Elitism

[Plan-Galere]

Rellik San

miraridemon

Rellik San

miraridemon

Rellik San

Bad habbit of mine, I come off as sarcastic when I'm being sincere. When I'm sarcastic, I'm overtly, almost soul crushingly so.

Ah, I have a bad habit of understatement and sarcasm as well. In fact, I tend to come off that way too.

Thats the problem with the internet... no one can here your tone of voice. So no one can tell if your being sincere or not.

I tend to sound sincere even when using biting sarcasm.

Haha, then I guess it makes being an elitest tough for you.

Actually, it makes it really easy. People think I'm sincere about everything.  

[Ms Dahl]

I agree. I can't stand elitism either. As a subculture we've done a pretty good job making ourselves look bad before the media ever came into the picture. In the Gloom Cookie comics this topic is discussed. That part when Sabastian vents to Lex he basically says that people are so insecure and afraid of being rejected they act like jerks to protect themselves.

I'm really open minded as far as goths come. If I see a baby bat that seems to be struggling to find his/her place in the subculture I won't hesistate to help them out. Being a jerk to some junior high kid isn't going to do anything but make you look bad. Everyone had to start somewhere. 3nodding


Another thing is, I find it really interesting that most of the elitist in the goth subculture I've met are around my age! I've also met some goths in their 40's and they're really laid back. Interesting.  

[Ms Dahl]

Dead Ed

Well I wouldn't consider elitism a world-wide epidemic for goths... I mean sure some poseurs can be annoying, but if we all looked exactly alike, then there'd really be no point to it and we'd all be like cattle.
Me, personally I try to sell suspected poseurs on trying bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and Sex Gang Children. I don't force them, but if they enjoy the music, it's a win/win situation smile
Another good idea is to try showing them what they can make out of "normal" clothes, without having to get insta-gothed at Hot Topic.

Exactly. Or insta-gothed at some online shop. Sure, it's easy to just go to sites like dracinabox.com and buy your whole look. But finding clothing at different stores and putting outfits together is much more rewarding.  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Senkutsu

Dead Ed

Well I wouldn't consider elitism a world-wide epidemic for goths... I mean sure some poseurs can be annoying, but if we all looked exactly alike, then there'd really be no point to it and we'd all be like cattle.
Me, personally I try to sell suspected poseurs on trying bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and Sex Gang Children. I don't force them, but if they enjoy the music, it's a win/win situation smile
Another good idea is to try showing them what they can make out of "normal" clothes, without having to get insta-gothed at Hot Topic.

Exactly. Or insta-gothed at some online shop. Sure, it's easy to just go to sites like dracinabox.com and buy your whole look. But finding clothing at different stores and putting outfits together is much more rewarding.

And cheaper! Don't forget that! *econo-goth to the extreme* well, I would be if I was actually goth *metal-head to the extreme* but for my more goth inspired wardrobe I still head to the high street (and the January sales when everyone's selling off their winter black stuff cheap goth paradise!), don't forget thrift as well, you can find some awesome stuff there 3nodding

But, back to elitism, yes, surprisingly most of the more elitist and pretentious are the younger generation, though it could be (loosely) stratisfied, as you also get more elitists in elder-goth generations (though, obviously a lot are laid back to the point of being horizontal...). I think for the creame de la creame of elitists, head for some certain vampire groups/cults, not all, a lot are really sweet laid back people that just like a bite to drink of the red stuff, but some are really quite amazing in their ability to be offensive to anyone not in a cape, poet's shirt etc. For a laugh, find and watch with amusement, (I think it's ok to laugh at people that are offensive to others, it's their come-uppence), especially when they try to exit a room with a long, draping flowing cape/coat.....and then get it caught in a door rofl  

[Rellik San]

Isobel Bellamy

Senkutsu

Dead Ed

Well I wouldn't consider elitism a world-wide epidemic for goths... I mean sure some poseurs can be annoying, but if we all looked exactly alike, then there'd really be no point to it and we'd all be like cattle.
Me, personally I try to sell suspected poseurs on trying bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and Sex Gang Children. I don't force them, but if they enjoy the music, it's a win/win situation smile
Another good idea is to try showing them what they can make out of "normal" clothes, without having to get insta-gothed at Hot Topic.

Exactly. Or insta-gothed at some online shop. Sure, it's easy to just go to sites like dracinabox.com and buy your whole look. But finding clothing at different stores and putting outfits together is much more rewarding.

And cheaper! Don't forget that! *econo-goth to the extreme* well, I would be if I was actually goth *metal-head to the extreme* but for my more goth inspired wardrobe I still head to the high street (and the January sales when everyone's selling off their winter black stuff cheap goth paradise!), don't forget thrift as well, you can find some awesome stuff there 3nodding

But, back to elitism, yes, surprisingly most of the more elitist and pretentious are the younger generation, though it could be (loosely) stratisfied, as you also get more elitists in elder-goth generations (though, obviously a lot are laid back to the point of being horizontal...). I think for the creame de la creame of elitists, head for some certain vampire groups/cults, not all, a lot are really sweet laid back people that just like a bite to drink of the red stuff, but some are really quite amazing in their ability to be offensive to anyone not in a cape, poet's shirt etc. For a laugh, find and watch with amusement, (I think it's ok to laugh at people that are offensive to others, it's their come-uppence), especially when they try to exit a room with a long, draping flowing cape/coat.....and then get it caught in a door rofl

In a club I go to in manchester... well used to go to before it went pants.
There were an infamous couple reffered to as Lord and Lady Goth, who would swan around the goth room (its diveded into 3 rooms, Goth Room, Main Room, Fish Bowl (classic metal)). They'd swan arounf like they owned the place, and made it quite clear to anyone they though wasn't goth enough, their pressence was not welcome. They'd buy the most beautiful goth a bottle of wine at the end of the night, they made this feeling of unwelcomeness directed towards me when I stopped dressing goth. (part of my steady decline into the seedy underbelly of 90's metaller). To which I just laughed at them, to be honest once you got past the facade they were a good laugh, but they were too caught up in their own image for anyone to want to try and talk to them.

Conversley, I went recently for old times sake, wearing a black shirt, my Pantera t-shirt (Vulgar Display incase your interested), blue jeans and boots, and aload of 5' nothing 'goths' (I use the term loosely) come upto where I'm sitting and tell me to move, now I'm not a small guy, (being 6'5'' and having broad shoulders) and I just burst out laughing, because wear as with Lord and Lady goth they just made a sort of joke... and act out of it, these guys were completely serious, which just goes to show where the kids get it from, but they don't understand to much of the older generation, its just an act.

And no I didn't move, they tried getting a bouncer, who then looked at me, looked at the 'goths' looked at me again and then asked the 'goths' to give him ID or get out.  

[Spooky Wasabi Princess]

Rellik San

One thing I can't abide and have noticed alot with self proclaimed goths, this elitism, this view of 'if your not exactly like me your not goth enough.' Proof of this being the dominant view is in the band Death Stars, who all look like Dani Filth and Marilyn Manson clones in S.S. Uniforms. The thing that really gets me though, is if someone asks about the culture, or how one is defined as goth, most people, as opposed to being reasonable and helping someone become a valuable and informed member of the community, call them a pouser and other such names. Yet then these same people complain about the lack of true goths and that there are so many fakes wondering around, it seems to be, the number of fakes and pousers who are around would lessen if 'real' goths actually helpped them into the community.

Now I don't know if its because I've been out of the loop or I missed a memo, but I have no idea why this attitude pervays in a culture, losing out to whiney teens in tight pants (the emo sub-culture) is determined to drive away anyone with an interest. Is there any light someone can shed on this for me?

I can be a bit of an a** when it comes to telling off pouser goths. But since they don't listen because they're 'souls are darker than mine' or something it's a losing battle.  

[Spooky Wasabi Princess]

Rellik San

but for my more goth inspired wardrobe I still head to the high street (and the January sales when everyone's selling off their winter black stuff cheap goth paradise!)

Are you in Melbourne, Rellik?  

[Dante Omura]

Darkness Is My Life's Blood

I've never met an elite goth before, so I don't know how I would react to them, but hell anyway to help someone, is still help, of course I believe goth is a mental not a clothing thing and that the clothing simply sets us apart from everyone so that everyone see's that we're different. anyone agree?

Light Is My Deaths Curse

 

[Isobel Bellamy]

Rellik San

In a club I go to in manchester... well used to go to before it went pants.
There were an infamous couple reffered to as Lord and Lady Goth, who would swan around the goth room (its diveded into 3 rooms, Goth Room, Main Room, Fish Bowl (classic metal)). They'd swan arounf like they owned the place, and made it quite clear to anyone they though wasn't goth enough, their pressence was not welcome. They'd buy the most beautiful goth a bottle of wine at the end of the night, they made this feeling of unwelcomeness directed towards me when I stopped dressing goth. (part of my steady decline into the seedy underbelly of 90's metaller). To which I just laughed at them, to be honest once you got past the facade they were a good laugh, but they were too caught up in their own image for anyone to want to try and talk to them.

Conversley, I went recently for old times sake, wearing a black shirt, my Pantera t-shirt (Vulgar Display incase your interested), blue jeans and boots, and aload of 5' nothing 'goths' (I use the term loosely) come upto where I'm sitting and tell me to move, now I'm not a small guy, (being 6'5'' and having broad shoulders) and I just burst out laughing, because wear as with Lord and Lady goth they just made a sort of joke... and act out of it, these guys were completely serious, which just goes to show where the kids get it from, but they don't understand to much of the older generation, its just an act.

And no I didn't move, they tried getting a bouncer, who then looked at me, looked at the 'goths' looked at me again and then asked the 'goths' to give him ID or get out.

*laughs* Ah, a familiar scenario here too when I used to go to the clubs (which, went to s**t a well here, turned all indie or pop-rocky *shudders*), before they started to crack down on ID anyone not in enough black was treated like s**t by some of the kids (who then complained when Paradise Lost came on and demanded Hawthorne Heights. I kid you not.).

I now stick to as local goth friendly pub, very nice laid back people with anyone from dreadheads to bikers to metallers, plus the odd beautiful goth ^^

I bet that couple was at least popular with whoever they gave that wine to! Even I'd like someone who was stuck up but gave me free alcohol XD

They kind of sound a bit like Dani Filth to me - stick with me here, he has created a very specific stage persona (to the point where his answering machine is in 'character' apparently), but, in interviews he is actually an engaging and affable person, but he and his band are still viewed as stuck up with their own image to be taken seriously. (ah, if only they would spend less time with the make-up and more on the getting singing lessons for Dani XD cat-torture voice gets old after a little while)  

[Rellik San]

Isobel Bellamy

Rellik San

In a club I go to in manchester... well used to go to before it went pants.
There were an infamous couple reffered to as Lord and Lady Goth, who would swan around the goth room (its diveded into 3 rooms, Goth Room, Main Room, Fish Bowl (classic metal)). They'd swan arounf like they owned the place, and made it quite clear to anyone they though wasn't goth enough, their pressence was not welcome. They'd buy the most beautiful goth a bottle of wine at the end of the night, they made this feeling of unwelcomeness directed towards me when I stopped dressing goth. (part of my steady decline into the seedy underbelly of 90's metaller). To which I just laughed at them, to be honest once you got past the facade they were a good laugh, but they were too caught up in their own image for anyone to want to try and talk to them.

Conversley, I went recently for old times sake, wearing a black shirt, my Pantera t-shirt (Vulgar Display incase your interested), blue jeans and boots, and aload of 5' nothing 'goths' (I use the term loosely) come upto where I'm sitting and tell me to move, now I'm not a small guy, (being 6'5'' and having broad shoulders) and I just burst out laughing, because wear as with Lord and Lady goth they just made a sort of joke... and act out of it, these guys were completely serious, which just goes to show where the kids get it from, but they don't understand to much of the older generation, its just an act.

And no I didn't move, they tried getting a bouncer, who then looked at me, looked at the 'goths' looked at me again and then asked the 'goths' to give him ID or get out.

*laughs* Ah, a familiar scenario here too when I used to go to the clubs (which, went to s**t a well here, turned all indie or pop-rocky *shudders*), before they started to crack down on ID anyone not in enough black was treated like s**t by some of the kids (who then complained when Paradise Lost came on and demanded Hawthorne Heights. I kid you not.).

I now stick to as local goth friendly pub, very nice laid back people with anyone from dreadheads to bikers to metallers, plus the odd beautiful goth ^^

I bet that couple was at least popular with whoever they gave that wine to! Even I'd like someone who was stuck up but gave me free alcohol XD

They kind of sound a bit like Dani Filth to me - stick with me here, he has created a very specific stage persona (to the point where his answering machine is in 'character' apparently), but, in interviews he is actually an engaging and affable person, but he and his band are still viewed as stuck up with their own image to be taken seriously. (ah, if only they would spend less time with the make-up and more on the getting singing lessons for Dani XD cat-torture voice gets old after a little while)

Pub... you said pub not bar... your english too. smile

Yeah Jilly's Rockworld in manchester, I remember the dress code, you needed at least one item of black denim or leather to get in. (denim during summer only)  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Rellik San

Pub... you said pub not bar... your english too. smile

Yeah Jilly's Rockworld in manchester, I remember the dress code, you needed at least one item of black denim or leather to get in. (denim during summer only)

Yup, English here too ^^ the place comes complete with fireplace and mandatory darts board ^^ Quite amusing American's reactions to pubs, I heard tell of one man taken to a pub and asked why he'd been taken to a gay bar.. hope he didn't say that too loudly o.O

Ah, yes, the "conform or be out" rule...ah, the irony  

[GilAskan]

It has been a long running stereotype of goths that we are elitest or pretentious. Unfortunately, this is one of few stereotypes about goths that has some grounds to stand on.

Virtually every goth I know of very self-confident. And it's not uncommon that the confidence crosses over to arrogance, pride to elitism.

I think that the attitude comes gradually from the culture, actually. Goth is commonly looked down upon and insulted, so many goths get defensive and try to take the higher ground. This isn't always the case (individuals obviously will have their own experiences), but I think this is one of the greater causes.  

[Rellik San]

Isobel Bellamy

Rellik San

Pub... you said pub not bar... your english too. smile

Yeah Jilly's Rockworld in manchester, I remember the dress code, you needed at least one item of black denim or leather to get in. (denim during summer only)

Yup, English here too ^^ the place comes complete with fireplace and mandatory darts board ^^ Quite amusing American's reactions to pubs, I heard tell of one man taken to a pub and asked why he'd been taken to a gay bar.. hope he didn't say that too loudly o.O

Ah, yes, the "conform or be out" rule...ah, the irony

Actually think about goths wear leather pants, bikers wear leather jackets, rockers wear denim jackets, metallers wear denim shorts and leather jackets. razz

It kept the Ben Sherman crew out.  

[-Isel-]

Rellik San

Isobel Bellamy

Rellik San

Pub... you said pub not bar... your english too. smile

Yeah Jilly's Rockworld in manchester, I remember the dress code, you needed at least one item of black denim or leather to get in. (denim during summer only)

Yup, English here too ^^ the place comes complete with fireplace and mandatory darts board ^^ Quite amusing American's reactions to pubs, I heard tell of one man taken to a pub and asked why he'd been taken to a gay bar.. hope he didn't say that too loudly o.O

Ah, yes, the "conform or be out" rule...ah, the irony

Actually think about goths wear leather pants, bikers wear leather jackets, rockers wear denim jackets, metallers wear denim shorts and leather jackets. razz

It kept the Ben Sherman crew out.

Don't leave glam-rockers and our snakeskin pants and our feather boas out of this.

Yes, it's quite glamorous to act like you're on cocaine all the time, too.  

[Rellik San]

Isel

Rellik San

Isobel Bellamy

Rellik San

Pub... you said pub not bar... your english too. smile

Yeah Jilly's Rockworld in manchester, I remember the dress code, you needed at least one item of black denim or leather to get in. (denim during summer only)

Yup, English here too ^^ the place comes complete with fireplace and mandatory darts board ^^ Quite amusing American's reactions to pubs, I heard tell of one man taken to a pub and asked why he'd been taken to a gay bar.. hope he didn't say that too loudly o.O

Ah, yes, the "conform or be out" rule...ah, the irony

Actually think about goths wear leather pants, bikers wear leather jackets, rockers wear denim jackets, metallers wear denim shorts and leather jackets. razz

It kept the Ben Sherman crew out.

Don't leave glam-rockers and our snakeskin pants and our feather boas out of this.

Yes, it's quite glamorous to act like you're on cocaine all the time, too.

Snake Skin could classed as a kind of leather.... lol.