The First Amendment and the Workplace

[Yanueh]

kage no neko

Why would it apply only to the government?

Because that's the way it was designed to work.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Yanueh

The first amendment applies to the government, not civilian-owned businesses.

While on the surface, the wording of the Amendment itself supports this, further investigation into Title VII and the commentary by the Federal Supreme Court explains the connection between the First Amendment and the rights granted to private citizens employed by private businesses.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

While a private business is allowed to establish policies, the US Government due to anti-discrimination laws, is forced to rule on the legality of private business decisions in relation to "protected classes"- amongst these is religion. Because the US cannot establish official religions, I feel the First Amendment has a direct impact on the relationship between private businesses, it's employees and our government on the Federal and State level.

The foundation for this interrelationship stems from those protected rights being voiced or carried into the workplace.

While it is true that the wording of the First Amendment itself does not directly apply to private business, I feel there is more than enough commentary in our legal system to show that there is a tenuous foothold of Constitutional issues present in the private sector.

kage no neko

I think it'd be okay if they make sure no employees at all are allowed to wear religious stuff, that it's not favoring one religion.

I feel that our right as citizens to practice our religion and follow our spiritual paths is very important and I admit I am very thankful that the law agrees with me.

kage no neko

If it's like a necklace or something, why not tuck it into his shirt?

It is not a necklace. However, I feel this raises an interesting point. Some feel that being compelled to hide consecrated marks of faith is wrong. In the link I provided, intentionally concealing the tattoos was described as a sin. For him, removing his earrings is a sin.  

[kage no neko]

I think that the workplace has the right to lay down a uniform, and that may say to remove all visible jewelry and cover all tattoos. I think this is reasonable.
I agree, it's not right that the previous supervisor let him get away with it and this new one is more strict to the rules. But as long as the rules have always been there, and they do not discriminate (saying that this person can while this person cannot), that it's a very reasonable request.

I'm not sure how the law works, but I'd say.. if your work has a uniform and you can't hold to it, then find different work.
Also, does your state (are you US?) have an at-will firing thing? Where they can fire you and say they did it for any reason as long as it wasn't discriminatory? They COULD fire him and say that he wasn't willing to follow dress code..  

[Yanueh]

Brass Bell Doll

While a private business is allowed to establish policies, the US Government due to anti-discrimination laws, is forced to rule on the legality of private business decisions in relation to "protected classes"- amongst these is religion. Because the US cannot establish official religions, I feel the First Amendment has a direct impact on the relationship between private businesses, it's employees and our government on the Federal and State level.

The fact that people of faith are in some cases exempt from rules that apply to others is a violation of the First Amendment.  

[too2sweet]

Brass... unless they are making all employees (male and female) remove their earrings - he could probably file a case under gender discrimination as well.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

I think that the workplace has the right to lay down a uniform, and that may say to remove all visible jewelry and cover all tattoos. I think this is reasonable.

I feel that expecting someone to commit a sin in favor of conformity to Brand Image when there is no threat to the safety of others is not reasonable. If the wearing of the jewelry fostered a hostile work environment that was disruptive to others and the ability to effectively do their job, I feel it would be unreasonable. If it could be shown that the business would suffer financial hardship because of an accommodation, I would agree it is unreasonable. Fortunately for my friend, this is not the case.

The First Amendment insures our rights to practice as we see fit in this country and civil rights legislation protects us from abuse by our employers because of the promises made to us as citizens in our Constitution.

kage no neko

I agree, it's not right that the previous supervisor let him get away with it and this new one is more strict to the rules. But as long as the rules have always been there, and they do not discriminate (saying that this person can while this person cannot), that it's a very reasonable request.

I feel asking him to remove consecrated jewelry that was paid for by blood and pain in ritual is tantamount to telling an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi that if he does not shave his forelocks and eat pork he will be fired. Since Orthodox Judaism teaches this is a sin- akin to spitting in the face of God, I feel to compel this is to allow religious bias, fear and hatred to govern our society. Because these fears and biases are part of our world, action needs to be taken to protect those who would be extorted under the threat of not being able to support themselves.
I also feel that as these rights are protected for other religions and the non-religious, they should be protected for pagans as well.

kage no neko

I'm not sure how the law works, but I'd say.. if your work has a uniform and you can't hold to it, then find different work.

I feel that being able to eat and keep a roof over your head is very important- and in this economy, "find another job" is not as simple as it appears at first blush.

Thankfully, Equal Employment laws are on his side.

kage no neko

Also, does your state (are you US?) have an at-will firing thing? Where they can fire you and say they did it for any reason as long as it wasn't discriminatory? They COULD fire him and say that he wasn't willing to follow dress code..

While we are an At Will state, if he was fired for not following the dress code, it would be discriminatory- since he would effectively be fired for his religious beliefs and practices.

Yanueh

The fact that people of faith are in some cases exempt from rules that apply to others is a violation of the First Amendment.

I do not feel this is the case. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning and why it is a violation of the First Amendment?

too2sweet

Brass... unless they are making all employees (male and female) remove their earrings - he could probably file a case under gender discrimination as well.

All employees, men, women and other are being required to remove these kinds of piercings.  

[kage no neko]

'kay. I just don't see it ending well, although I understand where you're coming from. So good luck to him. I hope he wins.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

'kay. I just don't see it ending well

Would you be willing to expand upon why you feel this way?

I also find myself curious about your reasoning on some of the things you said. Why do you feel a corporation should not have to respect boundaries in the faith of their employees?  

[Tirissana]

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

While I am a pagan, I don't wear anything to signify that I am such, for my protection and that I'm afraid of the proverbial s**t storm that may follow. And if it could get in the way with my work. Cause getting my pentacles stuck in the copier or printer while trying to fix a paper jam would suck....epically.

However there are certain policies and procedures that some companies do follow like Home Depot for example: You are not allowed to wear any buttons unless they are of an approved vendor. ( There was a case last year that man was asked to remove his button that said "God Bless America and that it infringed on his rights)

Depending on where your friend works, the jewelery in question can cause a safety issue. If your friend is working in say a warehouse/manufacturing environment then earrings could get caught in some machinery, or damage the machine, etc. We tell all our employees to take out the earrings, and other jewelery for their safety per our customers.

Also depending on where your friend lives, some states are Right to Work states. So they can by rights make up policies on the spot. (It's very common in staffing)

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

kage no neko

Yanueh

kage no neko

I think it'd be okay if they make sure no employees at all are allowed to wear religious stuff, that it's not favoring one religion.

The First Amendment only applies to the government. Not to you, not to me, and not to business owners.

If the OP wants to find out what is or isn't legally allowed, she'd have to find out which anti-discrimination laws apply to her state.

Why would it apply only to the government?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Basically it says that the government cannot make laws that would override our freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly, petition, etc. It does not say that we can scream "Freedom of xyz" at our employers, family, friends, etc because we feel threatened. Among other things.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

Quote:

While on the surface, the wording of the Amendment itself supports this, further investigation into Title VII and the commentary by the Federal Supreme Court explains the connection between the First Amendment and the rights granted to private citizens employed by private businesses.

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Except private companies have their separate code of policies that must be followed in order to prevent any accidents or loss of life that may happen. That is why they have those policies in place. It's not to discriminate anyone, however it's to make sure they're going to be safe at all times. If there is an accident, then that private business is ultimately held responsible.

When you do apply at these companies we have to sign that we understand and agree what these policies mean. Once we sign that contract it becomes bound to us throughout your employment. Maybe your friend should have possibly looked at the contract a little more closely before screaming discrimination.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

 

[Brass Bell Doll]

xLady Tsukiyox

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

While I am a pagan, I don't wear anything to signify that I am such, for my protection and that I'm afraid of the proverbial s**t storm that may follow. And if it could get in the way with my work. Cause getting my pentacles stuck in the copier or printer while trying to fix a paper jam would suck....epically.

However there are certain policies and procedures that some companies do follow like Home Depot for example: You are not allowed to wear any buttons unless they are of an approved vendor. ( There was a case last year that man was asked to remove his button that said "God Bless America and that it infringed on his rights)

Depending on where your friend works, the jewelery in question can cause a safety issue. If your friend is working in say a warehouse/manufacturing environment then earrings could get caught in some machinery, or damage the machine, etc. We tell all our employees to take out the earrings, and other jewelery for their safety per our customers.

Also depending on where your friend lives, some states are Right to Work states. So they can by rights make up policies on the spot. (It's very common in staffing)

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

I believe earlier in the discussion I mentioned that the issue was not a safety one, but one of Brand Image.

The company is asking him to comply because they do not approve of visible body modification.

xLady Tsukiyox

kage no neko

Yanueh

kage no neko

I think it'd be okay if they make sure no employees at all are allowed to wear religious stuff, that it's not favoring one religion.

The First Amendment only applies to the government. Not to you, not to me, and not to business owners.

If the OP wants to find out what is or isn't legally allowed, she'd have to find out which anti-discrimination laws apply to her state.

Why would it apply only to the government?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Basically it says that the government cannot make laws that would override our freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly, petition, etc. It does not say that we can scream "Freedom of xyz" at our employers, family, friends, etc because we feel threatened. Among other things.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

Quote:

While on the surface, the wording of the Amendment itself supports this, further investigation into Title VII and the commentary by the Federal Supreme Court explains the connection between the First Amendment and the rights granted to private citizens employed by private businesses.

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Except private companies have their separate code of policies that must be followed in order to prevent any accidents or loss of life that may happen. That is why they have those policies in place. It's not to discriminate anyone, however it's to make sure they're going to be safe at all times. If there is an accident, then that private business is ultimately held responsible.

While I feel this is correct of course, there are also accommodations that can be made and are consistently made by employers as long as those accommodations can be shown to meet certain guidelines.

xLady Tsukiyox

When you do apply at these companies we have to sign that we understand and agree what these policies mean. Once we sign that contract it becomes bound to us throughout your employment. Maybe your friend should have possibly looked at the contract a little more closely before screaming discrimination.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

I feel my friend is justified since his piercings are not a safety issue, and since his piercings do not cause any undue hardship for his company.  

[Shearaha]

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

Depending on the surgery this is already required. Most neuro-surgery requires that all body hair be covered or geled over. At least where I work it is.

I was glib. I apologize. I was attempting to illustrate that hair is hair, and that having an intense reaction to chest hair is not rational unless it is extended to other forms of hair.

Sorry, I missed that sweatdrop I immediatly saw the exposed chest hair as as possible vector of infection, especially in an ER where one never knows what will be wheeled in the door. Hair in an abdominal wound, or chest wound, or other cavity wound is not a good thing.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Shearaha

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

Depending on the surgery this is already required. Most neuro-surgery requires that all body hair be covered or geled over. At least where I work it is.

I was glib. I apologize. I was attempting to illustrate that hair is hair, and that having an intense reaction to chest hair is not rational unless it is extended to other forms of hair.

Sorry, I missed that sweatdrop I immediatly saw the exposed chest hair as as possible vector of infection, especially in an ER where one never knows what will be wheeled in the door. Hair in an abdominal wound, or chest wound, or other cavity wound is not a good thing.

I wasn't communicating clearly, it was my fault.  

[Tirissana]

Brass Bell Doll

xLady Tsukiyox

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

While I am a pagan, I don't wear anything to signify that I am such, for my protection and that I'm afraid of the proverbial s**t storm that may follow. And if it could get in the way with my work. Cause getting my pentacles stuck in the copier or printer while trying to fix a paper jam would suck....epically.

However there are certain policies and procedures that some companies do follow like Home Depot for example: You are not allowed to wear any buttons unless they are of an approved vendor. ( There was a case last year that man was asked to remove his button that said "God Bless America and that it infringed on his rights)

Depending on where your friend works, the jewelery in question can cause a safety issue. If your friend is working in say a warehouse/manufacturing environment then earrings could get caught in some machinery, or damage the machine, etc. We tell all our employees to take out the earrings, and other jewelery for their safety per our customers.

Also depending on where your friend lives, some states are Right to Work states. So they can by rights make up policies on the spot. (It's very common in staffing)

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

I believe earlier in the discussion I mentioned that the issue was not a safety one, but one of Brand Image.

The company is asking him to comply because they do not approve of visible body modification.

xLady Tsukiyox

kage no neko

Yanueh

kage no neko

I think it'd be okay if they make sure no employees at all are allowed to wear religious stuff, that it's not favoring one religion.

The First Amendment only applies to the government. Not to you, not to me, and not to business owners.

If the OP wants to find out what is or isn't legally allowed, she'd have to find out which anti-discrimination laws apply to her state.

Why would it apply only to the government?

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Basically it says that the government cannot make laws that would override our freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly, petition, etc. It does not say that we can scream "Freedom of xyz" at our employers, family, friends, etc because we feel threatened. Among other things.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

Quote:

While on the surface, the wording of the Amendment itself supports this, further investigation into Title VII and the commentary by the Federal Supreme Court explains the connection between the First Amendment and the rights granted to private citizens employed by private businesses.

I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?

Except private companies have their separate code of policies that must be followed in order to prevent any accidents or loss of life that may happen. That is why they have those policies in place. It's not to discriminate anyone, however it's to make sure they're going to be safe at all times. If there is an accident, then that private business is ultimately held responsible.

While I feel this is correct of course, there are also accommodations that can be made and are consistently made by employers as long as those accommodations can be shown to meet certain guidelines.

xLady Tsukiyox

When you do apply at these companies we have to sign that we understand and agree what these policies mean. Once we sign that contract it becomes bound to us throughout your employment. Maybe your friend should have possibly looked at the contract a little more closely before screaming discrimination.

I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan

I feel my friend is justified since his piercings are not a safety issue, and since his piercings do not cause any undue hardship for his company.

First of all what is "Brand Image"

Secondly, what are the policies and procedures where your friend works at? Does he work in a warehouse/manufacturing environment or office environment. (Both are vastly different)