Origins of magic?

[born2rock16]

Nihilistic Seraph

blindfaith^_^

Nihilistic Seraph

I would say that's not at all magic. It's stage magic with the aim of manipulation, which is radically different from what we practice.

I tend to agree that what is explained here is stage magic. I would add that it is possible that these "seers" who learned these interesting different affects with fire began to use them in ritual for specific requests that may have segwayed into magic and rituals as we think of now.

Oh, I imagine it's also quite possible that the tricks turned into ritual tools. An interesting progression that would be, huh?

Quote:

The Bookwyrm

In this definition science and magic align as the same thing only the individuals watching the act do not understand the process, do you think that this could be the case with magic today even though there is no scientific proof to support such thoughts?

No.

Magic is a personal tool for most Pagans; I don't go around working spells for people to impress or baffle them. I work it for myself. And there is evidence to suggest that there is power within the mind to effect the outcome of a situation, and that's what magic does: It focuses the mind to effect a desired outcome.

I think I misworded what I wanted to ask in this one. What I wanted to get at, (though long winded and round about) was that while magic is currently a practice that can not be scientifically proven or disproven do you think that in the future we will have the means to scientifically prove magic? Does it work completely on a system outside science? And lastly along this line is magic my pyschological than anything else?

I'm not sure. I think it's kinda split between psychological emporwement and actual change. I don't think it works outside the realm of science, as that seems to be rather impossible. Rather, we don't understand everything yet.

This is tricky, and quite open ended, how I see it.
It's possible that it's all just science. It could be luck for all we know. We don't understand everything yet, and I don't believe that we ever will truely understand everything.

Haven't you ever had an experience though, where nothing makes sense, and there is absolutely no explanation? Where it seems that the whole of the universe is seemingly magical, and deeply unknown? Something for any and every pagan to think on, I think.  

[Memento Mortalis Es]

"Unh! Thag not happy. Thag not like man in other cave. Thag want man in other cave's woman. Thag think hard for long time."

The next day, man in other cave's cave collapses, killing him but leaving his woman unharmed.

"Thag happy now. Thag like magic."

Some primitive human achieved change in accordance with will by being a talented psychic, which is an evolutionary advantage. Voila! Magic is born.  

[blindfaith^_^]

born2rock16

This is tricky, and quite open ended, how I see it.
It's possible that it's all just science. It could be luck for all we know. We don't understand everything yet, and I don't believe that we ever will truely understand everything.

Haven't you ever had an experience though, where nothing makes sense, and there is absolutely no explanation? Where it seems that the whole of the universe is seemingly magical, and deeply unknown? Something for any and every pagan to think on, I think.

Honestly, no, I've never had an experience that is completely unexplainable through pyschology or some idea of mental reprogramming. I don't think that makes the experiences less magic in nature though. I think in a lot of ways that makes them more magical. Its interesting how much a mind set can completely alter what's going on around you.

Don't get me wrong, I don't discount the thought that I may be creating actual change through the use of magic, but it would seem to me to be more likely that the only real changes are in my perception and response.

I believe there are a lot of unknowns, but not because we can't know them. They are unknown because they haven't been researched enough or don't yet have a method to research certain things. We'll get there though.  

[blindfaith^_^]

Hitchcock, do you believe that there were people with psychic powers strong enough to kill others for their stuff? If you do believe this, and if these people were therefor dominate, how come most of us don't have very strong psychic powers now?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

blindfaith^_^

Hitchcock, do you believe that there were people with psychic powers strong enough to kill others for their stuff? If you do believe this, and if these people were therefor dominate, how come most of us don't have very strong psychic powers now?

Beat me to it xp

Although, there's alway the rumour about Crowley and the camel...  

[MollyFu]

Magick is the ability to do something with your brain power that isn't done by common man. Have you ever prayed so hard or had a ritual that worked? Mostly because of your brain power working on the higher planes. Ever heard of "As above, so below"? That too teaches us that we, as humans are capable of great feats but do not yet know how to harness this power and make it manifest at will. These are indeed people that have magick. Crowley Was a great teacher...if you don't mind being talked down to.  

[twilight insanity]

MollyFu

Magick is the ability to do something with your brain power that isn't done by common man. Have you ever prayed so hard or had a ritual that worked? Mostly because of your brain power working on the higher planes. Ever heard of "As above, so below"? That too teaches us that we, as humans are capable of great feats but do not yet know how to harness this power and make it manifest at will. These are indeed people that have magick. Crowley Was a great teacher...if you don't mind being talked down to.

OF COURSE THERE WERE PEOPLE, BOTH IN STONE AGE TIMES AND NOW, THAT COULD DO THAT! HAHAHAHAHA! xd  

[Goddess Hekate]

I'd say it's completely safe to say that we humans even though we know alot have only seen the top of the iceberg... What with all the talk about dark matter(which reminds me of a great book trilogy) and dark energy both of which should be like 70% of the contents of this universe. Apparently we can't see dark matter or energy so the only proof we have is from looking at how these things force the matter of some galaxies to move.

I'm not a genius or specifically interested in physics but I do know that everything in this universe knows where everything else is because everything exerts a force on everything else... Soooo magic could be linked to this mysterious dark energy.

But as I say I can only hypothesize about all of this since I don't have the interest to look for proof.

Maybe everything is coincidence maybe it's like a wave, an interference that travels through things and alters them in a miniscule way to change an out come.  

[Pelta]

Back to the original post, I'd like to point out that those people who discovered that certain salts made flames go pretty probably didn't know it was science. They would have instantly placed it down to magic because they didn't understand what was going on. If you look back further throughout history, everything unexplainable at the time was usually attributed to some supernatural force. Look at the Egyptians truly believing they needed magic every day to make the sun rise. As science progressed and advanced certain phenomena were explained, making them less esoteric - less "magical."

Thus I would say magic came before science, as a way of people trying to relate and understand the world around them. There are some interesting passages on this in The Golden Bough. Magic was not so much invented as required by primitive peoples. If you think about it, even the simplest phenomenon like rain was completely unexplainable to the earliest people. They created myths and legends to attempt to rationalise it. Through the myths and legends came ways of interacting with it - and when your life is so controlled by the elements it is no surprise that they should attempt to bargain with spirits or gods for their further existence. That is the beginning of magic. It is the first science - the first attempt to explain the world in a way that humans can understand and control.  

[twilight insanity]

Goddess Hekate

I'd say it's completely safe to say that we humans even though we know alot have only seen the top of the iceberg... What with all the talk about dark matter(which reminds me of a great book trilogy) and dark energy both of which should be like 70% of the contents of this universe. Apparently we can't see dark matter or energy so the only proof we have is from looking at how these things force the matter of some galaxies to move.

I'm not a genius or specifically interested in physics but I do know that everything in this universe knows where everything else is because everything exerts a force on everything else... Soooo magic could be linked to this mysterious dark energy.

But as I say I can only hypothesize about all of this since I don't have the interest to look for proof.

Maybe everything is coincidence maybe it's like a wave, an interference that travels through things and alters them in a miniscule way to change an out come.

before i start, i just wanna say, i am liking having pelta around to make such strong arguments. heheh. anyway, i always believed that dark matter was so closely relate dto magic ever since i learned about it. i almost had a revalation about the significance of energy, dark matter, and existance on time, on april 3rd i believe....i could be wring...all i know is it was the full moon of that month. anyway, my worry is that with the way science is headed, and that nobody is bothering to trace dark matter better, that astrolgy will become so inacurate, humans will become completely divorced from nature, and no amount of magic will be able to help or reverse this.  

[[BlkCat]]

Odd opinion, but In my opinion science IS magick, it's just using technology to make it happen.

Now to define Magick:

"the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change in the world around you and the world within you. It is important to remember that magick is neutral, it is neither good or bad... only our intentions are good or bad. Magick will only take the path of least resistance."

Now, doesn't this sound like what science does?

We use technology to focus our will and effect change in the world around us and within us. There is no bad technology, nuclear technology isn't even bad, it's what we do with it that is "bad" in some opinions.

So yes, in that sense I think even science is Magick, just in a form that humans can explain and thus accept.  

[serbus]

*In my opinion*

I do believe that science and magick have extremely close ties. Mostly because what is science now used to be called magick; not because people were trying to trick others, but because we didn't understand it. It is classic in history that something which cannot be explained is defined as magick. There is a difference, though.

Science was called magick, magick was NOT called science. More often than not, science was left only to Christian Scholars (see how that turned out...) and the unexplainables were left to the common folke.

So really, pagans pushed the evolution of "science" through their magick. We simply understand much of it better now and call it by those parts by a different name. (Gravity is still a part of the earth, Chemicals are worldly too...)

-Teshia