Your Conception of the God and Goddess

[X-Yami-no-Ko-X]

Erise Crewe

xd It's cheesy but I love listening to you guys. Did you end up giving her the bracelets? and how do you give an offering to a god (or goddess) when you do does it disappear, or is it only symbolic and the item remains behind?

Yes I did end up giving them to Her. I had to rearrange my alter to do it so I would have a spot for them. And I love listening too which is why I'm semi-open to sharing. If I wasn't, I'd be a bit of a hypocrite.

It depends on the type of offering on what gets done with it. But its symbolic in a way. When offering something, in my path(because others may be a bit different), it is believed that the entity takes the spiritual portion of what's being offered (though I'm still trying to figure out exactly how that goes with offering Ma'at). When offering items to deities I often leave it on my alter until I decide (or get told cat_whee ) to us it. I usually come up with a prayer on the spot when I offer items. Food is set on the alter, or can even just be your table since I've heard of people offering every meal, and there's a specific prayer that goes with it. Then, after the deity(ies) have let you know They're done, you eat it. Offerings to the deities in my path should not go to waste. The only time offerings "go to waste" is when you offer food to the akhu (the dead). But then its better if you leave it out for the wildlife or water plants with it because then, atleast I see it as, serving Ma'at.

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On a random note, one of the reasons why I haven't been talking to anyone about my interest in witchcraft, no matter how tempted I am, is because either they're complete nonbelievers and politely find ways to try to tell you you're crazy emo or they end up trying to get you to do favors for them that're out of your comfort zone (i'm nowhere near that level yet). But with my wiccan friends back in school I was always really careful not to pry to much or ask anything inappropriate (probably why I don't know as much about it today haha) Nothing wrong with doing your own research though I'm enjoying the reading. I wonder if this is my 'pull' towards witchcraft. Up until now I have been perfectly content with not knowing, but then real life turned a corner to and now I feel powerless and think I need to find a way to protect myself via witchcraft. Would this count as a calling? I don't have any feeling of being 'at home' but I do feel compelled to continue learning.

Its possible that it is a calling. I'd say there's not any way to be absolutely sure if it is or not until you learn about it. I was kinda indenial (sorry. I just had to cat_whee ) about mine for years. I always had an interest in the mythology but my family taught me that Christianity was the only way. It wasn't until my senior year that I stopped and thought about it and then last year (Actually Dec '10) was when I started finally looking into a couple Pagan religions.

But I'd keep reading. Worse case, you find out it wasn't actually for you.  

[Erise Crewe]

X-Yami-no-Ko-X

I was kinda indenial (sorry. I just had to cat_whee ) about mine for years.

xd That's adorable rofl  

[X-Yami-no-Ko-X]

Erise Crewe

X-Yami-no-Ko-X

I was kinda indenial (sorry. I just had to cat_whee ) about mine for years.

xd That's adorable rofl

I found it years ago and it randomly popped in my head while I was typing so I just had to.  

[Esiris]

Erise Crewe

What do you think she looks like? How do you think she dresses? What does she sound like? How about the God? Do you think they look similar or different?

I'm a dedicant with a Wiccan coven, but I'm not really comfortable sharing my experiences, especially since I wouldn't have any way of knowing how they'd be used by others.

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People on the forums talk about being drawn to wicca or feeling at 'home' after finding wicca.

I feel a little like that- I've worked with lots of different people from different paths and the coven I am with now gives me that sense of home and family.

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I don't believe in god as a diety, but I don't lack spirituality. I believe that the changing of seasons, the falling of rain, snowflakes, twilight, nature are in a way divine. I think that if there is a sort of god it's a force, not a person.

If someone hasn't said it already- I think that's called pantheism.

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But the book was talking about how some witches practice 'skyclad' so I had nudity on the mind.

In the Decent of the Goddess she Lady is asked to disrobe and lay aside her garments and jewels.

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And please forgive me if I offended anyone by personifying a diety that I do not worship. I think that's frowned upon by some religions, I hope it's not the case in wicca.

For me there's something offputting about it- like it's ok if you don't think the basis for other people's religion is real, but why go on to talk about them- especially when I get the impression you don't know that much about Wicca, so you don't really have a way to shape the ideas about the Lord and Lady?

Sometimes I think about what other gods might look like- but I have read a myth or two about them and work with that to shape my ideas. cat_sweatdrop

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How do you visualize the god and goddess?

I mentioned before how I visualize gods I don't know- the ones I do know I visualize based on my experiences with them.

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Do you think that deities primarily exist in a human form, or do you think they only take a human form when appearing to mortals?

Our bodies are a result of evolution- physical matter and genes worked together to put our eyes where they are and our back in it's shape and our thumbs on our hands- I don't have a reason to believe that the gods evolved with a physical process, so I don't know if they have a form that is separate from what they look like when they deal with humans.

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Do you feel like you have a relationship with the deity of your choice?

It was a calling, not a choice for me- I chose to answer the calling, but I didn't handpick some gods and go for it.  

[Morgandria]

Erise Crewe

I've been reading up on a beginner's guide to wicca and witchcraft, and the book suggested conceptualizing the goddess. What do you think she looks like? How do you think she dresses? What does she sound like? How about the God? Do you think they look similar or different?

There's not much point in visualizing 'the Goddess' in regards to witchcraft unless you practice religious soft-poly pagan witchcraft. It isn't a given that witchcraft = theistic, or witchcraft = pagan.

As with Esiris, I work with a BTW coven, although I am an initiate at this point and not a seeker. How I conceive of Wicca's deities is formed completely from my experiences and my coven's inner court materials, and because of my oaths I don't feel at liberty to discuss them.

I want to say, though, that even within a coven, different initiates will have different conceptualizations about the Gods. Each individual member has their own experience of Wicca, within a common framework, and it's really hard to say there's a single definitive identifier other than that framework.

Also, not all Wiccans believe the Gods to be soft polytheistic, or One God and One Goddess. Many, myself included, believe them to be distinct, individual Gods - and cannot be conflated with other deities or reduced down to archetypes.

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People on the forums talk about being drawn to wicca or feeling at 'home' after finding wicca.

Unfortunately many people say this without having found actual Wicca, or without having any idea of the amount of hard work and patience it takes to 'find' that home. Wicca doesn't drop into your lap from above. You have to actively seek it out, to answer its' calling. Not everyone finds that Wicca is the 'home' they thought it would be.

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But artistically if I were to imagine the goddess she would be dressed in white, with long wavy green hair (because that's the color I associate with nature) and of a renaissance woman type figure (since I consider it to be beautiful, and a little meat on the bones has been used to represent fertility). As for the god, I imagine him as muscular, short brown hair (another earthy color), no shirt and leather pants xd sorry if that sounds like someone on the cover of a romance novel. But the book was talking about how some witches practice 'skyclad' so I had nudity on the mind. And please forgive me if I offended anyone by personifying a diety that I do not worship. I think that's frowned upon by some religions, I hope it's not the case in wicca.

Some people don't care, as they assume all deities are One, so they can be anything and everything. Others, like myself, find it offensive to assume or impose imagery over top of deities that contradicts the collective gnosis and lore that exists about them. You run into the former often, especially when a deity is forced into a modern role or archetype that they in no way represented in their historical form - for example, Hecate portrayed as a crone, when the Greeks thought of her as a maiden.

It's very difficult to try to personify deities when you know very little about them. Against my experiences, the figures you describe as the Lord and Lady do not make a very good match. Which is not uncommon - the nature of Wicca's gods are oathbound, and not shared with non-initiates. So people just make up whatever they feel is right, based on the little they know, and making guesses to fill in the gaps in their knowledge.

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Do you feel like you have a relationship with the deity of your choice?

I did not choose my deities, at any point. It is my experience that the Gods choose their own, not the other way around. We may try to get a deity's attention any way we like, but in the end they ultimately decide whether or not they wish to have a relationship of any kind with us. And very seldom does 'choosing' a deity work out for an individual - imagine it as if you've got some small child who follows you around pestering you for attention and favour, and I think you've got the idea of how it must appear to the Gods when we 'choose' them.  

[Erise Crewe]

Esiris

For me there's something offputting about it- like it's ok if you don't think the basis for other people's religion is real, but why go on to talk about them- especially when I get the impression you don't know that much about Wicca, so you don't really have a way to shape the ideas about the Lord and Lady?

Sometimes I think about what other gods might look like- but I have read a myth or two about them and work with that to shape my ideas. cat_sweatdrop

xd I'm sorry for being insensitive. I admit I didn't realize that it was as serious. sweatdrop The book I was reading suggested that I do it so I was wondering how everyone else felt about it.

And I understand what you're saying Morgandria, thank you for sharing your knowledge about your religion.  

[User 27225319]

Esiris

It was a calling, not a choice for me- I chose to answer the calling, but I didn't handpick some gods and go for it.

do you mind explaining what this calling felt like to you? Because i feel like im being drawn towards paganism but once i start researching i can't seem to find out what path to take.  

[Esiris]

Erise Crewe

xd I'm sorry for being insensitive. I admit I didn't realize that it was as serious. sweatdrop The book I was reading suggested that I do it so I was wondering how everyone else felt about it.

I don't think trying to picture them is the problem- I think it's like there is this assumption that you can do that without knowing about Wicca first. cat_sweatdrop

Staring Berry

do you mind explaining what this calling felt like to you? Because i feel like im being drawn towards paganism but once i start researching i can't seem to find out what path to take.

It's not really PG-13, but I made a bunch of mental connections and those connections felt kind of like hand-cranking a generator complete with electrical shock.

I described it to a few people, and they confirmed that there is a good chance that Wicca might help me better understand them.  

[User 27225319]

Esiris

It's not really PG-13, but I made a bunch of mental connections and those connections felt kind of like hand-cranking a generator complete with electrical shock.

I described it to a few people, and they confirmed that there is a good chance that Wicca might help me better understand them.

sounds... painful? Lol
You mean like you heard about it and suddenly were like "woah! I believe all this stuff, i must be wicca!" or was it more gradual like learning to believe in the lord and lady and slowly learning more about paganism?  

[Esiris]

Staring Berry

sounds... painful? Lol

You've never used a TENS unit. cat_whee

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You mean like you heard about it and suddenly were like "woah! I believe all this stuff, i must be wicca!"

It was more like "Holy cow! What the heck does this mean? I feel like there's so much more- but what?" Like there's a pressure trying to make me understand but there's too much in the way for me to really "get it".
So I talked to people hoping they could help me "get it", and instead I met people who said "We can't do this for you- but we can help you get what you need so you can do it yourself".

The first group I worked with wasn't really very helpful, but I found the coven I'm with now. I have never called myself a Wiccan though- I'm not an initiate.

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or was it more gradual like learning to believe in the lord and lady

I don't really "believe" in the Lord and Lady- believe isn't the right word. I have UPG about them, I know what it feels like to have them try and get me to understand by showing me little pieces of what they want me to learn. Belief isn't really a part of it- it's more about the experiences.

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and slowly learning more about paganism?

I don't really see "paganism" as it's own thing- I don't try and learn about "paganism", because it's so huge. I'm just trying to understand what is calling me to understand it.  

[Dr. H. Lecter]

I don't really worship or diefy the Lord and Lady. I follow and honor their cycle in the Sabbats, but aside from that, I have little to do with them. I venerate some other dieties, depending on the time of year and when needs to be done in a ritual, but mainly I focus on the Medicine Wheel, and what the animal spirits have to teach.

I try to listen to what each of them has to say, because each of them has wisdom to share and is worth listening to. From the noble and powerful Raven, to the humble turtle.  

[User 27225319]

Esiris

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The first group I worked with wasn't really very helpful, but I found the coven I'm with now. I have never called myself a Wiccan though- I'm not an initiate.

Really? so you think of it more as a culture then a religion?

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I don't really "believe" in the Lord and Lady- believe isn't the right word. I have UPG about them, I know what it feels like to have them try and get me to understand by showing me little pieces of what they want me to learn. Belief isn't really a part of it- it's more about the experiences.

Ok, so your saying someone could be wicca even if they don't necessarily believe they are real as long as they have the right spirit and stuff?

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Staring Berry

Really? so you think of it more as a culture then a religion?

What makes you say so?

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Ok, so your saying someone could be wicca even if they don't necessarily believe they are real as long as they have the right spirit and stuff?

The idea is that your experiences in ritual lend more to gnosis than belief. Gnosis means "knowledge". Esiris is making the distinction between something you believe to be so and something you have experienced.  

[Esiris]

Staring Berry

Really? so you think of it more as a culture then a religion?

It's a religion, but religions and denominations are subcultures.

To be Wiccan you have to be initiated- I'm just a dedicant, when/if I'm initiated, I'll be Wiccan.

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Ok, so your saying someone could be wicca even if they don't necessarily believe they are real as long as they have the right spirit and stuff?

I'm saying that I don't "believe" in the Lord and Lady in the same way I don't believe in how a strawberry tastes, I've tasted a strawberry and even if I could only describe it in vague terms- I can tell the difference between how a strawberry tastes and how an orange tastes- which makes sense since Wicca isn't about belief, but experiencing the Mysteries. I don't have the Wiccan mysteries, but I have something that is leading me to them.  

[Morgandria]

Staring Berry

Ok, so your saying someone could be wicca even if they don't necessarily believe they are real as long as they have the right spirit and stuff?

With Wicca, belief tends to be secondary, and individual. What defines Wicca is its' practices and methods, and what creates a person as a Wiccan is their experiences as they are exposed to these practices and learn these methods. Wicca is a Mystery faith - and Mysteries have to be experienced.
Individuals are free to shape their own beliefs around their experiences as makes sense to them, because those beliefs do not define Wicca or its' members.

A person prepares to become a Wiccan by studying with a coven, who gives them pre-initiatory materials to study. These are things that lay a groundwork for a person's initiation, but are not specifically Wiccan, or necessarily oathbound. At this point you are not a Wiccan - you are Seeking to become one, preparing your mind and spirit to grapple with the experience presented to you at initiation. Initiation is a life-changing event. It takes at least a year to fully absorb the changes it will create for you, and even longer as your understanding of the event evolves. Not everyone is suited to the work that comes after initiation. Many who Seek learn as they go that Wicca is not what they thought, and is not the correct path for them.

When a coven's priesthood decides that a Seeker is ready to join them (a year and a day is usually BS - more often than it takes at least two, or more, years to be ready), they are given an initiatory ritual. This initiation is not only the group's way of saying 'Yes, you are officially a member of our group', but it is a specifically-constructed ritual framework that exposes the new initiate to the specific Mysteries of Wicca. It is like a laying-on of hands, of sorts - the initiator passes on their lineage to the initiate through the ritual. A person is opened up and laid bare to the Gods of Wicca and their Mysteries - and thus connected to them, and all other persons who have done so before them. You become part of a brother-and-sisterhood. In essence, everybody gets on the same roller-coaster ride. The ride is exactly the same, every time - but not everybody experiences the ride in the same way.

The experience of those Mysteries as they are opened to the initiate lay the foundation are their first real step into Wicca - before this, they cannot be considered Wiccan, and are not taught Wicca-specific things. 'Wiccan' is a title, given by others who have gone the same route before you, and earned through hard work. This is why students before initiation are referred to as 'Seekers'.

Without this ritual, done correctly, no person can claim to be a Wiccan proper. If you have not stood the same test, If the ritual is incorrect, changed in some way, it will pass on Mysteries - but not the specific Mysteries that Wicca holds sacred, or the experience or understanding that is necessary to properly perform the rites of Wicca. You will not have the same connection to the same energy as Wicca.

I realize this is long-winded, but I really want you to understand that there's no way to believe your way into becoming a Wiccan. Wicca simply isn't about belief - it's experiential, based in practice.