Satan and Paganism

[Nihilistic Seraph]

iolitefire

This is quite an interesting topic.
I've heard me share of people playing double standards with Satan. But they also tend to be less likely to mention the less nice Pagan gods as well (Set, Yama, etc.). They just ignore the gods who aren't pleasant or good to humanity (even though some of those gods actually are).

This is how I view entities like Satan things like demons. Demons are beings that oppose either a god or a principle. Thus every religion has its own distinct demons.
Now, you have to keep in mind that in mythology, not everything is black and white. Some gods can do some screwed up things which means that their demonic counterparts may not be as evil as one might think.
I also believe that while I may support the existence of most gods, I don't not worship all of them and therefore they have no power over me.
In general, I think a better response for Pagans dealing with the Satanism argument is "Satan has no power over me." Cause, it is kind of true in one sense.

Well, as much power as any of the deities have over us, which I would say is a subconscious one. However, as most of us were/are raised in a Judeo-Christian society, I'd say that subconsciously he has more influence on us that other deities.  

[Starlock]

Just a random etymological infobit to add in... the word "Demon" comes from the Greek 'daimon' which simply meant a lesser deity or spirit, sometimes the spirits of the dead or guardian spirit. Then Christians evidently started translating it as a deity of Pagans or unclean spirit (since of course everything Pagan is now bad). Of course, etymologies of words are also argued over, so I'm not sure how much credit to put in this particular interpretation.

As for Nihl's question... rejection of Satan has struck me as odd as well. I believe in Satan in the sense that I believe that everything exists, but I don't really believe in Satan in the sense that I give power to the concept in my own worldview and practice. I understand the want and the need to distance modern Pagan paths from Satanism since to the minds of many these things blur together innapropriately.  

[Redwing~Shadow]

first off, satan does not have anything to do with wicca, neo pagenism, or anything like that, he is merly a sign of evil that was brought up in the christian religion, and honstly i dont care much to belive in a devil, because i think evil is miss inturpreted, and it is a concept from us humans and we create evil ourselves. As i view the connections between chrisianity and wicca, i see a same concept. wicca may be more down to earth and worship jesus as a god or savior but they worship god as it is, and it is even that even christians dont know who or whay god is, he or she is a might force and spiritul power that brought us to be, that is all i see of it, and as for satan, yes he can be whorshiped, but ppl that take that side of religion are more anti-christ, and i wont say satanism, because i was told that it doesnt have as much to do with satan, because u dont really belive in ant particular god, but focus power on yourself, similar to some pagenism. but either way, i dont see any religion that i know of connected to any devil worship, and ppl misunderstand religion.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

Care to cite me scripture on that? wink

Given the fact that I do not own a Bible, am too exhausted to go hunt for one online, and assume you have a quote to prove me wrong right at hand, no. razz

But I will give you these little Wiki beauties:

Quote:

Satan, from the Hebrew word for "accuser" (Standard Hebrew: שָׂטָן, Satan Tiberian Hebrew Śāṭān; Koine Greek: Σατανάς, Satanás; Aramaic: סטנא, Saṭänä; Arabic: شيطان, Šayṭān, Ge'ez: ሳይጣን Sāyṭān), is a term with its origins in the Abrahamic faiths which is traditionally applied to an angel. Ha-Satan is the accuser, a member of the divine council, who challenged the religious faith of humans, especially in the books of Job and Zechariah. Religious belief systems other than Judaism relate this term to a demon, a rebellious fallen angel, devil, minor god and idolatry, or as an allegory for evil.

Quote:

In modern and late Medieval Christian thought, Lucifer is usually a fallen angel commonly associated with Satan, the embodiment of evil and enemy of God. Lucifer is generally considered, based on the influence of Christian literature and legend, to have been a prominent archangel in heaven (although some contexts say he was a cherub or a seraph), prior to having been motivated by pride to rebel against God. When the angel failed, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, along with a third of the heavenly host, and came to reside on the world...

It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan by name. The name Satan itself merely means "enemy", apparently more of a title. However, a passage in Ezekiel chapter 28 contains a lament over an "anointed cherub" who was in the "holy mountain of God". This being is described as "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." The passage goes on to describe this being's expulsion from the "mount of God", apparently because his "heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Afterwards the passage describes the eventual fate of this corrupted cherub: "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

 

[Goddess Hekate]

Like I do not believe in hell, I do not believe in Satan.
Hell was apparently a mix of realms where the dead are in various beliefs and then pooled together in a weird Christian concept.
Satan I beleive refered to some babylonian king who was being a b***h towards christians.

I could be wrong though, since I don't remember where I heard the first, but the last was in a debate about John Milton's Pardise Lost and how the concept of Lucifer/Satan was derived from some Babylonian king and not a fallen angel.
I'm pretty sure the first I heard in a thread on Homosexuality and the christian faith. gonk
But again, not sure.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Redwing~Shadow

first off, satan does not have anything to do with wicca, neo pagenism, or anything like that, he is merly a sign of evil that was brought up in the christian religion,

Actually, it was in the Jewish and Zoroastrian before Christian. 3nodding

Quote:

and honstly i dont care much to belive in a devil, because i think evil is miss inturpreted, and it is a concept from us humans and we create evil ourselves.

What do you mean? If I said before that Satan represent pure evil, I retract the statement, as he's portrayed often as working with the consent of God.

Quote:

As i view the connections between chrisianity and wicca, i see a same concept. wicca may be more down to earth and worship jesus as a god or savior but they worship god as it is, and it is even that even christians dont know who or whay god is, he or she is a might force and spiritul power that brought us to be, that is all i see of it, and as for satan, yes he can be whorshiped, but ppl that take that side of religion are more anti-christ, and i wont say satanism, because i was told that it doesnt have as much to do with satan, because u dont really belive in ant particular god, but focus power on yourself, similar to some pagenism. but either way, i dont see any religion that i know of connected to any devil worship, and ppl misunderstand religion.

I'm not saying there is a religion devoted to Satan. My questoin is this - If you can believe in any of the deities in the various pantheons, why not Satan?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Starlock

Just a random etymological infobit to add in... the word "Demon" comes from the Greek 'daimon' which simply meant a lesser deity or spirit, sometimes the spirits of the dead or guardian spirit. Then Christians evidently started translating it as a deity of Pagans or unclean spirit (since of course everything Pagan is now bad). Of course, etymologies of words are also argued over, so I'm not sure how much credit to put in this particular interpretation.

New meanings also get tacked on, perhaps they just took a word with a similar meaning to make the transition between religions a little more smooth.

Quote:

As for Nihl's question... rejection of Satan has struck me as odd as well. I believe in Satan in the sense that I believe that everything exists, but I don't really believe in Satan in the sense that I give power to the concept in my own worldview and practice. I understand the want and the need to distance modern Pagan paths from Satanism since to the minds of many these things blur together innapropriately.

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly, I'm not suggesting that we begin to worship Satan, in my opinion, being a deity does not automatically make one worthy of worship. I'd rather a lot of people just take their heads out of the sand. 3nodding  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

The Bookwyrm

Nihilistic Seraph

Care to cite me scripture on that? wink

Given the fact that I do not own a Bible, am too exhausted to go hunt for one online, and assume you have a quote to prove me wrong right at hand, no. razz

But I will give you these little Wiki beauties:

Here are the two online ones I use

www.biblegateway.com

Easy to use, searchable with a good assortment of Bible versions.

www.blueletterbible.com

Perfect for the fine details, as you can get the original Greek and Hebrew with meaning per-word to compare and get at the actual meanings.

Quote:

Satan, from the Hebrew word for "accuser" (Standard Hebrew: שָׂטָן, Satan Tiberian Hebrew Śāṭān; Koine Greek: Σατανάς, Satanás; Aramaic: סטנא, Saṭänä; Arabic: شيطان, Šayṭān, Ge'ez: ሳይጣን Sāyṭān), is a term with its origins in the Abrahamic faiths which is traditionally applied to an angel. Ha-Satan is the accuser, a member of the divine council, who challenged the religious faith of humans, especially in the books of Job and Zechariah. Religious belief systems other than Judaism relate this term to a demon, a rebellious fallen angel, devil, minor god and idolatry, or as an allegory for evil.

The ambiguity comes I think from in Job, when it mentions this passage

Job 1:6

One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them

It could really go either way, Satan as an angel or not.

Quote:

In modern and late Medieval Christian thought, Lucifer is usually a fallen angel commonly associated with Satan, the embodiment of evil and enemy of God. Lucifer is generally considered, based on the influence of Christian literature and legend, to have been a prominent archangel in heaven (although some contexts say he was a cherub or a seraph), prior to having been motivated by pride to rebel against God. When the angel failed, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, along with a third of the heavenly host, and came to reside on the world...

You have also a passage in Luke that mentions a fall.

Luke 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

On the other hand, it says nothing about Satan being an angel.

Quote:

It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan by name. The name Satan itself merely means "enemy", apparently more of a title. However, a passage in Ezekiel chapter 28 contains a lament over an "anointed cherub" who was in the "holy mountain of God". This being is described as "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." The passage goes on to describe this being's expulsion from the "mount of God", apparently because his "heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Afterwards the passage describes the eventual fate of this corrupted cherub: "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

I checked the passage, and the quoted bits there are directed at the ruler of the city Tyre, who got high and mighty and tried to liken himself to God. I imagine that Yahweh is attempting to show how nice he was before he got arrogant.  

[Goddess Hekate]

I should probably ask.

Satan as in an etheric entity or as a deity?
I do not question that an entity like that of satan has come to be, I just do not consider him on the same level as a deity. Perhaps through the ages the believers of such have manifested a part of the energy into something like that.
But that would probably require some sort of transcendant research, I'll be sure to check if I get to a level where creatures like that have no clear borders and space/time is irrelevant. xd
Now I actually have a task to accomplish in trying to reach higher understanding of the world. rofl  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Goddess Hekate

Like I do not believe in hell, I do not believe in Satan.

Do you believe in Christianity?

Quote:

Hell was apparently a mix of realms where the dead are in various beliefs and then pooled together in a weird Christian concept.

Yup. Sheol, Gehenna and Hades all kinda merged together.

Quote:

Satan I beleive refered to some babylonian king who was being a b***h towards christians.

Actually, that's Lucifer.

Quote:

I could be wrong though, since I don't remember where I heard the first, but the last was in a debate about John Milton's Pardise Lost and how the concept of Lucifer/Satan was derived from some Babylonian king and not a fallen angel.
I'm pretty sure the first I heard in a thread on Homosexuality and the christian faith. gonk
But again, not sure.

You're kinda right. Look at this verse

Isiah 14:12

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

However, the whole earlier chapter makes it quite clear that a mortal man is being spoken of.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah 14;&version=31;  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Goddess Hekate

I should probably ask.

Satan as in an etheric entity or as a deity?
I do not question that an entity like that of satan has come to be, I just do not consider him on the same level as a deity. Perhaps through the ages the believers of such have manifested a part of the energy into something like that.
But that would probably require some sort of transcendant research, I'll be sure to check if I get to a level where creatures like that have no clear borders and space/time is irrelevant. xd
Now I actually have a task to accomplish in trying to reach higher understanding of the world. rofl

I'd say deity. I know the Christians don't consider him such, but the term stretches a little when speaking in a Neo-Pagan context, when you consider both Yahweh and Isis to be deities.  

[Goddess Hekate]

Nihilistic Seraph

Goddess Hekate

I should probably ask.

Satan as in an etheric entity or as a deity?
I do not question that an entity like that of satan has come to be, I just do not consider him on the same level as a deity. Perhaps through the ages the believers of such have manifested a part of the energy into something like that.
But that would probably require some sort of transcendant research, I'll be sure to check if I get to a level where creatures like that have no clear borders and space/time is irrelevant. xd
Now I actually have a task to accomplish in trying to reach higher understanding of the world. rofl

I'd say deity. I know the Christians don't consider him such, but the term stretches a little when speaking in a Neo-Pagan context, when you consider both Yahweh and Isis to be deities.

I Guess it really does depend on how far you strech deity and how you define it.
I guess I'm predjudiced against thinking about him on that level since in the bible he really doesn't do much that isn't in favor of YHVH.
I'm still taking it as a personal quest. Find out what status Satan has, while transcending the planes of existance... seven of those in my mind by the way.
Of course when I'm too busy with school I won't have much time.
If he exists I'm quite sure he's laughing about the way he has been portrayed twisted  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Probably. Him and Pan, sitting around over a couple beers, joking about the humans...  

[Redwing~Shadow]

Quote:

Actually, that's Lucifer

Lucifer and the devil are the same, and in reality, the devil was lucifer as an angel, but because he betrayed god, he was sent down from heavan and became as the devil.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Redwing~Shadow

Quote:

Actually, that's Lucifer

Lucifer and the devil are the same, and in reality, the devil was lucifer as an angel, but because he betrayed god, he was sent down from heavan and became as the devil.

No...no they're not. Lucifer is the name Yahweh gave to a Babylonian king who got uppity. You're going on the common knowledge, which happens to be dead wrong.