WHAT IS PAGANISM?

[Rebel_Dynasty]

Azareas Aquarinus

I follow some of the "Standing Stone" stuff. Mind you, Scott's ways has been mostly from what I pull from. Since his books were all I had when I first started. I'm a soft polytheist. I worship the Goddess and God. I don't name them, just envision them to how I feel. And they answer when I call, which is fulfilling to me.

I want to research into Celtic, Egyptian and Greek Paganism. A few Greek deities interest me.

Much the same. I still enjoy his books, even though I know now that the titles were incorrect. But, I think Scott Cunningham was a brilliant person, regardless.

When it comes to deities, I see them as different faces of the same Goddess and God. I don't usually call on specific ones, but sometimes, I do like using their energies. I never mix two pantheons though, out of respect for them.  

[Esiris]

Rebel_Dynasty

When it comes to deities, I see them as different faces of the same Goddess and God.

I've never been able to make sense of that idea- could you help? The problem I always have is that since there are tales about how the gods interact with each other, sometimes even killing, or sexually assualting one another, or punishing people for defiling their temples by bringing in offerings that other gods like- it's hard for me to see them as the same gods doing that do themselves. How does that work in how you view the gods?

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I do like using their energies.

I don't know anyone who likes being "used"- I'm not sure gods would like it either. cat_sweatdrop  

[Rebel_Dynasty]

Esiris

Rebel_Dynasty

When it comes to deities, I see them as different faces of the same Goddess and God.

I've never been able to make sense of that idea- could you help? The problem I always have is that since there are tales about how the gods interact with each other, sometimes even killing, or sexually assualting one another, or punishing people for defiling their temples by bringing in offerings that other gods like- it's hard for me to see them as the same gods doing that do themselves. How does that work in how you view the gods?

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I do like using their energies.

I don't know anyone who likes being "used"- I'm not sure gods would like it either. cat_sweatdrop

To the first, it's rare when when I call upon the different aspects. When I do, I'm cautious about which ones I call upon. I suppose I don't picture them quite the way they are depicted in their stories. Usually, in those times when I do feel the need to invoke particular god and goddess energies, I focus on their positive aspects, since I do not wish to invoke their more aggressive ones.

To the second, "use" was a poor choice of words on my part. ^^; The irony of striving to be a writer is that often times, I have trouble saying things exactly the way I mean to say them, lol.

But, like I said, it's pretty rare for me to call upon specific gods and goddesses. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I did so. surprised Probably a year or so ago, at least. Most of the time, I'm quite happy with the Lord and Lady. I usually envision the Goddess as an Earth mother, adourned with plantlife. The God is more bestial in nature when I envision him, though he too, will have ties to plantlife.

Of course, how I picture them also depends on what inspires me at the time.

I hope I've answered your questions. I have a bad habit of wandering off-topic. A lot as of late, it seems.  

[Esiris]

Rebel_Dynasty

To the first, it's rare when when I call upon the different aspects. When I do, I'm cautious about which ones I call upon. I suppose I don't picture them quite the way they are depicted in their stories. Usually, in those times when I do feel the need to invoke particular god and goddess energies, I focus on their positive aspects, since I do not wish to invoke their more aggressive ones.

cat_sweatdrop That didn't help make things clearer.
If you don't relate to them by the lore about them, why call on them specifically by name at all? Isn't that kind of like treating them like they're "less than", by dividing them up into stereotypes based on the lore? Like, there are lots of parts to who I am, but calling me up to join my friend for ritual- she gets me, all of me and all of what I carry with me.

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To the second, "use" was a poor choice of words on my part. ^^; The irony of striving to be a writer is that often times, I have trouble saying things exactly the way I mean to say them, lol.

I know how that is- I was just drawing your attention to it, because that kind of thing can creep into rituals and can, from what I've seen, cause problems.

It's kind of a mirror of saying "god and goddess energies" too.

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But, like I said, it's pretty rare for me to call upon specific gods and goddesses. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I did so. surprised Probably a year or so ago, at least. Most of the time, I'm quite happy with the Lord and Lady. I usually envision the Goddess as an Earth mother, adourned with plantlife. The God is more bestial in nature when I envision him, though he too, will have ties to plantlife.

Do you include anyone who isn't cisgendered or hetero? Have you ever gotten the wrong god and goddess because of how vague the calling is or do you use other things to make sure that doesn't happen?

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I hope I've answered your questions. I have a bad habit of wandering off-topic. A lot as of late, it seems.

It's ok- I don't mind posting back and forth and I don't expect you or me to get it perfect the first time we post. cat_3nodding  

[Rebel_Dynasty]

Esiris

cat_sweatdrop That didn't help make things clearer.
If you don't relate to them by the lore about them, why call on them specifically by name at all? Isn't that kind of like treating them like they're "less than", by dividing them up into stereotypes based on the lore? Like, there are lots of parts to who I am, but calling me up to join my friend for ritual- she gets me, all of me and all of what I carry with me.

Don't get me wrong, their lore is fascinating to me. However, I don't see the gods and goddesses of different pantheons as their own entities, but rather, as different faces of the same God and Goddess. Of course, I mean no disrespect to those who do view them as their own entities. It's kind of difficult to explain...

Okay, think of it this way; the intention behind my ritual is fertility (this was the case while trying to get pregnant with my daughter). For that ritual, I first had to decide what kind of energy I would like to work with. If I felt particularly moved by Egyptian energies, I would call upon Isis

As time has gone on though, I've been less inclined to call upon these different names. For one, it has occurred to me that something could go wrong, which is the last thing I would want. For two, I've gotten very comfortable with viewing them as the Lord and Lady. Though this simplifies their titles, I feel more bonded to them.

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I know how that is- I was just drawing your attention to it, because that kind of thing can creep into rituals and can, from what I've seen, cause problems.

It's kind of a mirror of saying "god and goddess energies" too.

Hmm. If this is the case, it sure would account for the few uncomfortable rituals I have had, along with some oddities that occurred after the fact. Like I said, I haven't called upon the different deity aspects all that often, so in all honesty, I'm not that experienced with it. Perhaps I should avoid it from here on out; or at least until I have a greater understanding.

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Do you include anyone who isn't cisgendered or hetero? Have you ever gotten the wrong god and goddess because of how vague the calling is or do you use other things to make sure that doesn't happen?

No, I can't say that I have. Once the circle is cast, I call the Elemental guardians, asking them to both protect and aid my ritual work. Even though the Lord and Lady don't have specific names to me, when I envision them, I see them quite clearly, and the energy I feel from them is always the same, always familiar. So far, I've been lucky, I guess.

Outside of the training you're undergoing with the coven (since you likely cannot tell me about it) have you had any strange occurrences? Trial and error seems to be a big part of things. I think for the most part, if I haven't done well in my ritual, it just doesn't work, period. Other times, a strange energy would hang around for awhile, until I would banish it (something I only resort to doing if the energy is disturbing or feels negative).

Some of the most positive and intense rituals I've ever had occurred early in my exploration into Neo-Paganism. Otherwise, they have been sporadic; successful rituals occur the majority of the time, but I find insights come when I least expect them to.Of course, there are times when ritual isn't performed as often as I'd like it to be. Sometimes, I'm just too tired or busy with other priorities.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Rebel_Dynasty

Esiris

cat_sweatdrop That didn't help make things clearer.
If you don't relate to them by the lore about them, why call on them specifically by name at all? Isn't that kind of like treating them like they're "less than", by dividing them up into stereotypes based on the lore? Like, there are lots of parts to who I am, but calling me up to join my friend for ritual- she gets me, all of me and all of what I carry with me.

Don't get me wrong, their lore is fascinating to me. However, I don't see the gods and goddesses of different pantheons as their own entities, but rather, as different faces of the same God and Goddess. Of course, I mean no disrespect to those who do view them as their own entities. It's kind of difficult to explain...

That brings us back, though, to Esiris's original questions, which you didn't really answer the first time. How do you reconcile this with the gods acting violently towards one another if they're all the same entities? Or are you saying that you ignore these stories entirely? And if you're ignoring them, as Esiris says, why bother calling on these different "faces"?

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Okay, think of it this way; the intention behind my ritual is fertility (this was the case while trying to get pregnant with my daughter). For that ritual, I first had to decide what kind of energy I would like to work with. If I felt particularly moved by Egyptian energies, I would call upon Isis

Not really following. You're not working with a "kind of energy", you're asking your goddess for help. If you only believe in one goddess, and you ask her for everything, what does it matter which name you use to call on her?

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As time has gone on though, I've been less inclined to call upon these different names. For one, it has occurred to me that something could go wrong, which is the last thing I would want. For two, I've gotten very comfortable with viewing them as the Lord and Lady. Though this simplifies their titles, I feel more bonded to them.

Just out of interest, how could things go wrong?  

[Rebel_Dynasty]

Sanguina Cruenta

That brings us back, though, to Esiris's original questions, which you didn't really answer the first time. How do you reconcile this with the gods acting violently towards one another if they're all the same entities? Or are you saying that you ignore these stories entirely? And if you're ignoring them, as Esiris says, why bother calling on these different "faces"?

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean. Why would the gods act violently toward one another? With the limited amount of times I've called on different aspects, I haven't called upon any whom would be incompatible with one another. I would either only call on one specifically. If I called upon two, it would only be if they were consorts. Or do you mean that the specific aspects I call upon during one ritual would wind up violent towards deities from a different pantheon that I called upon during a different ritual? If this is the case...hmmm. I don't think the issue ever came up, or perhaps I never gave it as much thought as I should have. As I stated a few times already, it's not something that has occurred often, and isn't likely to continue.

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Not really following. You're not working with a "kind of energy", you're asking your goddess for help. If you only believe in one goddess, and you ask her for everything, what does it matter which name you use to call on her?

I suppose it doesn't really matter which name I used to call upon her; it's more of how I might have been feeling at the time, what I felt pulled toward at the time.

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Just out of interest, how could things go wrong?

Incompatible deities/entities within a circle, not having enough knowledge of a particular deity or spirit, not being focused on the task at hand. I can't say for sure if anything would go wrong; just that I'd rather avoid it, if possible.

The thing I should note is this; in the earlier years of my practice, I was more prone to experimentation than I am now. This had its good points, but I'm certain it also had its less-than-stellar points as well. Like with any other potential source of power, it can be dangerous. Maybe not the way electricity can be, but tapping into forces someone doesn't fully understand may have set-backs or negative consequences. Even after seven years, I tend to be a bit wary. I'm not afraid of the gods, nor any other spirits or entities I work with. However, I respect them, and as such, I want to make sure I do things properly. There have been times I've had more trust in my abilities, and there are times I'm not sure they're as good as they ought to be by now. Couple that with the fact that I'm still working on just what exactly it is I believe in, what methods/tools/etc I prefer and/or appear to work best, and trying to find other things that I can incorporate into my work...well, that kind of leaves me a bit muddled. Sorry if my answers still don't contain much clarity. Hopefully, it's only temporary.  

[X-Yami-no-Ko-X]

Rebel_Dynasty

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean. Why would the gods act violently toward one another? With the limited amount of times I've called on different aspects, I haven't called upon any whom would be incompatible with one another. I would either only call on one specifically. If I called upon two, it would only be if they were consorts. Or do you mean that the specific aspects I call upon during one ritual would wind up violent towards deities from a different pantheon that I called upon during a different ritual? If this is the case...hmmm. I don't think the issue ever came up, or perhaps I never gave it as much thought as I should have. As I stated a few times already, it's not something that has occurred often, and isn't likely to continue.

I think what they're getting at, because I've often wondered too, if all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess does that mean that They'd be self-destructive because of the fact that not all of the gods or goddesses get along. Even within the same pantheon. Somewhat like what went down with Set and Heru.

Re-reading before I submitted, its not necessarily during ritual when you call upon Them that they're asking. Its about how you see Them as a whole that we're wondering about. Even outside of ritual.  

[Rebel_Dynasty]

X-Yami-no-Ko-X

Rebel_Dynasty

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean. Why would the gods act violently toward one another? With the limited amount of times I've called on different aspects, I haven't called upon any whom would be incompatible with one another. I would either only call on one specifically. If I called upon two, it would only be if they were consorts. Or do you mean that the specific aspects I call upon during one ritual would wind up violent towards deities from a different pantheon that I called upon during a different ritual? If this is the case...hmmm. I don't think the issue ever came up, or perhaps I never gave it as much thought as I should have. As I stated a few times already, it's not something that has occurred often, and isn't likely to continue.

I think what they're getting at, because I've often wondered too, if all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess does that mean that They'd be self-destructive because of the fact that not all of the gods or goddesses get along. Even within the same pantheon. Somewhat like what went down with Set and Heru.

Re-reading before I submitted, its not necessarily during ritual when you call upon Them that they're asking. Its about how you see Them as a whole that we're wondering about. Even outside of ritual.

I see Them as multi-faceted. Just like people, there is more to Them. They are capable of being creators, nurturing, gentle, loving, and patient. They are also capable of destruction, tough-love, impatience, and anger. I do not see Them as vengeful, nor do I believe they punish us. They allow us to make our own choices, while still giving us guidance when needed. I see Them as being part of everything. They aren't just a God and Goddess, out of reach. They reside within each person, each plant, animal, mineral, droplet of water, and flame. They can be heard in the rumbling of thunder, seen in the strike of lightning. Just as I see them in everything, I believe They connect everything. I believe our spiritual essence comes from Them when we first are born into the world, and that after we've experienced as many lives as we need to-individually-we return to their essence. During ritual, I envision them in literal archetype forms, but outside of ritual, I don't see them in one specific form, because I see their form in everything.

I think I do get what they may have been trying to say. Sadly, I don't really have an answer. Like I said to Sanguina, it's one of those things I probably should have put more thought into than I did.  

[Morgandria]

You're not looking at this the way hard polytheists do.

The Gods to us are distinct individual beings. They are not perfect. They are not infallible. They have unique personalities, likes, and dislikes. They have emotional responses that can be varied and passionate. They not only occupy a specific role for their particular cultures of origin, but they also reflect that culture's particular flavour. They aren't archetypes. They aren't fancy humanoid ways of displaying concepts. They are who They are.

What is holy to some Gods, is anathema to others. What defines a person's proper place or role in one culture, might be improper to another. Some deities hate each other, historically and in lore - whether it be within a single pantheon, or between two different ones. This gap is one that soft polytheism doesn't address - if a pantheon has two deities who represent polar opposites, how do you reconcile them as being a part of a singular being? Cramming all concepts and doctrines into a single over-arching deity really only leaves you with a fragmented, fractured deity with multiple personalities.

Furthermore, if all names are part of One, why bother differentiating between aspects using those names that did not originally reflect that kind of theism within the culture of origin? If you don't really believe there's a singular individual goddess named Artemis, for example, why bother using her name or her symbols or her lore at all? Surely it's irrelevant to the One. And such thinking is not far removed from the kind that allows you to 'substitute' one thing for another, without cultural appropriateness or consideration, if you decide it 'feels right'.

Which leads me to my last point: similar does not equal same. We do find different deities, in different cultures, associated with similar concepts. And it makes sense - people everywhere are concerned with their fertility, their money, their crops, etc. But just because Jim's a banker, and John's a banker, doesn't mean we can lump them together as the same person. And hard polytheism doesn't think it's correct to do so to the Gods, either.

Consider that sometimes similarities aren't similar enough: Mani and Ptah are moon Gods. You can't lump them into 'Moon' with other goddesses, and you can't lump them into "One God" based on the fact that they aren't solar. And there's a lot of that going on. Either both the One God and the One Goddess are both solar and lunar (which means the dichotomy many soft polytheists use is flawed and should just be 'One Deity'), or there are deities that cannot be aspects of the same entity without being disruptive to the whole. For example: if the Goddess is both a goddess of peace and a goddess of war, and the tenets of those aspect are diametrically opposed to each other, what happens? Does she fight with herself? Do they cancel each other out?

I can't speak for all hard poly folk, obviously, but soft poly seems to gloss over difficulties and gaps within its' theology and focus only on positive, feel-good aspects. There's no space for imperfection, or for uniqueness. I don't want to feel my Gods in all things. My Gods are not everywhere, and I don't need them to be. I like to know them through Their specific Mysteries and rites. And I like knowing my Gods make mistakes, play jokes, craft wonders, curse, heal, feast, fight, and ******** just like we do.

Generic sameness is -boring-. Reducing the Gods down to archetypes treats them poorly, making it easier to 'use' Them in any way you think is appropriate - rather than seeking out the ways They wish to be honoured.  

[Esiris]

Rebel_Dynasty

Why would the gods act violently toward one another?

I've read some lore where they are fighting over a lover, others where they are fighting over worshipers, some did it over an insult to their honor- when you read the myths and really get to know them, the reasons are more than I can think of at the moment.
I didn't think you'd get a lot of conflict by who you called into a circle, I was more just curious because it doesn't seem like it's a solid line of reason and I know I need consistency in my path- contradictions (instead of complexities) make it really hard for me to focus on what is happening spiritually.

Maybe this might help explain what I'm trying to understand- there are Loa that if you get hot blood from an animal sacrifice on their altar, you're in deep s**t. If the Loa are just faces of your one God or one Goddess, why would the Cool Loa be angry and make your life miserable, but the Hot Loa be ok with it?

Let's pick on two Loa specifically- Ezurli Freda is a cool Loa. Ezurli Dantor is a hot Loa. They're both Ezurli Loa- but one is Petro and the other is Rada.

If they're the same goddess, how do the legends make sense? Freda scared Dantor's face and Dantor stabbed Freda in the heart- does your goddess have a blade in her chest and scars on her face? If she doesn't- how does she reflect the other goddesses? Did she do that to herself or are the myths not true? If the lore about the Loa isn't true- where did it come from and how can anyone know if their lore about their gods is true?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Rebel_Dynasty

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean. Why would the gods act violently toward one another? With the limited amount of times I've called on different aspects, I haven't called upon any whom would be incompatible with one another.

I appreciate your respect for the gods - I think it's important within soft polytheism also. But I'm sort of trying to understand your perspective, which is where my questions are coming from. Don't think I'm saying your actions are wrong or anything, because I do think the respect you show in paying that attention to the lore is a good thing.

When I ask about the gods acting violently towards one another, I'm not talking about incompatibility (like Athena and Poseidon), I mean more when you look at the example Esiris gave, or when the Norse gods killed Loki's son. Does the god kill himself, then bind himself with his own intestines? How do you reconcile the elements of lore where two gods hate one another, or perform acts of violence towards one another, as being the same god?

Are you ignoring those elements of lore? If so, OK - but how do you decide what to ignore? If those elements of lore end up being important elements of who that god is, or from your perspective who that face or aspect is, how do you navigate around that in your own worship?

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Incompatible deities/entities within a circle, not having enough knowledge of a particular deity or spirit, not being focused on the task at hand. I can't say for sure if anything would go wrong; just that I'd rather avoid it, if possible.

I think that is wise, but I think it's wise because I'm coming from a hard polytheistic perspective. I'm trying to understand how that makes sense in a soft polytheistic perspective: if all particular deities are in fact parts, faces or aspects of another deity, why would it matter how much you know about them? They aren't "real" as such; they're just a part of your god. How can any deities be incompatible, if they're all parts of this god and this goddess? Wouldn't they all be compatible by default? How can things go wrong if they're just different interpretations of the same deities? And if things do go wrong, what does that mean?

Again I think the way you are going about things is wise and respectful, at least to a point, I've just never been able to understand the soft polytheistic view, so I'm playing Devil's Advocate a little in the attempt to pick your brain about it smile  

[Rebel_Dynasty]

I'm not a hard polytheist, but I don't think I can be considered a soft polytheist, either. This is where it gets confusing. I revere a Goddess and a God, which would label me ditheist, correct? I do understand what you're all saying, in regards to seeing the deities of other pantheons as archetypes, rather than as their own deities. The logic was flawed, in that regard, to worry that something might go wrong if I called on those different "faces", since I don't see them as their own deities.

I think the problem I have is, I enjoy the lore quite a bit. Some of the deities of different pantheons appeal to me a great deal. I think I sometimes have trouble separating my intrigue with their stories from what I actually believe.

Which brings us back to another issue; sometimes, I'm not entirely sure what it is I believe. Sometime I see my God and Goddess as literal, and at other times, I see them symbolically. Therefore, my answers lack clarity, because I lack clarity. I'm still trying to build on what my beliefs and practices are. There are things I am certain of, and other things I'm still trying to get the feel for.

This seems like a good time for me to take time to myself, at least an hour everyday away from all distraction, to really understand myself, and my beliefs.

Thanks to you all for pointing these things out to me. smile It's definitely given me something to consider, to think about.  

[User 27225319]

There are so many but I don't know which one calls out to me the most... I have a calling towards paganism but now that im seeing this least my soul feels uninspired :/  

[Morgandria]

Staring Berry

There are so many but I don't know which one calls out to me the most... I have a calling towards paganism but now that im seeing this least my soul feels uninspired :/

Can you clarify your statement? So many what - different pagan religions? Pantheons? Individual deities?

What drew you towards pagan religions in the first place? What inspired you originally?