Solitary Eclectic Wiccans brings to mind...?

[Esiris]

Dianda Panda

Aah, I see.
It sounds easier than I thought.

Being eclectic in a respectful way can be harder than it first looks.
I think the ability to sit at a computer or even looking at a cell phone- and be able to pull up huge amounts of information about religions all around the world makes it so people dive head first into all that information without thinking about if it is right or not.

I know a Universalist group that wanted to teach it's members about Voudon. The made some very pretty stylized Veve and bought a tray and some cowry shells off the internet and a young woman demonstrated Ifa- except she didn't. She went through all the motions- but Ifa is a very serious practice, and everything has to be done just right or you'll anger Papa Loko.

The woman had never even undergone Kanzo- what she was doing was reading something off the internet and then mimicking it without understanding it.

People are free to search out their spiritual calling, there are lots of Houses, some of which cost money (to make up for time and materials used for the Kanzo) some of which are free. Some only accept people of certain races, genders and orientations- others will accept everyone as long as they are called and the Ifa says they need to be initiated.

Information on Voudon is a google search away- but google won't tell you if the information was published by a Mambo or Houngan who was called to do that, if it was someone trying to make a quick buck or if it was published by someone who used their position of power to force a priest or priestess to tell them things. When you read the older books on Voudon there's a lot of stuff in them that makes the religion seem like superstitious nonsense and scary. It's mostly written by White Christians who wanted to "show The Devil amongst the Niggers" (a direct quote from the Mambo I used to see when I lived in Georgia).

They didn't care about what Voudon really was- about faith and sacrifice and family. They had their motives- money and racism, and that shaped what they wrote. A lot of that stuff is still around today. It finds it's way into lessons like the one that the woman was teaching that day- that if people like her want something, they'll find a way to take it or fake it.

So if someone is eclectic, they have to consider the source- how did this information come to light? Did they hurt someone? Did they lie or break their word? Did the people give it willingly? Was it given so people could follow it or was it given so that people could understand- but not practice it without converting or stuff?

Lots of things that make up eclectic practices come from people who offer up their religions willingly. Sometimes the only thing needed to join these religions was the ability to speak the language- so Eclectic Pagans can draw from a good number of things, but we have to really ask if doing it is right and does it make sense when put along side other things.

Here's an example of things making sense- Norse pagans put blood on their runes to make them runes. Some Eclectics blood other tools too- to build a bond and make them sacred. In Voudon (and I think Santeria too) your necklaces are sacred, and you don't put heat to them- blood is hot, so you don't blood them. If you were going to try and practice Hoodoo, and you wanted necklaces like those in Voudon and Santeria- you wouldn't consecrate them by putting blood on them, just because you blood runes. The practices are exclusive of each other.

When we get swept up in how fascinating something is or how good it makes us feel- it can be hard to keep these important questions in mind. I know I have made mistakes and done things to make up for them too. The best way to be an ethical eclectic is to ask lots of questions, learn about the sources of the information and the cultures that they came from.

Can I?
Should I?
Does it make sense?  

[streetwisekitty]

Wow, I didn't expect to get so many replies with so much depth! I'll start with your replies, Cruenta.

Sanguina Cruenta

Ditheism alone is just a deity concept. The two deities in question that you're worshipping may not be the deities of Wicca.

I'm a little confused here. I've always thought that Wiccans - covens or otherwise choose their gods. Are you saying that there is a distinct pair of Lord and Lady? Isn't it that any pantheon can be used in Wicca?

Sanguina Cruenta

Self-initiation as a concept doesn't make a lot of sense. Initiation is a way of bringing someone into a group and presenting them with something - in this case, the names of the deities and the first of the mysteries. You can't give these things to yourself, because you don't have them to begin with. You can't bring yourself into something that you aren't already a part of.

I see what you're getting at here. Looking at your way of thinking, I find myself inclined to agree with you but at the same time - can't you find these things through experimentation?

Sanguina Cruenta

If you're not comfortable calling yourself a witch, don't call yourself a witch. You may technically be one, but it's a title that can take you a while to "earn" in yourself. Eclectic Neo-Pagan is the general go-to term, but you might want to throw in other relevant terms depending on what way your faith goes. Ditheistic Neo-Pagan works fine.

The reason I'm not comfortable calling myself a witch is because while I celebrate pagan holidays and do the occasional spell - I'm not necessarily a practicing witch. My focus lies in cultivating my relationship with my gods - through rituals and learning, etc.

Sanguina Cruenta

For some reason I quite like the way Cunningham writes, even though I disagree with much of what he says. One could argue that he created solitary Wicca, but one would quickly be disavowed of one's position when one was asked to support how Cunningham's religion was Wicca. It's a nice little tradition of religious witchcraft he created, but it doesn't share much in common with Wicca.

I like what Viz said.

streetwisekitty

Wrote:
So you see Eclectic Wiccan as being entirely different from the Traidtional Wiccan path but still connected the same way the Roman and Greek Pantheons are connected?

Viz_22

Actually, that's a good way of putting it....And yes, separate but connected. Not the same, but similar paths. This is my opinion and how I see it.

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

streetwisekitty

I'm a little confused here. I've always thought that Wiccans - covens or otherwise choose their gods. Are you saying that there is a distinct pair of Lord and Lady? Isn't it that any pantheon can be used in Wicca?

There are two distinct deities worshipped in Wicca, yes. Individual Wiccans might be soft polytheists in the sense that they believe all deities are aspects of two deities, but regardless of their interpretation, the gods of Wicca are two particular deities with particular names. You can't take deities from other religions and plug them into these rituals, because a) the rites of Wicca are written for the gods of Wicca, and b) those rites have particular roles that gods of other pantheons are unlikely to properly fill, and it's not our place to ask them to do that.

Sanguina Cruenta

I see what you're getting at here. Looking at your way of thinking, I find myself inclined to agree with you but at the same time - can't you find these things through experimentation?

You can find a lot of things through experimentation. But these things are unlikely to be the same things that you find in Wicca. Morg gave a good example of this once, I think... it was about the mysteries inherent in a sunset. You and I will look at a sunset and we may experience a mystery. But we'll do it differently, because our minds are different. In Wiccan ritual, the rituals are set up in such a way as to introduce mysteries to the adherents. These mysteries are Wiccan in nature because of the way in which that mystery is experienced.

Quote:

The reason I'm not comfortable calling myself a witch is because while I celebrate pagan holidays and do the occasional spell - I'm not necessarily a practicing witch. My focus lies in cultivating my relationship with my gods - through rituals and learning, etc.

That's fine. That's your prerogative. If you don't think of yourself as a witch, don't use the word. smile

Quote:

Actually, that's a good way of putting it....And yes, separate but connected. Not the same, but similar paths. This is my opinion and how I see it.

Similar in what ways, though? They do have similarities, but there aren't many, just because of the way in which the religions function and are practiced. I think the differences are deeper than the similarities, which are certainly there but more, for lack of a better word, superficial.  

[Viz_22]

Sanguina Cruenta

Quote:

Actually, that's a good way of putting it....And yes, separate but connected. Not the same, but similar paths. This is my opinion and how I see it.

Similar in what ways, though? They do have similarities, but there aren't many, just because of the way in which the religions function and are practiced. I think the differences are deeper than the similarities, which are certainly there but more, for lack of a better word, superficial.

I'll admit that I can't be clear on that and it's probably influence by an author.

I'm thinking that a reluctance of "solitary wiccans" is that what else is there to call themselves? Neo-Pagan, I get that.... But maybe the title isn't specific enough for them and they want something definite and the media loops solitaries with the initiates.  

[VidenLight]

very interesing  

[ncsweet]

streetwisekitty

The reason I'm not comfortable calling myself a witch is because while I celebrate pagan holidays and do the occasional spell - I'm not necessarily a practicing witch. My focus lies in cultivating my relationship with my gods - through rituals and learning, etc.

If you aren't comfortable calling yourself a Witch, then Wicca probably isn't what you are looking for anyways - as all Wiccans are Witches, and Witchcraft is an inherent part of practicing Wicca. (being that it is a Witchcult and all xd )

Viz_22

Sanguina Cruenta

Quote:

Actually, that's a good way of putting it....And yes, separate but connected. Not the same, but similar paths. This is my opinion and how I see it.

Similar in what ways, though? They do have similarities, but there aren't many, just because of the way in which the religions function and are practiced. I think the differences are deeper than the similarities, which are certainly there but more, for lack of a better word, superficial.

I'll admit that I can't be clear on that and it's probably influence by an author.

I'm thinking that a reluctance of "solitary wiccans" is that what else is there to call themselves? Neo-Pagan, I get that.... But maybe the title isn't specific enough for them and they want something definite and the media loops solitaries with the initiates.

The media "tells" us a lot of stuff all the time - it doesn't make it right (or the truth). Even though it may seem easier to call oneself "Wiccan" - if it doesn't really describe what one is, how is it a better choice?

The good thing is that there are literally tons of different Pagan paths and religions out there. It's just a matter of figuring out what exactly it is that is calling to you, and seeing if there are other established paths that fit more closely.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Viz_22

I'm thinking that a reluctance of "solitary wiccans" is that what else is there to call themselves? Neo-Pagan, I get that.... But maybe the title isn't specific enough for them and they want something definite and the media loops solitaries with the initiates.

I completely understand that reluctance - it's one of the first issues I found with the whole thing when I first discovered what Wicca was. I suggested more than once finding another name for "solitary Wicca" on the basis that non-Wiccans would be less likely to cling to the term if there was another term they had a proper right to.

However, I soon realised that there's not actually all that much tying one "solitary Wiccan" to another. Depending on where they get their information and their own ideas and opinions, the beliefs and practices of individuals can vary widely. There's no point in finding a name for this religion if it isn't one religion.

For example...
Some use rituals derived from Wiccan rituals, for example as described by Cunningham in "Living Wicca". Others don't perform rituals at all. Others perform rituals, but in quite different ways.
Some are soft polytheists, some are hard, some are monotheists, some are ditheists, some are pantheists. In Wicca this can happen and it isn't an issue, because in Wicca it's the practices and rituals that are of primary importance and through those rituals you form your deity understandings. In a possible "solitary Wicca" religion, beliefs may well be important to defining the religion.
Adherents of said hypothetical religion worship deities from a variety of pantheons and cultures. There are no specific deities of this religion.

If what you do isn't the same, and what you believe isn't the same, and who you worship isn't the same, there's not a whole heap that ties you together. I mean, at some point in your studies you'll reach a point where you're no longer satisfied with what you know and you want something deeper, but you can't find any books to point you in the right direction, and this is because there aren't any. There's no culture, no religious texts, no myths. All you have is what is available through Wiccan texts, and depending on your personal practice, these might be far removed from the deities you worship or what you've experienced religiously. That's because it's all based on the outside edge of something, rather than the whole of the thing - that is, Wicca.

It can be a fulfilling religion, but you have to create that depth yourself through your experiences, or start deepening your research into other Pagan religions, even if its to aid your eclecticism. People often end up finding other Pagan religions that fit them well this way. I know I did.  

[Viz_22]

I see what you mean.... Not every solitary practices the same and vary in all different ways.

I'm not a soft polytheist by any means, and I believe that each deity described in the myths throughout history and around the world are each their own being and are not aspects of another, greater deity (be it a god or goddess). But I focus my attention on two dual deities and perform rituals on the Sabbats and the full moon Esbats. Of course they aren't that great....I don't have space for anything too involved right now and in my dorm I can't have open flames (so no candles or incense >.<).

But I'm doing what I can anyway.... I'm mostly at a loss as to where to place myself. I know I'm not a traditional Wiccan, and that's about as far as I know. But I do know I'm a witch....

I just hate how I can't find any books focusing on other paths other than "solitary Wicca". My area is not the best... and my Uni's library is less helpful than the bookstore in this town (why don't I have my own transport gonk ) And I prefer reading books rather than looking on the internet since a lot of what I end up finding is either something that isn't right for me or "solitary Wicca".  

[surukio]

Viz_22

I just hate how I can't find any books focusing on other paths other than "solitary Wicca". My area is not the best... and my Uni's library is less helpful than the bookstore in this town (why don't I have my own transport gonk ) And I prefer reading books rather than looking on the internet since a lot of what I end up finding is either something that isn't right for me or "solitary Wicca".

hmm it all depends cause like you i had issues with things [consitereing i'm a practicing vodousant] the best thing to find is someone who practices in a similar vein with the same or similar dieties, for me it was haitan vodou, for you it might be something entirely different.

information wise, some is relevant while some must be kept sacred and oath bound to that belief system.  

[Viz_22]

surukio

Viz_22

I just hate how I can't find any books focusing on other paths other than "solitary Wicca". My area is not the best... and my Uni's library is less helpful than the bookstore in this town (why don't I have my own transport gonk ) And I prefer reading books rather than looking on the internet since a lot of what I end up finding is either something that isn't right for me or "solitary Wicca".

hmm it all depends cause like you i had issues with things [consitereing i'm a practicing vodousant] the best thing to find is someone who practices in a similar vein with the same or similar dieties, for me it was haitan vodou, for you it might be something entirely different.

information wise, some is relevant while some must be kept sacred and oath bound to that belief system.

I've been unable to find anyone.... then again I'm not exactly how to search my university for any one with a similar path.... there isn't exactly a pagan organization here (I came for writing and didn't bother to check up on organizations since I assumed none in my state wouldn't have one, though I'm betting I'm WRONG XD). And I don't exactly feel comfortable trying to start a pagan organization when I'm not sure how to find people to help start one, so.... my only hope is the Pagan Pride Day in my home town if I can ever manage to attend! GAH gonk  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Viz_22

I see what you mean.... Not every solitary practices the same and vary in all different ways.

Yup. But there are particular branches of it that have formed into their own religions, such as Standing Stone, Buckland's Seax, even Ravenwolf's lot have a fairly standardised practice from what I understand, though the thought of it makes me quite ill. What's difficult from an eclectic's point of view is that if you've been practising for a while alone and then you come to join a group of no set tradition or religion, you have to compromise something in order to fit with the coven's practices. That always annoyed me personally when I was eclectic.

Quote:

I'm not a soft polytheist by any means, and I believe that each deity described in the myths throughout history and around the world are each their own being and are not aspects of another, greater deity (be it a god or goddess). But I focus my attention on two dual deities and perform rituals on the Sabbats and the full moon Esbats. Of course they aren't that great....I don't have space for anything too involved right now and in my dorm I can't have open flames (so no candles or incense >.<).

I'll give you a little background on my own practice here. I worship two deities also. But being who I am, I was interested in various mythologies. I started with the Greeks, then researched the Norse and found myself pulled into Heathenry. So, I am now a Heathen. But, I still practice my religious, ditheistic witchcraft. The religions are fairly separate in their own rights, and I practice them both to my satisfaction.

The issue for you is that you're forming your own tradition of ditheistic whatever (I'm unsure whether you consider it a form of religious witchcraft) and that can take quite some time. Myself, I've started working out the specifics of what I'm doing and how it all ties together and hashing things out structure-wise in the last couple of years - but I've been practising for a decade now. It's taken that long for myself and what I do to evolve to the point where I could develop it into what it is now. I'm still developing it. It's tricky, and it's an adventure. If that sort of thing isn't for you, that's okay. You can keep searching, and if you find a structure somewhere else that works for you, that's great.

The minor trouble is, if you're personally seeking Wicca, that if you find it and get initiated you may find the deities of Wicca are different from the two you are currently worshipping, which leaves you in a position where you're serving two deities and still working out your own practice with the two you started with wink

Ask them what they want. Then go from there. They might lead you somewhere interesting.

Quote:

But I'm doing what I can anyway.... I'm mostly at a loss as to where to place myself. I know I'm not a traditional Wiccan, and that's about as far as I know. But I do know I'm a witch....

Labels help is anchor ourselves down. I can understand that. Finding a particular tradition or... "brand", I guess, of witchcraft may help you. Green witchcraft, kitchen witchcraft, etc... I don't mean change your practice, but there may be a term out there that's applicable to what you do. It's a silly idea, but pull out terms that you feel are important to your practice and chuck them into google along with "witchcraft". You may find others with similar practices that way.

Quote:

I just hate how I can't find any books focusing on other paths other than "solitary Wicca". My area is not the best... and my Uni's library is less helpful than the bookstore in this town (why don't I have my own transport gonk ) And I prefer reading books rather than looking on the internet since a lot of what I end up finding is either something that isn't right for me or "solitary Wicca".

I prefer reading books, too.
Well... what are you after? Are you looking for books on Wicca here, or other possible religions to read up on? What do you find interesting? What elements of religion are important to you? I'm sure someone here will have some suggestions.  

[Viz_22]

Sanguina Cruenta

Yup. But there are particular branches of it that have formed into their own religions, such as Standing Stone, Buckland's Seax, even Ravenwolf's lot have a fairly standardised practice from what I understand, though the thought of it makes me quite ill. What's difficult from an eclectic's point of view is that if you've been practising for a while alone and then you come to join a group of no set tradition or religion, you have to compromise something in order to fit with the coven's practices. That always annoyed me personally when I was eclectic.

I guess part of my problem is that I'm still starting out, I only started practicing in March....So I'm still quite new.... Something I hate, but I know I'm definitely on the right track, I've been slowly moving in this direction for the past..... seven years or so without actually knowing where I've been headed. A slow discovery, but I can't say that I would change it for a different experience~ I like how I've "journeyed" forward in this direction without anyone actually telling me what to do, I didn't even know what was going on, so I almost see it as being fun... Though there are definitely not-fun parts of my "journey".

Sanguina Cruenta

I'll give you a little background on my own practice here. I worship two deities also. But being who I am, I was interested in various mythologies. I started with the Greeks, then researched the Norse and found myself pulled into Heathenry. So, I am now a Heathen. But, I still practice my religious, ditheistic witchcraft. The religions are fairly separate in their own rights, and I practice them both to my satisfaction.

The issue for you is that you're forming your own tradition of ditheistic whatever (I'm unsure whether you consider it a form of religious witchcraft) and that can take quite some time. Myself, I've started working out the specifics of what I'm doing and how it all ties together and hashing things out structure-wise in the last couple of years - but I've been practising for a decade now. It's taken that long for myself and what I do to evolve to the point where I could develop it into what it is now. I'm still developing it. It's tricky, and it's an adventure. If that sort of thing isn't for you, that's okay. You can keep searching, and if you find a structure somewhere else that works for you, that's great.

The minor trouble is, if you're personally seeking Wicca, that if you find it and get initiated you may find the deities of Wicca are different from the two you are currently worshipping, which leaves you in a position where you're serving two deities and still working out your own practice with the two you started with wink

Ask them what they want. Then go from there. They might lead you somewhere interesting.

I do see it as a form of religious witchcraft, I see no problem putting the two together for myself. But as I'm looking around and hearing what others have to say, I'm probably not looking for Wicca. If only because I'm uncomfortable going skyclad in front of other people and I'd rather not have someone not extremely close to me perform the five fold kiss or whatever for initiation.....Being that close and personal to my body is something I'd rather do in a different setting..... That...just isn't for me.

I preferred how the solitary system was described by Cunningham, but while Standing Stones might work, I don't follow it right now... especially with how I cast my circle.... I do something different than he does. But I do like the idea of the tools, and so I guess I'm borrowing that aspect as I'm currently saving money to buy an athame and then a wand.....

I go home Friday, so I was planning on asking where I stand in a religious context. If it end up being my own tradition for myself, I wonder what label will go with it lol.

Sanguina Cruenta

Labels help is anchor ourselves down. I can understand that. Finding a particular tradition or... "brand", I guess, of witchcraft may help you. Green witchcraft, kitchen witchcraft, etc... I don't mean change your practice, but there may be a term out there that's applicable to what you do. It's a silly idea, but pull out terms that you feel are important to your practice and chuck them into google along with "witchcraft". You may find others with similar practices that way.

I think we label or feel compelled to label ourselves because of something psychological. They help define who we are...sorta. But as silly as it sounds, (not really) I'll try it when my uni's net isn't so slow~

Sanguina Cruenta

I prefer reading books, too.
Well... what are you after? Are you looking for books on Wicca here, or other possible religions to read up on? What do you find interesting? What elements of religion are important to you? I'm sure someone here will have some suggestions.

I'm msotly after information on different religions involving witchcraft or magic (some might not consider some forms of magic witchcraft I'm guessing....) But what I find at the library here are books on the salem witch trials and a sociological study on teenage wtiches (most were solitary and the book interchanged Wicca and witch only because the people they interviewed did so....so that wasnt really helpful. The only other book they had on the shelf wats Witchcraft Today by Gardner. There's also the book that I just finished by Leo Ruckbie (I think that's how you spell it....I'm not looking at it) which talked about the history and how Gardner borrowed from Crowley and how all claims of historical legitimacy wasn't proved and probably wrong and that initiation was most often than not sexual (which helped me see that Wicca isn't for me if that's part of the traditional initiation).

I'd go into more that I want but I'm sick of waiting for my sentence to finish typing to see wehre I'm at. I think I type too fast sometimes.....  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Viz_22

I guess part of my problem is that I'm still starting out, I only started practicing in March....So I'm still quite new.... Something I hate, but I know I'm definitely on the right track, I've been slowly moving in this direction for the past..... seven years or so without actually knowing where I've been headed. A slow discovery, but I can't say that I would change it for a different experience~ I like how I've "journeyed" forward in this direction without anyone actually telling me what to do, I didn't even know what was going on, so I almost see it as being fun... Though there are definitely not-fun parts of my "journey".

Oh no, dude, don't hate it! The starting out part is all exciting and fun and you haven't yet turned into a bitter bitter person like the rest of us xd

Quote:

I do see it as a form of religious witchcraft, I see no problem putting the two together for myself. But as I'm looking around and hearing what others have to say, I'm probably not looking for Wicca. If only because I'm uncomfortable going skyclad in front of other people and I'd rather not have someone not extremely close to me perform the five fold kiss or whatever for initiation.....Being that close and personal to my body is something I'd rather do in a different setting..... That...just isn't for me.

I preferred how the solitary system was described by Cunningham, but while Standing Stones might work, I don't follow it right now... especially with how I cast my circle.... I do something different than he does. But I do like the idea of the tools, and so I guess I'm borrowing that aspect as I'm currently saving money to buy an athame and then a wand.....

The tools are in no way specific to Standing Stone - in fact an athame, because of the things "done" to it in order to make it an athame, is rather specific to Wiccan practice. For more info on tools generally, as well as making your own, I recommend "The Magick Toolbox" by Carl Neal.

But you're just starting out. No need to pick one path right now. If you want a particular word to describe what you're doing, "seeker" might apply.  

[Viz_22]

Sanguina Cruenta

Oh no, dude, don't hate it! The starting out part is all exciting and fun and you haven't yet turned into a bitter bitter person like the rest of us xd

Actually, I hope never to become bitter in the end of the process xp I feel like I'm moving away from bitterness xd I used to be so angry and I felt violent all the time and I hated everything... If anything, I like where I'm headed much better than I was at the original starting point 3nodding

Sanguina Cruenta

The tools are in no way specific to Standing Stone - in fact an athame, because of the things "done" to it in order to make it an athame, is rather specific to Wiccan practice. For more info on tools generally, as well as making your own, I recommend "The Magick Toolbox" by Carl Neal.

But you're just starting out. No need to pick one path right now. If you want a particular word to describe what you're doing, "seeker" might apply.

Sounds like a fun read *booknerd* Hopefully I can find it! And hopefully I'll have money to buy it because I doubt it's at the library gonk I thought libraries were supposed to be helpful in looking things up and what not. I'll have to take a look on the order thing too to see if might be at another school....  

[Adalyna]

I posted a thread about this on M&R I shoulda looked here this is basically the same topic.

To me it really feels like, there is a certain branch of eclecticism, or style of eclecticism, that has a nasty habit of calling itself Wicca, and I really feel that... it sort of craves a name for itself. I wouldn't necessarily its just about wanting a name for my personal path because not everything I do is based on this eclectic path, as believing in 6 deities specifically isn't something I see very often. but it's been so adamant about calling itself Wicca, I feel this religion needs some kind of name for itself that isn't pejorative.

Does anyone else agree with me that if "not wicca" had something else to call itself, it would stop calling itself Wicca? The problem with simply "eclectic neo-pagan" is that it is simply too broad.