Kishimoto hates women (spoilers)

[Princess Dustbunny]

Hold on- Tsume is womanly? confused

Anyway, Kishimoto-sensei doesn't hate women; he's said himself that he's uncomfortable with writing them. Despite this, he still does decent work with them, in my opinion. And I agree with Shikalee: What's wrong with being a woman? The reason I've (almost) always liked Temari and Tsunade so much is because they're, pardon the phrase, warrior women; there's not a line between the words. As Shikalee said, if they're going to be totally masculine, why not just make them men?

As to Mikoto and Yoshino, are you trying to say they're less of women for being stay-at-home mothers/ homemakers? The job regarded as one of the most difficult in our world, raising ninja kids and having glorified hit-men for husbands aside? It's not like they were dominated and forced; they, as far as we know, chose to settle down at home (and Yoshino certainly milks it). It makes sense that the women would stay at home, especially considering the double standard for stay-at-home mothers versus stay-at-home fathers  

[attila the fun]

Shikalee

Captain Verd

@ Liz - It doesn't matter how strong they are, especially in Tsunade's and Sakura's case. Just because, say, Shizune is a jounin, doesn't mean she isn't a healer wearing heels. Tsunade could be the strongest ninja in the universe, but she's still in a largely feminine role.

And what is wrong with being a woman?

Are you saying that in order to be strong or play an appropriate role, we must all be men?

What is wrong with being a woman? If Tsunade played a masculine role, would she not be a man?

There's nothing wrong with being a woman--I can't speak for Verd (although I think she agrees), but I'm looking at this from a feminist perspective, so of course what I'm saying is quite the opposite of what you said. I'm saying in order to be strong, it's very possible to also be a woman, but Kishimoto doesn't write strong women (with the possible exception of Temari, whom I personally have no problem with).

Princess Dustbunny--why does it make sense for the women to stay at home? confused Wouldn't it make sense for them to continue working for the village as ninja and share the childraising responsibility with their husbands?  

[Syndactyly]

attila the fun

Shikalee

Captain Verd

@ Liz - It doesn't matter how strong they are, especially in Tsunade's and Sakura's case. Just because, say, Shizune is a jounin, doesn't mean she isn't a healer wearing heels. Tsunade could be the strongest ninja in the universe, but she's still in a largely feminine role.

And what is wrong with being a woman?

Are you saying that in order to be strong or play an appropriate role, we must all be men?

What is wrong with being a woman? If Tsunade played a masculine role, would she not be a man?

There's nothing wrong with being a woman--I can't speak for Verd (although I think she agrees), but I'm looking at this from a feminist perspective, so of course what I'm saying is quite the opposite of what you said. I'm saying in order to be strong, it's very possible to also be a woman, but Kishimoto doesn't write strong women (with the possible exception of Temari, whom I personally have no problem with).

Princess Dustbunny--why does it make sense for the women to stay at home? confused Wouldn't it make sense for them to continue working for the village as ninja and share the childraising responsibility with their husbands?

This is why I really hate a lot of feminism; a lot of feminists want women to be equal to men. What they don't realize is that for complete equality to ever exist, women must become men, or vice versa. They will always have a p***s, and we won't. They will always have more muscle than us. They will always be hairier than us. As long as we are women, and they are men, nothing but a sex change can put us up to par.

I see what feminists are saying about MONEY and RESPECT. But Tsunade is HOKAGE. She is the most RESPECTED and FEARED person in Konoha. How can you ask them to give that woman more power? Don't you think if she was PERFECTLY INCAPABLE OF FIGHTING, that she WOULDN'T be Hokage?

As far as child raising as two ninja parents go, I think Shikamaru's mom quit being a ninja because it wasn't working so well. I also don't think they want you on the job while you're fertile. Japanese and Chinese tradition is that if any warrior is pregnant, she must step down and raise the child to the coming of age before they can be Shinobi again. In theory, Yoshino (Shikamaru's mom) COULD be a Shinobi again, but she hasn't made any steps towards that.  

[attila the fun]

Shikalee

attila the fun

Shikalee

Captain Verd

@ Liz - It doesn't matter how strong they are, especially in Tsunade's and Sakura's case. Just because, say, Shizune is a jounin, doesn't mean she isn't a healer wearing heels. Tsunade could be the strongest ninja in the universe, but she's still in a largely feminine role.

And what is wrong with being a woman?

Are you saying that in order to be strong or play an appropriate role, we must all be men?

What is wrong with being a woman? If Tsunade played a masculine role, would she not be a man?

There's nothing wrong with being a woman--I can't speak for Verd (although I think she agrees), but I'm looking at this from a feminist perspective, so of course what I'm saying is quite the opposite of what you said. I'm saying in order to be strong, it's very possible to also be a woman, but Kishimoto doesn't write strong women (with the possible exception of Temari, whom I personally have no problem with).

Princess Dustbunny--why does it make sense for the women to stay at home? confused Wouldn't it make sense for them to continue working for the village as ninja and share the childraising responsibility with their husbands?

This is why I really hate a lot of feminism; a lot of feminists want women to be equal to men. What they don't realize is that for complete equality to ever exist, women must become men, or vice versa. They will always have a p***s, and we won't. They will always have more muscle than us. They will always be hairier than us. As long as we are women, and they are men, nothing but a sex change can put us up to par.

I see what feminists are saying about MONEY and RESPECT. But Tsunade is HOKAGE. She is the most RESPECTED and FEARED person in Konoha. How can you ask them to give that woman more power? Don't you think if she was PERFECTLY INCAPABLE OF FIGHTING, that she WOULDN'T be Hokage?

So...in order to be emotionally stable we must have penises?

I understand that men are stronger, but Kishi's still shunting all the women off into romance-, nurse- or crazy b***h-related roles. ("Crazy b***h" used here in the bad sense.)  

[Captain Verd]

Shikalee

This is why I really hate a lot of feminism; a lot of feminists want women to be equal to men. What they don't realize is that for complete equality to ever exist, women must become men, or vice versa. They will always have a p***s, and we won't. They will always have more muscle than us. They will always be hairier than us. As long as we are women, and they are men, nothing but a sex change can put us up to par.

I see what feminists are saying about MONEY and RESPECT. But Tsunade is HOKAGE. She is the most RESPECTED and FEARED person in Konoha. How can you ask them to give that woman more power? Don't you think if she was PERFECTLY INCAPABLE OF FIGHTING, that she WOULDN'T be Hokage?

As far as child raising as two ninja parents go, I think Shikamaru's mom quit being a ninja because it wasn't working so well. I also don't think they want you on the job while you're fertile. Japanese and Chinese tradition is that if any warrior is pregnant, she must step down and raise the child to the coming of age before they can be Shinobi again. In theory, Yoshino (Shikamaru's mom) COULD be a Shinobi again, but she hasn't made any steps towards that.

Tsunade is Hokage, but she was a last pick behind Yondaime, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya.

Both she and Sakura have the ability to seriously kick a**. They both have amazing chakra control, so bigger attacks that Naruto and Sasuke have trouble pulling off could be done more efficiently with someone like Sakura. She can punch rocks into tiny pieces, so she could have a huge warrior role. Despite this, Kishimoto makes her a healer, because she's a girl. confused

This topic is about the emotional values Kishimoto gives his women. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women. No, this does not mean all women are weaker than men, especially in the Naruto case.  

[Princess Dustbunny]

attila the fun

So...in order to be emotionally stable we must have penises?

Not if the majority of the central p***s-weilding cast are an indication.

Captain Verd

Tsunade is Hokage, but she was a last pick behind Yondaime, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya.

But she's still Hokage. There's also the point that the counsel (or whatever they are; I don't pay them enough attention) let Jiraiya go wandering off so he could possibly find Tsunade and possibly convince her to take the job, leaving Konoha without a leader in the mean time. That's how willing they were to let her take up the position.

Quote:

Both she and Sakura have the ability to seriously kick a**. They both have amazing chakra control, so bigger attacks that Naruto and Sasuke have trouble pulling off could be done more efficiently with someone like Sakura. She can punch rocks into tiny pieces, so she could have a huge warrior role. Despite this, Kishimoto makes her a healer, because she's a girl. confused

She may not necessarily remain just a healer. Look at how Tsunade and Kabuto are able to utilize medical ninjutsu in battle. Sure, Sakura doesn't have a fighting role yet, but she has the potential to. We've seen her thumb her nose at staying in the background and put that potential to use once already.

Quote:

This topic is about the emotional values Kishimoto gives his women. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women. No, this does not mean all women are weaker than men, especially in the Naruto case.

No, but it's a generalization. In general, the men will be stronger, and we only see a handful of shinobi. We've seen females fill every known shinobi rank now, and there's no reason to think that all of them are weaker than their male counterparts.

Many of the central females are weaker as a convenience; not only is it a shounen manga, the writer is uncomfortable writing female characters. The weaker they are, the less he has to use them- but he does use them. He does a decent job, too, disadvantage considered. They're generally weaker, but not necessarily weak, and they aren't happy with playing the damsel in distress. Even as Hinata's nonconfrontational nature screwed up Team 8's missons, she willed to improve herself (and it worked). Even as Sakura bled and cried in the Forest of Death, she hated herself for relying on others again (and did something about it). Ino was part of what was once Team Teamwork, where Chouji was typically regarded as the weakest link. Tenten and Temari, for all that we see of them, always had their priorities in order.

And, just for the sake of saying so, Chiyo rocked while she lasted 3nodding  

[Captain Verd]

Princess Dustbunny

Captain Verd

Tsunade is Hokage, but she was a last pick behind Yondaime, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya.

But she's still Hokage. There's also the point that the counsel (or whatever they are; I don't pay them enough attention) let Jiraiya go wandering off so he could possibly find Tsunade and possibly convince her to take the job, leaving Konoha without a leader in the mean time. That's how willing they were to let her take up the position.

Of course they were willing, she's one of the three best ninjas Konoha ever made. I'm not saying she isn't. What I am saying is that she was their last pick behind a line of men.

Quote:

Quote:

Both she and Sakura have the ability to seriously kick a**. They both have amazing chakra control, so bigger attacks that Naruto and Sasuke have trouble pulling off could be done more efficiently with someone like Sakura. She can punch rocks into tiny pieces, so she could have a huge warrior role. Despite this, Kishimoto makes her a healer, because she's a girl. confused

She may not necessarily remain just a healer. Look at how Tsunade and Kabuto are able to utilize medical ninjutsu in battle. Sure, Sakura doesn't have a fighting role yet, but she has the potential to. We've seen her thumb her nose at staying in the background and put that potential to use once already.

They use medical jutsu in battle. Medical, as in... healing. I've already mentioned Sakura's strength.

Quote:

Quote:

This topic is about the emotional values Kishimoto gives his women. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women. No, this does not mean all women are weaker than men, especially in the Naruto case.

No, but it's a generalization. In general, the men will be stronger, and we only see a handful of shinobi. We've seen females fill every known shinobi rank now, and there's no reason to think that all of them are weaker than their male counterparts.

Many of the central females are weaker as a convenience; not only is it a shounen manga, the writer is uncomfortable writing female characters. The weaker they are, the less he has to use them- but he does use them. He does a decent job, too, disadvantage considered. They're generally weaker, but not necessarily weak, and they aren't happy with playing the damsel in distress. Even as Hinata's nonconfrontational nature screwed up Team 8's missons, she willed to improve herself (and it worked). Even as Sakura bled and cried in the Forest of Death, she hated herself for relying on others again (and did something about it). Ino was part of what was once Team Teamwork, where Chouji was typically regarded as the weakest link. Tenten and Temari, for all that we see of them, always had their priorities in order.

And, just for the sake of saying so, Chiyo rocked while she lasted 3nodding

HEY LOOK GUYS, I DIDN'T SAY ALL THE FEMALES WERE WEAKER THAN THE MALES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#!@@!@!#@@!@!!!11111 LOL I CAN READ biggrin DDDDDD

Chiyo had puppet skillz, yes, but she was still a poison expert. Not a huge, brawly fighter.  

[EwYouNerd]

Good to see you're all still taking Naruto so seriously wink  

[Captain Verd]

EwYouNerd

Good to see you're all still taking Naruto so seriously wink

lol u no me it mah hole lyfes emo

Ps - Yer the one that writes essays lol heart  

[liz_bliz_inc]

actually, Kabuto and Tsunade have both demenstrated that they can use their knowldge of medical jutsu and the human anatomy to horribly ******** up the other guy. Kabuto has used that charka scalpel to cut into people's bodies without having to physically cut someone. And Tsunade did that freaky thing to Kabuto where she used medical jutsu to ******** up his bodies' synapses, had he not had the understanding of the human anatomy that he did, he never would have figured out how to move again.

So obviously medical jutsu has a offensive side to it and is not purely defense and healing.

True we haven't seen Sakura use such things yet, but that's probably because their complexity is still beyond her level.  

[Captain Verd]

liz_bliz

actually, Kabuto and Tsunade have both demenstrated that they can use their knowldge of medical jutsu and the human anatomy to horribly ******** up the other guy. Kabuto has used that charka scalpel to cut into people's bodies without having to physically cut someone. And Tsunade did that freaky thing to Kabuto where she used medical jutsu to ******** up his bodies' synapses, had he not had the understanding of the human anatomy that he did, he never would have figured out how to move again.

So obviously medical jutsu has a offensive side to it and is not purely defense and healing.

True we haven't seen Sakura use such things yet, but that's probably because their complexity is still beyond her level.

That's not the point. It's medical jutsu, and a passive offensive type of fighting. Kind of like Neji, who's also a woman.  

[CrabappleRed]

Captain Verd

Kind of like Neji, who's also a woman.

I will love you forever for this quote heart  

[Captain Verd]

CrabappleRed

Captain Verd

Kind of like Neji, who's also a woman.

I will love you forever for this quote heart

heart  

[Princess Dustbunny]

Captain Verd

Princess Dustbunny

Captain Verd

Tsunade is Hokage, but she was a last pick behind Yondaime, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya.

But she's still Hokage. There's also the point that the counsel (or whatever they are; I don't pay them enough attention) let Jiraiya go wandering off so he could possibly find Tsunade and possibly convince her to take the job, leaving Konoha without a leader in the mean time. That's how willing they were to let her take up the position.

Of course they were willing, she's one of the three best ninjas Konoha ever made. I'm not saying she isn't. What I am saying is that she was their last pick behind a line of men.

They were more qualified; it's a generalization. And my point was that while they were after Jiraiya because he was convenient and there, they were swayed to letting him chase after Tsunade even though they were skeptical of her return. Konoha was vulnerable for however long while he was off looking for her, and they were okay with that. That strikes me as saying more for Tsunade than Jiraiya.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Both she and Sakura have the ability to seriously kick a**. They both have amazing chakra control, so bigger attacks that Naruto and Sasuke have trouble pulling off could be done more efficiently with someone like Sakura. She can punch rocks into tiny pieces, so she could have a huge warrior role. Despite this, Kishimoto makes her a healer, because she's a girl. confused

She may not necessarily remain just a healer. Look at how Tsunade and Kabuto are able to utilize medical ninjutsu in battle. Sure, Sakura doesn't have a fighting role yet, but she has the potential to. We've seen her thumb her nose at staying in the background and put that potential to use once already.

They use medical jutsu in battle. Medical, as in... healing. I've already mentioned Sakura's strength.

I was thinking more of the Chakra Scalpel and whatever that jutsu Tsunade used on Kabuto was (the one in the fight were she overcame a decades-old, paralyzing phobia of blood in the heat of things, remember?). Sakura used mostly her strength in the Sasori fight, but she still portrayed willingness to step out of the role of a supporter. We might (admittedly, probably won't) see more agressive jutsu out of her yet.

Quote:

Chiyo had puppet skillz, yes, but she was still a poison expert. Not a huge, brawly fighter.

Suna has an entire squad dedicated to puppetry and, theoretically, poisons. Why does Chiyo have to be big and brawly? As she was, she took down a castle on her own; I sort of got the idea that poison was a consequence. She also, as a little old lady, put up a fight against an S-class criminal with only the help of a fifteen-year-old chuunin who technically shouldn't have been fighting. Then there's the fact that the only person who could find antidotes to all Chiyo's poisons was Tsunade, a woman.

All in all, I'm not seeing a hatred of women. A trouble in writing them, perhaps, but not a hatred.

EwYouNerd

Good to see you're all still taking Naruto so seriously wink

"Seriously" is a strong word ninja  

[attila the fun]

Princess Dustbunny

Captain Verd

Princess Dustbunny

Captain Verd

Tsunade is Hokage, but she was a last pick behind Yondaime, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya.

But she's still Hokage. There's also the point that the counsel (or whatever they are; I don't pay them enough attention) let Jiraiya go wandering off so he could possibly find Tsunade and possibly convince her to take the job, leaving Konoha without a leader in the mean time. That's how willing they were to let her take up the position.

Of course they were willing, she's one of the three best ninjas Konoha ever made. I'm not saying she isn't. What I am saying is that she was their last pick behind a line of men.

They were more qualified; it's a generalization. And my point was that while they were after Jiraiya because he was convenient and there, they were swayed to letting him chase after Tsunade even though they were skeptical of her return. Konoha was vulnerable for however long while he was off looking for her, and they were okay with that. That strikes me as saying more for Tsunade than Jiraiya.

Kishimoto probably didn't think of that.