drawing blood

[-Vampire_of_Nyx-]

Esiris

Ritual at Dusk

Some of my sources are spellsandmagic.com, Christopher Penczak, and a lot of other articles that I have read that I cannot cite unfortunatley.
Also, harm isn't always evil, but evil is always harmful, otherwise it just isn't evil.

I think I found one of the reasons we're not on the same page. Penczak isn't a Wiccan author, and spellsandmagic.com- while it is possible that Puzuzu is an initiate, I haven't seen anything to suggest he is. In fact, I think that his posting on Wicca is enough to make an educated guess that he isn't.

Of the Wiccans I know, I think more of them would be offended by his page's claims about "the Wiccan way" than not. Wicca didn't exist before Christianity. The author of the article claims things about other religions and gender equality, and stuff that makes me uncomfortable.

See, a lot of information that is published as being about Wicca is really only using the name.

true that wicca didnt exsit before christianity but i believe paganism did and wicca is a branch of that.

Ritual at Dusk Wrote

I'm not telling people who is or isn't wiccan based on the rede, I'm saying that from absolutely every trustful source I've read it says wicca is about not harming people, despite what the rede says. If doing evil practices is also part of wicca then I want no further part of it.

the rede does say not to harm anyone but thats goes into everything. dont be rude, dont hit, dont do anything that will cause someone mental, physical, or emotional harm. That is impossable. I dont think anyone can say that they havent hurt someone.  

[Esiris]

-Vampire_of_Nyx-

true that wicca didnt exsit before christianity but i believe paganism did and wicca is a branch of that.

The reason I mention it is that the website they have been learning from isn't a good source on what Wicca is.

Quote:

the rede does say not to harm anyone but thats goes into everything. dont be rude, dont hit, dont do anything that will cause someone mental, physical, or emotional harm. That is impossable. I dont think anyone can say that they havent hurt someone.

The Rede doesn't really say that though. "An it harm none, do as ye will".

An is an old fashioned way of saying "as long as", so it's saying as long as it doesn't harm, you can do it, which isn't the same as saying don't harm. We have two different things here. Harming people is one, and things that don't harm is another. Harming people is an orange. Things that don't harm are apples.

"If you want, eat and apple" isn't the same as saying "Don't eat the orange."

Make sense?  

[-Vampire_of_Nyx-]

Esiris

-Vampire_of_Nyx-

the rede does say not to harm anyone but thats goes into everything. dont be rude, dont hit, dont do anything that will cause someone mental, physical, or emotional harm. That is impossable. I dont think anyone can say that they havent hurt someone.

The Rede doesn't really say that though. "An it harm none, do as ye will".

An is an old fashioned way of saying "as long as", so it's saying as long as it doesn't harm, you can do it, which isn't the same as saying don't harm. We have two different things here. Harming people is one, and things that don't harm is another. Harming people is an orange. Things that don't harm are apples.

"If you want, eat and apple" isn't the same as saying "Don't eat the orange."

Make sense?

i was useing the "dont harm anyone" thing cuz i couldnt exactly remember what the rede said. it says "An it harm none, do as ye will" but it doesnt hold and guidlines it simply is. if it harms none then do what you will. i think that Ritual at Dusk doesnt want to do anything that would cause something bad to happen,
i wouldnt do anything that would cause harm to a person, animal, or nature. If i had to then i would ask if it would be ok and if my response is no then oh well it wasnt ment to happen  

[mechanical kitsy]

Esiris

mechanical kitsy

Harm none, do as ye will simply means if you do not harm, harm will not come back onto you. It's a karma thing.

I don't really get that when I read the Rede.
Would you share your reasons?

logic.
harm none, you'll be fine =/= do harm, it comes back to you.

Ritual at Dusk

I'm not saying that there is no way to practice without harming anybody, but doing it intentionally isn't part of the wiccan practice

Question: are you initiated into a lineaged coven?  

[Ritual at Dusk]

The wiccan rede states
"an ye harm none, do what ye will"
Translation: If you harm none then do what you will.(as long as your actions don't harm anyone then do what you please)

I honestly for the life of me cannot understand why all of you are saying that "Nowhere in the rede does it say we can't harm" when it states clearly right there! I mean, yes, maybe you can still harm, but the rede is stating that you shouldn't.

Sometimes I really wonder why I bother with these guilds because when I ask for assistance I don't get help, I merely get everybody clarifying everything I say to a fault. The point of posting something isn't so that I can get everybody to clarify everything so much that the discussion loses the original point, the point of posting is to get assistance.  

[Esiris]

mechanical kitsy

logic.
harm none, you'll be fine =/= do harm, it comes back to you.

I don't see "it comes back to you" as part of the Rede. Even in the extended Rede, it mentions the Rule of Three, but I see that as dealing with a consequence, not a return.

So I'm not seeing where you get your reasoning.

Ritual at Dusk

The wiccan rede states
"an ye harm none, do what ye will"
Translation: If you harm none then do what you will.(as long as your actions don't harm anyone then do what you please)

I honestly for the life of me cannot understand why all of you are saying that "Nowhere in the rede does it say we can't harm" when it states clearly right there! I mean, yes, maybe you can still harm, but the rede is stating that you shouldn't.

That's just it. I don't think the Rede says you shouldn't harm. I think it says if it doesn't harm, that's okay.

I have a bowl full of apples and oranges. I say "If you want, eat the apples". I'm not telling them they can't have an orange. I'm not saying it's bad to eat the orange. I'm saying people can eat apples if they want. The read says "If you want to do something that doesn't harm- it's fine."

My conversations with Wiccans have consistently agreed on this point- that the Rede doesn't say you shouldn't harm. It only says if it doesn't harm, you're welcome to do it.

It's been the single most consistent opinion amongst the Wiccans I have spoken with when it comes to anything dealing with Wicca.

If people want to choose to not do harm, that's fine by me. But I don't think it's okay to say the Rede says something it doesn't.

Quote:

Sometimes I really wonder why I bother with these guilds because when I ask for assistance I don't get help, I merely get everybody clarifying everything I say to a fault. The point of posting something isn't so that I can get everybody to clarify everything so much that the discussion loses the original point, the point of posting is to get assistance.

If someone is having a problem, and part of the problem is outlined in the premise, explaining how there is a problem in the basis of what they are talking about is helping.  

[ncsweet]

Ritual at Dusk

Sometimes I really wonder why I bother with these guilds because when I ask for assistance I don't get help, I merely get everybody clarifying everything I say to a fault. The point of posting something isn't so that I can get everybody to clarify everything so much that the discussion loses the original point, the point of posting is to get assistance.

Your original question was based on the premise that the Rede says one cannot cause harm - which in turn meant that harming oneself to obtain blood for ritual use was wrong. It was important to clear up the misconception about the Rede, because it was central to answering your question.

Once it is understood that the Rede does not prohibit harm (though it's also debatable as to if drawing one's own blood is actually harmful), then it becomes a non-issue in relation to your question. At which point the answer to your question should become clear - there is nothing that prevents anyone from using blood for ritual use (if they so choose to).  

[mechanical kitsy]

Esiris

mechanical kitsy

logic.
harm none, you'll be fine =/= do harm, it comes back to you.

I don't see "it comes back to you" as part of the Rede. Even in the extended Rede, it mentions the Rule of Three, but I see that as dealing with a consequence, not a return.

So I'm not seeing where you get your reasoning.

The rule of three is about karma.
If you do something that is harmful, eventually your actions will catch up with you in some way or the other.  

[Esiris]

mechanical kitsy

The rule of three is about karma.
If you do something that is harmful, eventually your actions will catch up with you in some way or the other.

That isn't what the Wiccans I have talked to have said.

I don't really understand Buddhism much, but I thought karma kept you being born.

My HPS has said the Rule of Three is about consequences- that when you effect a situation, you have to handle the results, spiritually, physically and mentally.

Neither of these seem that much the same- especially since Karma is always a bad thing- but in Wicca, being reborn with your family is one of the good things.  

[pompoennetje]

I don't see a problem with that.

If you think it is right, why not?  

[Neime-chan]

Quote:

the rede does say not to harm anyone but thats goes into everything. dont be rude, dont hit, dont do anything that will cause someone mental, physical, or emotional harm. That is impossable. I dont think anyone can say that they havent hurt someone.

The Rede doesn't really say that though. "An it harm none, do as ye will".

An is an old fashioned way of saying "as long as", so it's saying as long as it doesn't harm, you can do it, which isn't the same as saying don't harm. We have two different things here. Harming people is one, and things that don't harm is another. Harming people is an orange. Things that don't harm are apples.

"If you want, eat and apple" isn't the same as saying "Don't eat the orange."

Make sense?

Your way of putting it is a new way of looking at it that I really never thought of. But what of the blood shedding? I don' believe that it is actually 'harming yourself" in the sense that most see. Lets say that there is a Wiccan that is over the age of 18 and smokes. Are they breaking the Wiccan Rede by doing this? I believe that if you wish to do something that doesn't actually "harm" you in a major kind of way than do it if you think it necessary. A cut on your arm doesn't harm you in a major way, so whats the problem?

 

[CursedExile]

The Wiccan Rede states not to harm others it underlines the significance of the karmic law.
Blood drawing for ritualistic use is a practice that does not conflict with this law. The deities and higher cosmic forces do not bind us to this law. Neo-paganism is about freewill. That is our gift as witches.
Blood drawing and any form of sanguinary work is very powerful craft work. Blood is very powerful, it houses our chi, our energies and our personal life force. And it certainly is not bad to use it. I am a Sanguinary Vampire and bloodletting is apart of my life. I have worked with it during my spells, it is a wonder to use.  

[Xaolu]

Ritual at Dusk

mechanical kitsy

Ritual at Dusk

Esiris

Ritual at Dusk

well yes but if you are one who harms others intentionally then you aren't really wiccan(neo-wiccan because I suspect somebody will want to clarify me to death as they always feel they have to) *rolls eyes*

I'm not Wiccan. I'm a seeker. Even if my seeking leads me to joining Wicca, my HPS expects me to think about my actions- not to follow the Rede with an empty head.

I intentionally harm things every day- but that isn't the point. Why are you able to tell anyone- seeker or otherwise, who is or isn't Wiccan based on how they view the Rede?

Ncsweet, there are other oaths that can be part of certain covens, lines or traditions that go along with the Ardanes.

I'm not telling people who is or isn't wiccan based on the rede, I'm saying that from absolutely every trustful source I've read it says wicca is about not harming people, despite what the rede says. If doing evil practices is also part of wicca then I want no further part of it.

There's a common phrase used: "a witch that cannot hex cannot heal."
Harm none, do as ye will simply means if you do not harm, harm will not come back onto you. It's a karma thing.
There is no possible way to practice without harming someone, in someway. No, it's not evil. Evil is a concept in your head.

I'm not saying that there is no way to practice without harming anybody, but doing it intentionally isn't part of the wiccan practice

Would you kill Hitler?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

CursedExile

The Wiccan Rede states not to harm others it underlines the significance of the karmic law.

I don't think the rede is at all connected to karma... I mean, you accrue karma by not living your dharma correctly. If your religion is not dharmic, I don't understand how karma can apply.

I'm sure we had a thread on this somewhere....

Quote:

Neo-paganism is about freewill. That is our gift as witches.

Please don't imply that all Neo-Pagans are witches or vice versa.  

[CursedExile]

Sanguina Cruenta

I don't think the rede is at all connected to karma... I mean, you accrue karma by not living your dharma correctly. If your religion is not dharmic, I don't understand how karma can apply.

I'm sure we had a thread on this somewhere....

"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow."

That is stating the Law of Three otherwise known as the Karmic Law. And the term witch, however incorrectly used generally to dub all Neo-pagans is not by any means a negative title.