes that give benefit to the lowest common denominator in society. Taxes aren't that bad if you're a lower income earner, it's around 30% there, but the more you study and devote yourself to a proffession, will matter little in regards to financial income, you'll still have a similar income to the bus driver, or the man who takes out the trash even if you've studied 12 years of medical school to become a surgeon. We are ultimately selfish to some extent, so we can't disregard monetary gain really, it does matter to nearly everyone, and I don't believe that there are a large amount of people who would do a job out of the sheer joy of it, many jobs in several sectors do become more exciting when money is a significant factor (working with it in the workplace, not in pay), a combination of the best of Capitalism and Socialism is fine and dandy but a world where socialism is the most prevalent one is not one I would want to live in, it promotes very much phoniness on account of people (at least it has in Sweden), such as the idea that humans are always STRICTLY equal, and if one dosen't adhere to that view, they're of course envied or not as "accepted I'll say" for daring to transcend the stupidity (imo at least).
I'll of course go more into depth of anyone desires of flaws at a social level for a socialist system, but I'll just say that I do not believe that pure socialism would work AT ALL, or at least a strong implementation of it, such as many parts of Scandinavia atm.

To me it seems like that Socialism completely disregard how humans act and think, it is not something that can be realistically implemented without the death of individualism and free thinking at the social level. Everyone is equal my a**.

My own experience of living in Sweden for 8 years...

Yes, I'm under the impression that socialism aims to strip away the identities of everyone as individuals. It seems that you aren't treated like a human being, but rather just a replaceable piece to a societal puzzle.
If you have to have equality by rendering everybody as the exact same, it's not worth doing. Groupthink is lame.

What I feel ought to be mentioned however is that this is purely on the societal level, while having other opinions in the own home is generally accepted, everyone, when communicating in public is supposed to have the "compliant" attitude, and as I said, differences in that are looked down upon.
This is of course quite lame since there is so much emphasis (especially in Swedish politics) upon society and ideals around it, and how we're supposed to be united yet there isn't the basics of debate which is fundamental in a democracy. The purpose, I'd say at least, of people who object to the "socialist" train of thought is to make people not act so passively when the government infringes personal rights or similar actions to increase its power when the circumstances very much do not require that (it almost never should either unless there are extreme circumstances, no terrorists are not that). To sum up: so much emphasis on an ideal society yet none of the fundaments of discussion, social interaction of debate which the first greek democracies practiced  

[Archaic Thought]

I tend to avoid either, however, if forced to pick the lesser of two evils, I would go with Capitalism. At least, with Capitalism, people can admit they're corrupt instead of with Socialism where they take advantage of the system. But really, what the world needs is an Enlightened Despot. That'll smooth things out.  

[magmayoshi]

mistercombine

But really, what the world needs is an Enlightened Despot. That'll smooth things out.

Good old tyranny of the wise, I always kinda liked it.

And when you think about it true democracy is dictatorship of the majority, a majority that's horribly biased and doesn't know wtf they want, who will later regret some or all of their decisions because they had one.  

[Archaic Thought]

magmayoshi

mistercombine

But really, what the world needs is an Enlightened Despot. That'll smooth things out.

Good old tyranny of the wise, I always kinda liked it.

And when you think about it true democracy is dictatorship of the majority, a majority that's horribly biased and doesn't know wtf they want, who will later regret some or all of their decisions because they had one.

Exactly, that's the main fault of Democracy. It's what the people want, and often times, not what's right.  

[Fresnel]

mistercombine

magmayoshi

mistercombine

But really, what the world needs is an Enlightened Despot. That'll smooth things out.

Good old tyranny of the wise, I always kinda liked it.

And when you think about it true democracy is dictatorship of the majority, a majority that's horribly biased and doesn't know wtf they want, who will later regret some or all of their decisions because they had one.

Exactly, that's the main fault of Democracy. It's what the people want, and often times, not what's right.

Democracy is what the people want, and the people are ******** IDIOTS.

Fact of life.  

[JettaKD]

There are plenty of countries in the world which actively practice socialism. They haven't exploded. Seriously, capitalism and socialism both have good merits, but neither is particularly better than the other in my opinion.  

[village midget]

Those links in the op are awful. Whoever wrote the one on socialism sounds like they are still entrenched in the cold war and trying hard not to shout commie bastards throughout it.

Magamayoshi, i think what you are describing in terms of communism might be better labelled utopia.

Curse, i see the complete opposite in socialism to what you described. Socialism (as a more moderate and "newer" form of communism) seeks to end discrimination between classes, to become a classless society. The discrimination you talk of, i suppose, could be one of socialisms paradoxical traits, but it is seen by those who support the ideals as positive discrimination and something which will be a short term measure until balance and equality are achieved.

For a nation to function there must be both capitalism and socialism. as Fresnel rightly pointed out, communism cannot work between large disparate groups of strangers, mainly because essentially socialism requires the prior consent of every individual before doing anything. but, individuals need to be able to compete for higher acheivements than their neighbours for society to progress. there must always be goals to reach.

Capitalism has some healthy aspects and some which are dispicable, as does socialism, compare the USA's ethics with China...one abuses the human rights of foreigners and one abuses the human rights of its own citizens. Globally you could say that they are finding a balance between two extremes with a sort of symbiotic relationship...the USA feeds China's wealth and China feeds the USA's consumerism.

There must be a little of each for any society to function happily, and i would even say that personally i would like to see the capitalism focussed on economics and the boardroom and socialism out in the street informing peoples day to day choices and conduct. You can be community spirited and retain your individuality.  

[Fresnel]

village midget

Socialism (as a more moderate and "newer" form of communism) seeks to end discrimination between classes, to become a classless society. The discrimination you talk of, i suppose, could be one of socialisms paradoxical traits, but it is seen by those who support the ideals as positive discrimination and something which will be a short term measure until balance and equality are achieved.

"I've been such a fool, Vassili. Man will always be a man. There is no new man. We tried so hard to create a society that was equal, where there'd be nothing to envy your neighbour. But there's always something to envy. A smile, a friendship, something you don't have and want to appropriate. In this world, even a Soviet one, there will always be rich and poor. Rich in gifts, poor in gifts. Rich in love, poor in love." - Commisar Danilov, Enemy at the Gates

Sure it's from a fictional movie, but damn did it ring true.  

[Rimama]

village midget

Those links in the op are awful. Whoever wrote the one on socialism sounds like they are still entrenched in the cold war and trying hard not to shout commie bastards throughout it.

Magamayoshi, i think what you are describing in terms of communism might be better labelled utopia.

Curse, i see the complete opposite in socialism to what you described. Socialism (as a more moderate and "newer" form of communism) seeks to end discrimination between classes, to become a classless society. The discrimination you talk of, i suppose, could be one of socialisms paradoxical traits, but it is seen by those who support the ideals as positive discrimination and something which will be a short term measure until balance and equality are achieved.

For a nation to function there must be both capitalism and socialism. as Fresnel rightly pointed out, communism cannot work between large disparate groups of strangers, mainly because essentially socialism requires the prior consent of every individual before doing anything. but, individuals need to be able to compete for higher acheivements than their neighbours for society to progress. there must always be goals to reach.

Capitalism has some healthy aspects and some which are dispicable, as does socialism, compare the USA's ethics with China...one abuses the human rights of foreigners and one abuses the human rights of its own citizens. Globally you could say that they are finding a balance between two extremes with a sort of symbiotic relationship...the USA feeds China's wealth and China feeds the USA's consumerism.

There must be a little of each for any society to function happily, and i would even say that personally i would like to see the capitalism focussed on economics and the boardroom and socialism out in the street informing peoples day to day choices and conduct. You can be community spirited and retain your individuality.

I think one of the points I was trying to get across was that a country can suffer quite heavily if there is an excess of any sort of system, but the greater of the two evils as I saw it, was Socialism, from living around ½ of my life in a Socialist country and the other ½ in relatively liberal countries. Also, while I do agree that political theory and genuine speculation shouldn't be disregarded, but I believe that people need to experience how badly Socialism can affect a country, which in this case was Sweden and my experiences and thoughts are of course recounted above so I don't like the idea of me being labelled as someone who screams COMMIES COMMIES and stuck in the cold war if you were referring to me.

There are a great amount of advantages to an economically liberal system, mainly due to the flexibility of being able to grow, which comes at the cost of being able to plunge similarly to how many economies have, but much of it originates from poor decisions from people at all levels of society. I believe that Capitalism is a viable system but has the clear pre-requirement that decisions made are rational, which may be why Socialism seems quite advocated but a clear problem is that most socialist economies have a hard time growing and may have employment rates that change very slowly or little at all in some cases, such as in France which is quite regulated where even in good economic times the unemployment rate would stay at 8% and hardly change (socioeconomic factors are of course debatable).