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Soriku the Ookami

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:19 pm


...All I have to say...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:31 pm


Garek Maxwell
Eichorn
That's...not how copyright works. Work for hire, under copyright, only refers to work done for corporations. Such as if you work as an animator or concept artist, the studio has the rights, not the artist.

As an artist paid by commission, the artist retains ALL rights upon creation of the work. Rights only transfer should the artist sign over the rights. Usually the commissioner then has to pay an additional $200 or so. There is no legal grey area by them not stating changes can't be made, they still own the copyright and they have the right to fight it in court should they want to and have the money.


It depends on the country, and on the internet it could be anywhere.

While I admit I don't know much about copyright law, alteration of a work of art is something that is going to be legally grey. Fair use and all that good stuff that allows people to draw Micky Mouse without Disney breaking down their door and demanding thousands in compensation. You also have issues of a copyrighted character being drawn by someone else through commission. Lee owns the rights to his character. So now you have an even more grey area in which rights of the work is shared.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-ownership/c-commissioned.htm
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-ownership/c-jointauthors.htm
Lee could be argued to be a joint author.

Besides, if you want to get really picky, Lee violated copyright by displaying the art elsewhere without permission from the creator.

In the end, it really shouldn't matter. No furry artist worth their skill is going to seriously pursue legal action against a commissioner for altering their work. It's expensive and a mess and a half to deal with it. If anything, the only thing to result out of it is hurt feelings.

I'm going by US law since a good chunk of furry artists reside in the US.

Characters, for the most part, can't be copywritten. Disney is like the only company known to copyright characters on top of trademarking, and that's because their characters fall under a specific loophole. And, interestingly enough, Disney HAS sued people over their characters being used in hospitals and daycares and stuff.

And honestly, Lee only has rights to his character if he went to a trademark office and did so. Characters aren't automatically protected the way singular art pieces are.

I don't know laws regarding reposting, but it's not being redistributed with intent to profit so he's likely completely able to without legal ramifications. However, the artist can DMCA if they desire.

Editing and fanart do fall under parody and derivative works, which are protected however, I should point out.

Eichorn


Garek Maxwell

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:50 pm


Eichorn
Disney HAS sued people over their characters being used in hospitals and daycares and stuff.

And honestly, Lee only has rights to his character if he went to a trademark office and did so. Characters aren't automatically protected the way singular art pieces are.


Yeah, and a lot of companies use copyright as a weapon making the law constantly in flux or at least enforced in inconsistent ways. Some companies just ignore copyright law and threaten and fight their way around things anyway. For example, in Germany the copyright law is different in such a way that a large number of very popular (world famous even) typefaces should have been made public domain long ago. However, the company that owns the typefaces has not released them to the public as they should. Technically, if requested, they're supposed to give you them all. But they haven't, they won't, and will deny any such thing existing. They continue to sell what should be public domain to this day.

As far as characters go, it's still up in the air. Disney was just the worst of the worst for abusing copyright. It still could go either way with a good lawyer or a lot of money, which was mainly my point. Since it can go either way, the only result out of such an issue would be hurt feelings. sad
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:31 pm


Actually, I did consider erasing the bad wings, but realized it would probably fall under some legal problems like Acorn is saying.

Update:
I was about to agree to pay the extra $5 if she'd redraw the wings, but she came back and messaged me that she showed it to a friend and talked to her and can see how the wings are messed up, and agreed to fix them for the original asking price. I am now talking to her to get them fixed. After that I'll pay her, and considering the trouble I put her through, may consider giving her extra anyway.


However....

A drama shitstorm is brewing thanks to Furries being furries. Thankfully enough people agreed with me that the artist screwed up the image that they're watching my back, and they notified me to some harassment by other furries on FA and LJ.

When the artist originally told me it would be extra for fixing the wings, I posted a thread over in a popular furry forum explaining my position and asking what to do next. Some people there started calling me a cheap a*****e, and saying I'm a horrible person because I haven't paid yet (I will pay once me and the artist work the problem out). Other, worse names have been called. Certain people have said that every furry artists should be told to avoid me.

The artist was notified of the thread by a certain someone (probably one of the bitches calling me names), and one of them posted a journal on FA telling all her friends to avoid taking a commission from me. I've had to file a harassment ticket against her on FA.

Also, two people have threatened to put my name up on Artists Beware. I'm having to keep an eye on communities on LJ lest these bitches start spreading bad s**t about me there too.

And all this even though me and the artist are working it out. God damn the ******** furry fandom is immature. :/

Psycho Lee

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Eichorn

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:27 pm


Psycho Lee
Actually, I did consider erasing the bad wings, but realized it would probably fall under some legal problems like Acorn is saying.

Update:
I was about to agree to pay the extra $5 if she'd redraw the wings, but she came back and messaged me that she showed it to a friend and talked to her and can see how the wings are messed up, and agreed to fix them for the original asking price. I am now talking to her to get them fixed. After that I'll pay her, and considering the trouble I put her through, may consider giving her extra anyway.


However....

A drama shitstorm is brewing thanks to Furries being furries. Thankfully enough people agreed with me that the artist screwed up the image that they're watching my back, and they notified me to some harassment by other furries on FA and LJ.

When the artist originally told me it would be extra for fixing the wings, I posted a thread over in a popular furry forum explaining my position and asking what to do next. Some people there started calling me a cheap a*****e, and saying I'm a horrible person because I haven't paid yet (I will pay once me and the artist work the problem out). Other, worse names have been called. Certain people have said that every furry artists should be told to avoid me.

The artist was notified of the thread by a certain someone (probably one of the bitches calling me names), and one of them posted a journal on FA telling all her friends to avoid taking a commission from me. I've had to file a harassment ticket against her on FA.

Also, two people have threatened to put my name up on Artists Beware. I'm having to keep an eye on communities on LJ lest these bitches start spreading bad s**t about me there too.

And all this even though me and the artist are working it out. God damn the ******** furry fandom is immature. :/


I'm curious is one of those is an artist who's been giving me s**t for several months, since she's known to fly off the handle and blacklist people for every little thing.

You're safe from A_B though, posts can't be made by proxy there. You HAVE to be part of the initial situation to make a post to the community.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:17 pm


I almost don't want to post her name, but she's already done it to me on FA, so might as well right (two wrongs make a right, right? hurr hurr).

The person trying to smear me is a woman that goes by the name Thaily. I hope she's not a friend of yours.

Also, one of the FA mods/admins named Arshes seems to also be against me on this.


It's gotten worse. I was banned temporarily from FA's forums after Thaily was smearing me there and I told her she was being a b***h and immature and needed to ******** off. Arshes probably was the one who banned me, since they seem to be in cohorts.

And my trouble ticket on FA has been dismissed by a mod, as according to the responding mod, it's a conflict between me and Thaily and because the FA boards and the FA main site are the same site, somehow that journal post she posted isn't harassment.

This is just going SO ******** well. :/

And all because they hate me because they think I'm cheap and an a*****e for going behind the artist's back and complaining about her. At least I tried to keep the artist anonymous, by saying "an artist" rather than "This artist right here, avoid her like the plague!" like Thaily is trying to do.

Psycho Lee

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Eichorn

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:44 am


Psycho Lee
I almost don't want to post her name, but she's already done it to me on FA, so might as well right (two wrongs make a right, right? hurr hurr).

The person trying to smear me is a woman that goes by the name Thaily. I hope she's not a friend of yours.

Also, one of the FA mods/admins named Arshes seems to also be against me on this.


It's gotten worse. I was banned temporarily from FA's forums after Thaily was smearing me there and I told her she was being a b***h and immature and needed to ******** off. Arshes probably was the one who banned me, since they seem to be in cohorts.

And my trouble ticket on FA has been dismissed by a mod, as according to the responding mod, it's a conflict between me and Thaily and because the FA boards and the FA main site are the same site, somehow that journal post she posted isn't harassment.

This is just going SO ******** well. :/

And all because they hate me because they think I'm cheap and an a*****e for going behind the artist's back and complaining about her. At least I tried to keep the artist anonymous, by saying "an artist" rather than "This artist right here, avoid her like the plague!" like Thaily is trying to do.
No, I don't know Thaily. Arshes isn't exactly drama free, but she was one of the few trying to get Dragoneer to push the mods for better handling of trouble tickets.

Honestly, this is devolving into some VERY childish s**t on their part. The admins definitely aren't handling things as they should. Doesn't exactly surprise me, but it makes FA look even worse.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:11 pm


Yea. I'm starting to see how stupid FA can be sometimes.

I just paid the artist... MORE than she was asking. And apologized for all the drama, even though I don't think I was the sole cause of it all.

Psycho Lee

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shoki_de_nai

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:27 pm


Uh, wow Lee. Now that you named dropped, I looked a little into what happened and I have to say...You caused your own drama sir.

Flying off the handle and publicly calling the artist a instead of handling it privately and politely? Over a piddly-s**t little anatomy flaw and a couple of dollars?

Really?

From what I saw, the artist was
nothing but polite to you. Sure, she misunderstood your original complaint, but she realized her error. And she never specified an editing price, so I'm not sure where you got the $5 thing from.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:52 pm


I apologized to the artist and I've paid for the submission.

The way the other people are dragging me through the mud is uncalled for. They should have dropped it a long time ago. Even the artist told them to drop it.

Now they're trying to put it up on A_B.

And I see you're turning on me as well. Fun s**t.

Psycho Lee

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:27 pm


It's great you apologized and all. And yeah, people should probably drop it.

However, you seem surprised that people are taking such offense to your behavior. You even started this topic with "drama with artists in the fandom" when the artist in question didn't even start the drama.

I'm not "turning on you." I'm just saying that you brought this upon yourself dude. Maybe if you were nicer drama wouldn't fall on your head.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:20 pm


shoki_de_nai
Uh, wow Lee. Now that you named dropped, I looked a little into what happened and I have to say...You caused your own drama sir.

Flying off the handle and publicly calling the artist a instead of handling it privately and politely? Over a piddly-s**t little anatomy flaw and a couple of dollars?

Really?

From what I saw, the artist was
nothing but polite to you. Sure, she misunderstood your original complaint, but she realized her error. And she never specified an editing price, so I'm not sure where you got the $5 thing from.

Wow, wtf Lee. This situation did NOT warrant that kind of behavior towards her at all. And from what I'm seeing of the thread posts there, they aren't even attacking you. It looks more like people trying to get you to understand why flipping out about it is childish.

Eichorn


Psycho Lee

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:21 pm


I have no problem with them arguing with me or telling me how to act IN the thread. It's the fact that they're trying to bring it into other venues, like complaining about me, harassing me, and other things on FB, or LJ, or posting about me in A_B. They're not keeping it to FAF, they're trying to smear me in other places where the problem really doesn't need to be brought up. If the artist herself wants to bring something up on FA, or A_B, that's HER preference. But I don't think third parties should be keeping this drama going elsewhere. It's just a sad example of how drama in the furry fandom keeps going because furries want to keep the drama GOING.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:44 pm


On another note, I already paid the artist (more than she asked for) and apologized to her and she has yet to send the un-watermarked final version. It may be just a mistake but I hope she doesn't act petty and decide to take my money and not give me the art.


Also *cracks knuckles, removes gloves* Let me get serious in defending myself here.


When the artist asked me to pay extra for the wings, I was annoyed. I had already had to deal with yet another artist in that venue who took my money and disappeared, and I have had a few problems before with artists here and there, and I thought this would just be another case of me trying to deal with a bad artist. I had also been having a pretty stressed week and was pretty on edge.

I agree that my posting that angry post was out of line. I could have handled it much better, posting when I was in a better mood, and asking people for advice without bothering with name calling. I could have also done a better job keeping the artist anonymous. I want to stress though that I wanted to keep the artist anonymous.

I also want to note that only the first line of that entire post is bad. The rest of the post explains what's going on and is not demeaning towards the artist. I did not expect her to see it, as she did not have an account on the board until AFTER someone (Thaily, probably) alerted her to the thread.




If you bother to read the thread on FAF, you'll notice that only two people comment about my post at first, and they just tell me to calm down. Then people start discussing the problem. The third person suggests I post about her on A_B. No one calls me out about the "b***h" part, no one complains about that.

It's only until page TWO that Thaily calls me out, and only because she thinks I'm being cheap. It isn't until page 3 or so that someone notices that I called her a b***h, and most people don't even seem to care. Most people are complaining that I'm cheap and whining about $5.

It's not until deep into the thread that people start complaining about me calling her a b***h. Only AFTER the artist shows up, BECAUSE someone told her of the existence of the thread.

So while I'll admit that calling her a b***h was uncalled for, she was unaware I had done it until someone showed her it, and THAT was when the drama really started exploding. Because some ******** couldn't keep the argument to FAF.

Only then, when the artist herself had her feelings hurt, I apologized to her. In private. Because only she needed to hear it, and not the ******** vultures waiting for me to apologize so they could ******** pat themselves on the back for being so awesome in comparison.


That's why I'm mad. Not because there was an argument on FAF. Because people decided to spread the drama to other venues besides FAF, to journals and communities on FA and on Livejournal.

And the people hounding me? They need to stop pretending that they've never done anything in anger before, or called someone a b***h before. They act like I've done something worse than Lupine Assassin, yet I've had plenty of commissions and never this problem before. They need to check their own lives before they start throwing stones, before they act all righteous.


Also, notice on the Livejournal page that you so nicely linked to, if you notice the conversation between me and the artist is civil as all HELL. If I was really being a huge d**k to the artist's face, then that would be rude as well.

Psycho Lee

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:52 pm


Also, it appears I may have been banned permanently from FA's forums. And at least one or two other people banned for defending me.


I've also noticed that most of the people attacking me are women. And most of the people who defended me were men. Odd, this.

Apparently the word "b***h" really resonates in a negative manner for females.
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