Silver Ravenwolf

[Nattfodd]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

ok so thank you guys for the opinions... wow....

ok well i have one of her books and i was looking at buying at least 2 others plus i borrowed one from a friend. the book i borrowed was TeenWitch and it was what got me Into wicca, besides my friend talking about it. i understand that you guys dont like how she lies and encourages lying against parents. you have also said that she doesnt know anything about Wicca and that her practices are faulty. however, i have another book Not by her that parallels with some of the practices she mentions pretty well... such as circle casting and sacred space creation.

so pretty much you guys have given me Ample evidence of her lies. my next question to you guys is exactly what Practices of hers do you not agree with? i feel that she has at least helped me to understand the basics... if she doesnt know anything about the more advanced things then i should Love to know before i waste more money

Circle casting as described by Ravenwolf is 'condensed' at best. The entire section is dumbed down compared to authors like Buckland (who is also not of the Wica, but does have a good bit of knowledge on CM and how it has affected Witchcraft & Wicca.)

The act of casting a circle is handed down from Ceremonial Magic traditions, something that Ravenwolf really would have no knowledge of, being more of a kitchen witch. (Ironically, this is probably why she throws salt on EVERYTHING.)

So if you're interested in the actual intricacies of circle casting in theory and practice, I would check out Magick in Theory and Practice, Buckland's Complete Guide to Witchcraft, and i'm sure even Cunningham has a better explanation than Ravenwolf.

The explanation on Sacred Space pales in comparison to Buckland's 'setting up your altar' as well. Buckland will give you a complete how-to on making or purchasing every single element of your workspace in wonderful detail.

The thing that really gets me is how things are misinterpreted -- like the Rede, and then presented as fact for all to learn. Now we have a common misconception that the Rede prohibits harm, when it does nothing of the sort.

It also says that Witches don't use blood, don't drink or do drugs, blah blah blah, when these are all very real things you'll find in the pagan community. And given that she is proven to have lied about other things, I wouldn't be surprised if she just outright lied about the whole 'What witches do and don't do' section to keep the book as more of a trojan horse to unsuspecting parents.

Mainly, what you should know, though, is that she gives you instructions on doing magic rather verbatim, and doesn't instruct you on the theory and practice of how magic is formulated. A number of other authors will go into the psychology of ritual, how to create your own rituals, what makes a ritual effective, and whatnot.

To contrast, Magick in Theory and Practice does not contain a single spell for you to just get up and do. It does, however, go into each and every element of spellcasting from Crowley's perspective, and how they interact in ritual, to give you a firm understanding of what magical practice entails.

Ravenwolf, of course, would rather sell pre-packaged spells to people who don't know or care enough to work with... well, i'll go out on a limb here, and say actual magical work.

You may understand what you think now are the basics -- but Ravenwolf's basics are the basics of the basics. It's so stripped down that it almost ceases to be actual magical practice, and more of a hobby/game activity.  

[Nattfodd]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

oh and also i understand that some of you dont like her beliefs but to actually say they're garbage... it may be "garbage" to you, but im sorry i feel that if someone believes something and it brings them to a higher spiritual level then it is important to them and they deserve to have their beliefs respected. everyone is different and i believe that everyone has a right to different beliefs.

... just saying

People claim it's garbage because it makes the art and religion of many people look like a joke.

Respecting beliefs is one thing. If someone actually wishes to follow Ravenwolf's witchcraft-religion-thing, that's fine. But it's not anthropologically sound, or intellectually sound at all. I will not call a Ravenwolf follower a Wiccan, because they aren't Wiccan -- that'd just be intellectually dishonest of me. Likewise, I can't equate the spellcasting Ravenwolf describes with anything by any other author. I hardly even consider her silly mantras to 'get off of grounding faster' and other would-be selfish manipulations of will spellcasting. It's more along the lines of mental masturbation.  

[Morgandria]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

ok so thank you guys for the opinions... wow....

ok well i have one of her books and i was looking at buying at least 2 others plus i borrowed one from a friend. the book i borrowed was TeenWitch and it was what got me Into wicca, besides my friend talking about it. i understand that you guys dont like how she lies and encourages lying against parents. you have also said that she doesnt know anything about Wicca and that her practices are faulty. however, i have another book Not by her that parallels with some of the practices she mentions pretty well... such as circle casting and sacred space creation.

so pretty much you guys have given me Ample evidence of her lies. my next question to you guys is exactly what Practices of hers do you not agree with? i feel that she has at least helped me to understand the basics... if she doesnt know anything about the more advanced things then i should Love to know before i waste more money

First: what is the other book? I ask because if it parallels Silver's work closely, it is very likely just as unreliable a source of information.

Understand that what Wicca is, is an experiential, oathbound initiatory fertility-based Mystery religion. You won't find it in a book, or online. You'll find it with a coven, out in meatspace, and it's not meant to be easily available. Because of the nature of the Wiccan religion, it simply isn't published in any form that is available to the general public. What you're going to read in books is eclectic neo-paganism, and if your practices come from those books, it's also eclectic neo-paganism.

What Silver RavenWolf writes about is not Wicca. It's witchcraft. She often uses the term "Witchcraft" as interchangeble with "Wicca", which is confusing. One does not equal the other. What she publishes in her books in no way qualifies as Wicca. SRW is not an initiate of any Wiccan tradition. When she was first published, she insisted that she was indeed an initiate, until it was uncovered that she was not. After which she claimed she had never said anything about being a Wiccan, and people had misunderstood or misquoted her.

When people attempt to question or debate RavenWolf, she pulls the persecution act. When someone contradicts her in a space she can control, she deletes their posts, and then bans them. And sometimes, bans everyone who shares their opinions, or even appears to have arrived on that forum at the same time.

I distinctly remember this happening when the "Teen Witch Kit" was published, as I was one of the people who had questions, and about 40 of us got banned simply for daring to question 'Mama Silver's' wisdom in telling children to lie to their parents and harass merchants to get ahold of said kit. We were not rude, and abided by the forum rules. Most of us got only one post, before we were banned.

She blurs a lot of lines and definitions. She spins her words in what I consider a manipulative manner. She often speaks for people she has no authority to speak for - like Wiccans, or "all Witches". Her books contain a very clear bigotry against Christianity. I really find her entire presentation of herself and her books to be deliberately dishonest. I can't abide people who twist the facts to fit an agenda - especially when their agenda is profit, made off people who don't know better than to think she's legit.

Her research skills are weak; she perpetuates some ideas that have long been debunked, and there's a decidedly New-Age flavour to her work. Her books are not deep - they skim the surface of any subject they touch, which can be dangerous - especially with things like herbs.

Her spells are often laughed at by the magical community because, frankly, they're jokes. She doesn't really give anyone the idea that magic takes practice, or foundation skills - nope, you can just chant some doggrel rhyme, and voíla!! And when they don't work, the reader may not realize that it's not entirely because they're not doing it right - that they're not doing it right because she's not teaching it right.

SRW advises that magic requires a belief in a higher power to work - regardless of the fact that there are agnostic and athiestic witches, and forms of magic that work perfectly well without being theistic. There's no depth to her magical advice - it's very much 'white-light'. do-no-wrong, fluffy happy shiny people magic. Life is not all sunshine and candy, and to simply ignore that is not helpful to the reader.

Simply put, magic does not actually work the way she tries to tell people it does. Her tone of writing is frequently patronizing, and insulting to the intellect of the reader. She gives spells for things that have perfectly functional mundane solutions, but never seems to advise the reader to try the mundane solutions first.

All of these things are bad enough, for an adult without the ability to read critically and know when they're being told garbage. For a teenager, with no experience in these issues, usually no teacher or mentor to guide them or clarify things, and being told it's ok to conceal possibly dangerous practices from their parents...it's a recipe for failure, and possible disaster.

There's nothing wrong with being a neo-pagan witch. And if you have the knowledge and experience (and patience) to sift through all of Silver RavenWolf's works to dig out valid practices or information, more power to you. But it's bured in so much garbage, it's really hardly worth the time.

There are better authors out there to learn from.  

[too2sweet]

The Elements of Ritual: Air, Fire, Water & Earth in the Wiccan Circle by Deborah Lipp is also an excellent resource for learning more about the "ins" and "outs" of casting and of rituals in general.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

The thing that bothers me the most personally is that she equates Drawing Down the Moon with siphoning off moon energy. Boy, was I ever surprised when I discovered that a) it's a ritual that can only be performed in a lineaged coven, and b) that it involves actual "possession" and invokation of the Goddess into the body of the High Priestess.

It's a serious ritual, not something you can perform standing in your garden alone with an athame. And it's not something you want to perform by yourself, even if you could!

So yes. I get the idea that it's a pretty important ritual, or element of ritual, within Wicca and it annoys me that she reduces it to borrowing energy from a celestial body.  

[Loona Wynd]

When I read the Drawing Down the Moon and sun rituals I was shocked at how one could ever imagine doing it alone. I mean do I think we can call down Gods and Goddesses like that? Yes but it's not the same ritual. I have felt the presence of something while doing SRW's drawing down the moon.  

[x-moon-x-daughter-x]

morgandria, you are saying that many things she taught were wrong... maybe im just interpreting it differently but some of the things your saying i got from her. like how your saying that she doesnt say to try mundane solutions first. she does say that and actually advises that you do that first but she said sometimes if that doesnt work then you can use a ritual to help it along. and i got the idea that magic takes practice and is not just a rhyme to recite. so im not sure what you were reading...

i will be buying other books, i want to take this seriously, its just since i wanted to become wiccan based on her books i wanted to make sure that was a good decision. should i restart my studies or attempt to build using some of the basics i've learned from her?

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Hmm, in the ones of hers I have read she pushes spells as the answer to all problems. Now, she doesn't say that in so many words, but it's heavily implied as she has spells for every damn thing. "How to manipulate a mean busdriver" and stuff. I mean, seriously?

Anyway... that's beside the point really.

Moon, Wicca isn't a religion that you can learn from books. It's something that must be learned in person, because the bulk of it is something you can't know without being initiated. Silver's books do have a tendency to make one want to become a Wiccan... the only trouble is, she is not a Wiccan, and what she teaches has barely the first thing to do with Wicca.  

[x-moon-x-daughter-x]

ok well then i guess ill have to find a coven in an extremely conservative area.... learning through books is the only thing i have, should i have to give it up if i dont have the teachers you guys are telling me i need?

you guys are telling me that i can only learn through a coven, but i joined this with the purpose Of learning. i just want pointers on good books that i can use to help me... please? so that i can learn until i am Able to find a coven?

 

[Loona Wynd]

Wicca isn't the only religion out there. There are other witchcraft paths and religions (eclectic neo-pagans) that are very simialer to what you read in SRW's books. Though these other books are much better than hers. You can always try looking on witchvox.com  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

ok well then i guess ill have to find a coven in an extremely conservative area.... learning through books is the only thing i have,

Are you at least 18 yet?

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should i have to give it up if i dont have the teachers you guys are telling me i need?

Depends on if you want a faith served to you on a silver platter, or if you don't mind putting some work and sweat into finding a faith and learning about it.

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you guys are telling me that i can only learn through a coven, but i joined this with the purpose Of learning.

And you are learning.
You are learning that what's in SRW books is not Wicca. You are learning what is required to properly be considered a Wiccan.
Just because you are not hearing what you want to hear doesn't mean you're not learning.

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i just want pointers on good books that i can use to help me... please? so that i can learn until i am Able to find a coven?

Read "Triumph of the Moon" by Ronald Hutton. The works of Gerald Gardner are good as well. I personally would read them in that order (Hutton, then Gardner) just so you have a good grasp on the history of Wicca; Gardner utilizes Murray's theory of a pre-Christian European witchcult that has been thoroughly debunked.
It will probably be helpful to learn some critical thinking skills. When you pick up a book, look at the sources that book utilized. Did it use scholarly/source texts? Or is it a huge list of "Morgan le Fey's Guide to Being Wiccan in 5 E-Z Steps" type of books?
If you manage to find a coven, they usually tend to have a reading list for those who are interested in pursuing initiation.  

[x-moon-x-daughter-x]

no, im not 18 yet but im close why? and thanks for the suggestions ill try those biggrin

 

[Nattfodd]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

i will be buying other books, i want to take this seriously, its just since i wanted to become wiccan based on her books i wanted to make sure that was a good decision.

Keep in mind Ravenwolf deliberately lies about her teachings. She does not teach Wicca. What she teaches is ecclectic Witchcraft, and refuses to distinguish that Wicca and Witchcraft are separate entities -- essentially insulting actual Wiccans with her books.

If you want to keep along the same lines as what she's teaching, there's Seax-Wica (Buckland,) and Standing Stone Tradition (Cunningham) both of which are valid Witchcraft traditions... both, in some cases, step on the toes of Wiccans by claiming to be the same, but they have also personally identified themselves with a specific tradition instead of completely mis-appropriating themselves.

Keep in mind Seax-Wica is more Ceremonial Magic-based, and closer to real Wicca (which you may not want to be a part of -- read up on it in the scholarly-compiled Wicca FAQ) and Standing Stone Trad will be closer to the Ravenwolf style, but with more character, more direction, and overall better tact.

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should i restart my studies or attempt to build using some of the basics i've learned from her?

A bit of both. Restart your studies, but keep in mind that some actions, like circle casting, calling the corners or whatnot, will still exist in actual non-ridiculous traditions. Good authors will drastically re-define what these mean, though, and the purpose for doing so.

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ok well then i guess ill have to find a coven in an extremely conservative area.... learning through books is the only thing i have, should i have to give it up if i dont have the teachers you guys are telling me i need?

There are some libraries that stock materials on the subjects you are interested in, and also, you may be able to find a group on the internet with a private library for lending. You can also read a good chunk of some books on Google Books.

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you guys are telling me that i can only learn through a coven, but i joined this with the purpose Of learning.

Covens help, sure. Actual Wicca only allows you to learn the core of Wiccan ritual through a coven. But that's okay, Wicca isn't for everyone (it's just marketed as though it was for everyone -- if you can understand. Wicca is a tagline word for books to get them to sell.) You can learn plenty without a coven.

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i just want pointers on good books that i can use to help me... please? so that i can learn until i am Able to find a coven?

For actual Wicca
Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon
Gerald Gardner's Witchcraft Today
If you find user Scorplett on Gaia, she is a lineaged member of an Alexandrian coven and has a -very- extensive reading list she can PM you, I'm sure.

For generalized Witchcraft// other traditions
Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft
Wicca: Guide for a solitary practioner by Scott Cunningham

Just keep in mind that Wicca is ONE tradition and most authors who claim to be of Wiccan descent are not Wiccan and do not teach Wicca... Scott Cunningham was initiated into real Wicca, but is not considered an oathbreaker because he does not teach the secrets of it wink  

[x-moon-x-daughter-x]

ok, thank you SO much for your help guys that was a lot of information biggrin

ill find scorplett and ask for the list thanks for all the help, now all i need to do is find the books smile

*hugs* for everyone that helped!

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

x-moon-x-daughter-x

no, im not 18 yet but im close why? and thanks for the suggestions ill try those biggrin

Wicca is a fertility-based faith. The rituals involve sexually-themed aspects that are illegal when done to or in the presence of a minor. First degree initiation alone would involve the HP giving the Five-fold Kiss which includes kissing your pubic area.