Wiccan Parents Banned From Teaching Son About Wicca

[The Bookwyrm]

Jameta

Dude, if I'm moving to Canada, I'm staying in B.C. I have no idea what it's like in Eastern C., and Quebec tends to frighten me, so I'll head the west branch. 3nodding

East Coast is nice if you like lots of snow, lots of rain, and weather that can and literally will change from one minute to the next. Friday the 13th, I literally drove though sun, rain and snow in one 15 minute car ride. It's not so bad when you grow up with it, as I have, and I think I'd die without the ocean so near by, but it takes some getting used to if you're not from around here. East Coast is also very Christian, and more small, cliguey towns than big cities.  

[Atma311]

Gypsy Blue

Jameta

Dude, if I'm moving to Canada, I'm staying in B.C. I have no idea what it's like in Eastern C., and Quebec tends to frighten me, so I'll head the west branch. 3nodding

East Coast is nice if you like lots of snow, lots of rain, and weather that can and literally will change from one minute to the next. Friday the 13th, I literally drove though sun, rain and snow in one 15 minute car ride. It's not so bad when you grow up with it, as I have, and I think I'd die without the ocean so near by, but it takes some getting used to if you're not from around here. East Coast is also very Christian, and more small, cliguey towns than big cities.

West coast for me surprised  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Atma311

Gypsy Blue

Jameta

Dude, if I'm moving to Canada, I'm staying in B.C. I have no idea what it's like in Eastern C., and Quebec tends to frighten me, so I'll head the west branch. 3nodding

East Coast is nice if you like lots of snow, lots of rain, and weather that can and literally will change from one minute to the next. Friday the 13th, I literally drove though sun, rain and snow in one 15 minute car ride. It's not so bad when you grow up with it, as I have, and I think I'd die without the ocean so near by, but it takes some getting used to if you're not from around here. East Coast is also very Christian, and more small, cliguey towns than big cities.

West coast for me surprised

I suggest that everyone comes to Montreal. If you don't minf learning to speak French, Montreal is an extremely multi-cultural city, with an EXTREMELY high pagan community. For the past 2 months I've been trying to go to an open circle  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

I suggest that everyone comes to Montreal. If you don't minf learning to speak French, Montreal is an extremely multi-cultural city, with an EXTREMELY high pagan community. For the past 2 months I've been trying to go to an open circle

I know some French; I've lost so much of it since I stopped taking classes or speaking it almost five years ago. crying  

[The Simi Knows Best]

I cannot express my anger for this occurance. As a lawyer in training I could totally squash that ruling, for several reasons! How ******** stupid. I can honestly say i hate that. foolish as well, it is.They are supposed to be neutral in all judgements.

Disgusting. What our country has come to.  

[Jameta]

Nihilistic Seraph

Atma311

Gypsy Blue

Jameta

Dude, if I'm moving to Canada, I'm staying in B.C. I have no idea what it's like in Eastern C., and Quebec tends to frighten me, so I'll head the west branch. 3nodding

East Coast is nice if you like lots of snow, lots of rain, and weather that can and literally will change from one minute to the next. Friday the 13th, I literally drove though sun, rain and snow in one 15 minute car ride. It's not so bad when you grow up with it, as I have, and I think I'd die without the ocean so near by, but it takes some getting used to if you're not from around here. East Coast is also very Christian, and more small, cliguey towns than big cities.

West coast for me surprised

I suggest that everyone comes to Montreal. If you don't minf learning to speak French, Montreal is an extremely multi-cultural city, with an EXTREMELY high pagan community. For the past 2 months I've been trying to go to an open circle

Ich sprechen auf Deutsch. xp  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Jameta

Nihilistic Seraph

Atma311

Gypsy Blue

Jameta

Dude, if I'm moving to Canada, I'm staying in B.C. I have no idea what it's like in Eastern C., and Quebec tends to frighten me, so I'll head the west branch. 3nodding

East Coast is nice if you like lots of snow, lots of rain, and weather that can and literally will change from one minute to the next. Friday the 13th, I literally drove though sun, rain and snow in one 15 minute car ride. It's not so bad when you grow up with it, as I have, and I think I'd die without the ocean so near by, but it takes some getting used to if you're not from around here. East Coast is also very Christian, and more small, cliguey towns than big cities.

West coast for me surprised

I suggest that everyone comes to Montreal. If you don't minf learning to speak French, Montreal is an extremely multi-cultural city, with an EXTREMELY high pagan community. For the past 2 months I've been trying to go to an open circle

Ich sprechen auf Deutsch. xp

My dad speaks german.... rolleyes  

[wicked_hat]

yeah I just saw this over on PN . it is unbeliveable that the judge is tryin to tell them what the kids religion should be.  

[Shani05]

KiaraTheWhiteWitch

I cannot express my anger for this occurance. As a lawyer in training I could totally squash that ruling, for several reasons! How ******** stupid. I can honestly say i hate that. foolish as well, it is.They are supposed to be neutral in all judgements.

Disgusting. What our country has come to.

I whole heartedly agree with you. 3nodding  

[The Bookwyrm]

Has anyone heard anything? I've been lost as of late to the neather regions of backshift.  

[Dr. Arcane]

From 17th, August 2005; the Indiana Court of Appeals declared in a unanimous ruling, that a Marion County Judge overstepped in directing the parents to shelter their child from non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals.

The article, from the Indianapolis Star, said that the appeals judges did not find any evidence that Wicca represented any threat, physical or emotional, to the child; thus precluding the original court order. The article goes on to say: "Wiccan beliefs center around the balance of nature and a reverence for the earth. They do not worship Satan."

For the Appeals Court descision, and for the fact that it could happen in Indiana, score two points for the cause of Reason. smile No disrespect intended to any Indianans, it is just that I had a REAL bad experience there once. I am trying to process past my own prejudice.

Blessed Be  

[WebenBanu]

Dr. Arcane

From 17th, August 2005; the Indiana Court of Appeals declared in a unanimous ruling, that a Marion County Judge overstepped in directing the parents to shelter their child from non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals.

w00t! That's awesome, Arcane- thanks for the update. *cheers for the return of Reason*

On the subject of languages, it'd be really good for me to get some practice for my French- maybe I should move up to Montreal some day.^_^ I took about 6 years of French, but that was about 6 years ago- and now I'm so rusty that I can barely understand it anymore. I was always better at reading languages than anything else, and fortunately that still helps me out a bit. German is also a language I've really been wanting to learn. Not only is my ancestry half German, but the most cutting edge Egyptology these days comes from France and Germany; I frequently encounter untranslated quotes in those languages, or entire books which don't come in English versions. And Babblefish.com really only goes so far.>_<  

[blukattt]

Rakei

Unless this judge can prove there has been done emotional/physical damage to the boy because of Wicca, it is unjust to demand that they not expose their child to their religion.

I feel really sad for the boy, he's in the middle of something (horribly stupid) frustrating.

If anything, the judge is the one causing emotional distress and/or damage. Call me a money whore, but if I were the father, I would totally sue him, and at least get him reprimanded for overstepping his boundaries within the judicial system. pirate Yar.

"A what? "Separation of religion and state? Never heard of it..."

No worries, Karma will lay the smackdown on the deserving.  

[Leith]

Gypsy Blue

A friend of mine pointed me out to this article on Frak.com, and I thought I had to pass this along. You can read it here, or in the page. It's the 4th post down here, or below.

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

-- Star report

By Kevin Corcoran
kevin.corcoranindystar.com

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

This is beyond illegal! This violates so many laws it's not funny. First off, the first ammendmant says that the govornment shall have no say in what religion a person is, or chooses to practice. Secondly, Wicca was recognised as an official religion in 1959! I am litterally seeing stars about this!!  

[The Bookwyrm]

Leith

This is beyond illegal! This violates so many laws it's not funny. First off, the first ammendmant says that the govornment shall have no say in what religion a person is, or chooses to practice. Secondly, Wicca was recognised as an official religion in 1959! I am litterally seeing stars about this!!

Actually, it wasn't recognized in North America as an actual religion until the the mid to late 80's. Until then, it was widely believed it was simply a cult of weirdos who would go away. wink

It's fantastic that the court of appeals over turned the original findings! It seems to the case with a number of judgements regarding Paganism and discrimination cases. Or so all of the articles my friend sends me periodically so he can laugh while I spaz unltimately say.

And I'm with you, blu! That judge literally put that poor family through hell; he's dragged the names of the parents through the mud and the gods only know the emotional damage done to the poor child. I'd have his a** in court so fast in a civil case his gavel would spin!