Taurus Judge

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

I think the reason a lot show up used is it's kind of a novelty. You buy one, screw around with it for a while, and then sell it back. Because it's too muich of a niche weapon to be really useful except in limited situations.

I mean I would never consider carrying it concealed, and in a house you may as well have a full-size handgun or long gun.

If I had the money for such a specialty gun, I would totally keep one in my car, but I doubt I ever will, so I won't.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Requiem in Mortis

It's classified as a revolver, because it has rifling in the barrel.

Apparently it's Taurus' top-selling product.

I can imagine. It'd do well in a small house, too. It's small enough to keep it in a bedside drawer or something, keep it out of sight and out of the way, but when it's needed you can just pop it right out and have it in hand in seconds.

.....Just like any handgun available?

Yeah, exactly. Except the Judge can make four or five holes to another handgun's one.

Okay, NOW I'm seeing a use for a rifled choke and buckshot.

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.  

[ArmasTermin]

Speaking of shot loads, I've read that the ideal for home defense is #4 in 12-gauge. I'm sure there's plenty of reading to be had on the internet of this subject, but what have you all heard of being used for great damage with minimal over-penetration? I live in a trailer, so walls are darn thin. Closest neighbor is maybe... twenty yards away?  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

Speaking of shot loads, I've read that the ideal for home defense is #4 in 12-gauge. I'm sure there's plenty of reading to be had on the internet of this subject, but what have you all heard of being used for great damage with minimal over-penetration? I live in a trailer, so walls are darn thin. Closest neighbor is maybe... twenty yards away?

The best thing to prevent penetrating walls is a nice squishy torso!


Generally, that does hold true, even though I said it to be funny. You live in a trailer. Anything that can stop a man will zip right through your place. The best solution is to hit what you're aiming at. #4 does penetrate less, but it does have more pellets. Ballistic testing shows that it has a higher capacity to wound, while still reaching minimum penetration, IF ALL PELLETS HIT.  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

Speaking of shot loads, I've read that the ideal for home defense is #4 in 12-gauge. I'm sure there's plenty of reading to be had on the internet of this subject, but what have you all heard of being used for great damage with minimal over-penetration? I live in a trailer, so walls are darn thin. Closest neighbor is maybe... twenty yards away?

Breaching slugs.

Box 'O Truth's test was non-realistic, their "walls" are 1" apart. Any normal room has at LEAST five feet between walls. There's no way a breaching slug is making it through two walls (interior and exterior), especially an aluminum-sided trailer, without falling apart. I've done that test myself with 1x2s and various pistols. The breaching slug on BoT made it through 9 sheets of drywall, and simply failed to hit the tenth. The same results came when I tested .22s out of my Mossberg 44. Anything bigger than a .22 penetrated all 12 sheets of drywall and left the test bed.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Requiem in Mortis

It's classified as a revolver, because it has rifling in the barrel.

Apparently it's Taurus' top-selling product.

I can imagine. It'd do well in a small house, too. It's small enough to keep it in a bedside drawer or something, keep it out of sight and out of the way, but when it's needed you can just pop it right out and have it in hand in seconds.

.....Just like any handgun available?

Yeah, exactly. Except the Judge can make four or five holes to another handgun's one.

Okay, NOW I'm seeing a use for a rifled choke and buckshot.

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.

It might have less power, but that's at a distance. We're talking almost point-blank ranges here. Two, three feet at most. "Muzzle velocity" is a very good idea of what we'd get at impact distance. Muzzle velocity for Federal Personal Defense .410 in 2.5" shells is comparable to a 9mm (Federal claims 1200fps). So it really IS like hitting the other guy with 4 9mm bullets at once.

And I dunno about you, but Federal Personal Defense .410 is a common item on the shelf at my local Wal-Mart. It's not impossible to find, depending on where you live. Most pistol calibers, however, are impossible to run across there.  

[ArmasTermin]

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

Speaking of shot loads, I've read that the ideal for home defense is #4 in 12-gauge. I'm sure there's plenty of reading to be had on the internet of this subject, but what have you all heard of being used for great damage with minimal over-penetration? I live in a trailer, so walls are darn thin. Closest neighbor is maybe... twenty yards away?

Breaching slugs.

Box 'O Truth's test was non-realistic, their "walls" are 1" apart. Any normal room has at LEAST five feet between walls. There's no way a breaching slug is making it through two walls (interior and exterior), especially an aluminum-sided trailer, without falling apart. I've done that test myself with 1x2s and various pistols. The breaching slug on BoT made it through 9 sheets of drywall, and simply failed to hit the tenth. The same results came when I tested .22s out of my Mossberg 44. Anything bigger than a .22 penetrated all 12 sheets of drywall and left the test bed.

They also did a LATER test with "rooms" set up--distance between the plates.  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

Nobody ever does.

Quote:

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

Quote:

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Requiem in Mortis

It's classified as a revolver, because it has rifling in the barrel.

Apparently it's Taurus' top-selling product.

I can imagine. It'd do well in a small house, too. It's small enough to keep it in a bedside drawer or something, keep it out of sight and out of the way, but when it's needed you can just pop it right out and have it in hand in seconds.

.....Just like any handgun available?

Yeah, exactly. Except the Judge can make four or five holes to another handgun's one.

Okay, NOW I'm seeing a use for a rifled choke and buckshot.

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.

It might have less power, but that's at a distance. We're talking almost point-blank ranges here. Two, three feet at most. "Muzzle velocity" is a very good idea of what we'd get at impact distance. Muzzle velocity for Federal Personal Defense .410 in 2.5" shells is comparable to a 9mm (Federal claims 1200fps). So it really IS like hitting the other guy with 4 9mm bullets at once.

And I dunno about you, but Federal Personal Defense .410 is a common item on the shelf at my local Wal-Mart. It's not impossible to find, depending on where you live. Most pistol calibers, however, are impossible to run across there.

Do they tell the barrel length they tested with?

Each pellet has less mass. The total energy for each pellet is low, and there are four of them. Not eight, not nine, not 12, four. Hell, even in 12 gauge, each pellet of 00 only has 130-something foot-pounds of energy.

At point blank, anything would do. In fact, anything would do BETTER. The Judge is hard to conceal, large and pretty heavy. A 9mm with Cor-bon or Hornady XTPs, a .45ACP with XTPs, .38SPCL with a quality JHP or full lead, .357MAG with the same as .38SPCL, 7.62x25TOK JHPS reach just like .357MAG JHPs, except they are in an auto and don't recoil as hard (but damn are they hard to find). Hell, the judge offers .45LC, which is a beast in and of itself.

How many people do you know actually carry a Judge? I know plenty of people who own them. NONE carry them regularly. FEW carry them boating for snakes. Which is the real use for a .410 handgun.

I can find, BUCKSHOT in .410:
Brown Bear #4. $16 for 25. Oh, and it's 3".
Sellier and Bellot 000, three pellet. 2.5". $20 for 25.
S&B, 00, unlisted number of pellets. 3", $22 for 25.
Winchester Super-x. 000. Three pellets. 2.5". $6 for 5.
Federal ".410 Handgun". 4 pellets. 000. 2.5". $14 for 20.
Two of those can't even be used in the more common Judge.

I have two full pages of JHPs for 9mm.
Federal HydraShok 124 grn at $26 for 50.
Hydrashok 147grn at $26 for 50.
PMC Starfire 124grn at $15 for 20.
Fiocchi 147grn XTPs at $21 for 50.
Remington UMC 115grn at $20 for 50.
Remington Express same as above except $21 for 50.
Remington Express 147grn at $38 for 50
MAGTECH Guardian Gold, 155grn +P $14 for 20
MAGTECH GG 124grn non +P, $14 for 20.
MAGTECH First Defense (solid Copper) 93grn, $20 for 20 (DAMN!)
Corbon and Corbon Pow'rball $20 for 20 (115 and 100grn, respectively, +P)
Corbon DPX is $30 for 20, 115grn.
Corbon DPX with Thunder Ranch on the Box. See above.
Remington Golden Sabre, 147grn, $16 for 25.
Golden Sabre 124grn +P, same price.
S&B 115grn, $19 for 50.
S&B non-toxic 115grn, same price.
And then, my favorite because they're ******** retarded marketing...
EXTREME SHOCK! AIR FREEDOM ROUND! 85grn, $10 for 6 rounds.
All of these are Jacketed Hollow Points. Except the Extreme Shock. But I included those to make fun of them.

7.62x25TOK, all JHPs:
Wolf. Everywhere is out of stock. Stupid freaking Tokarev owners and their selfishness. But .357MAG performance out of a .30 auto with a slim grip? That's WHY.

.38SPCL
Scratch that. I WAS going to make a list, but the amount of defense-viable ammunition in the caliber is innumerable.
Same with .357MAG. Hell of a lot of choices. Some pretty cheap, too.

.45ACP has all the choices of 9mm, with the addition of Speer Gold Dot, except it averages 50 cents a round. A couple more (CORBON, specifically, and of course EXTREME SHOCK!)


And I though .50GI was a joke. Apparently not, because they sell JHPS. Guncrafter, 275grn, $35 for 20. And 300grn flat-points at $33.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

Nobody ever does.

Quote:

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

Quote:

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

Nobody ever does.

Quote:

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

Quote:

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.

There's no breaching slugs there. Breaching slugs are frangible. They physically DISINTEGRATE when they hit something. They fail to exist as a solid object by the time they hit the second wall. That's how they skirt the general rule of "big enough to kill, big enough to break through as many walls as you can give it".  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)

A: I think you have a slight misunderstanding of exactly what a breaching slug does, how it works, and what it's made of.

B: Do you have ANY IDEA how hypocritical what you just said was?  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)

A: I think you have a slight misunderstanding of exactly what a breaching slug does, how it works, and what it's made of.

B: Do you have ANY IDEA how hypocritical what you just said was?

Compressed powder, OR a plastic container that holds a powder. It's designed to break a lock with minimal backblast and minimal penetration through whatever is behind it. It does that well. It ******** SUCKS against people.

Let's see. PREGRAGMENTED SLUG. Compressed metal powder. Two different things. You have 9 pellets that maintain a bore-sized group at inside-the-home distances that penetrate as deep as they normally would, but in a centralized location. They spread slightly when they deform and yaw in the flesh. Then there is powder, that, as you stated yourself, DISINTEGRATES. It makes a nasty, shallow wound.