Power of Imagination

[Starlock]

Pelta

twilight insanity

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real...

Um... Not entirely. Imagining I have a car will not give me one. Imagining a million Euro, no matter how great that would be, will not make me rich. Imagination is not the same as reality

So then you would say that one of these is more 'real' than the other?  

[Pelta]

Starlock

Pelta

twilight insanity

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real...

Um... Not entirely. Imagining I have a car will not give me one. Imagining a million Euro, no matter how great that would be, will not make me rich. Imagination is not the same as reality

So then you would say that one of these is more 'real' than the other?

Actually I'm very glad you asked that.

Anything of this sort has to take into account that there may be different levels of reality. The physical, corporeal reality is only one. So if I create myself a car in my mind, it is indeed real in one sense of the word - it is a real thought and may or may not manifest on the astral plane. But even if the thought is real I still can't drive the car. wink

Now, there are techniques and schools of magic who believe that "so above so below," that whatever exists in the world of forms will manifest downwards into corporeal reality. But what is often the problem is that people assume the Astral will manifest in precisely the way that it appears. This is not the case. The rules that govern how things pass downwards through the Tree are never that simple.

So yes, the thought of the car is real. That still doesn't mean I have a car I can drive.  

[Goddess Hekate]

twilight insanity

Goddess Hekate

auronclone

Goddess Hekate

First of, imagination is inside one self as Pelta said.
I feel sad for people who lack a good imagination because it's what sets us apart from animals it's what innovates the world. That doesn't mean I pity them I just feel sad that they haven't learned what a great thing imagination is.
I Actively use imagination as a writter I can in my head spin worlds, weave skies and thread the lines of some poor sods destiny, I like this of course and it centers me mentally (note: not spiritually)

I'll try to explain it in a zen-buddhist way. When solving a koan like the sound of one hand clapping or understanding mu(emptiness) it's not enough to be able to know it inside one self (imagination) sort of: I can imagine inside that everything is mu, but it isn't before acknowledgement that mu isn't just inside you but also outside you and is everything that you've solved the koan.

So imagination isn't magic it's just inside you, when it's blown out of your mind and into everything else that's when you can talk about magic. But I might be influenced by my recent exploration of Hinduism. *shrugs*

so then, if for example someone imagined the creation of lit candle floating in front of him/her, and they aplied enough willpower and energy to make that image visible to everyone else by the power of the mind itself, the act of their spychic metacreativity of the candle would not be considered imagination anymore? i don't see how that is so, because after all, it is still completely controled by you imagining it. and would it be considered only illusion if it was practical? if it shed light, gave off warmth, could be held? that is my question.

No it is impossible to light a candle by imagining it, pyro/psycho-kinesis doesn't work with imagination. Like I said imagination is inside. psychokinesis works like when you make your hand move, it's not imagined it's done.

Ok... I read without comprehension anyways...

Also telepathy isn't considered magic atleast not by me.

Hypothetically if this was feasable it would not be imagination since it exists outside of your own mind into the perception of someone else without there being telepathy involved.

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real, and psychic powers are everything to do with imagination and thought. every part of the mind. also, the difference between magic and ESP is irrelevant. after all, we're talking more about how imagination and reality effect eachother anyway.

I've never said it wasn't real, I've tried psychokinesis and I can tell you imagination didn't get me anywhere, thoughts yes but not about moving it it's difficult to explain but I've moved a psiwheel slowly. It's like an instinct in the brain just like one doesn't have to imagine moving their hand it's that state one needs to get into to move things, it's exhausting too since it's a hit or miss thing in the begining.  

[Goddess Hekate]

Pelta

Starlock

Pelta

twilight insanity

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real...

Um... Not entirely. Imagining I have a car will not give me one. Imagining a million Euro, no matter how great that would be, will not make me rich. Imagination is not the same as reality

So then you would say that one of these is more 'real' than the other?

Actually I'm very glad you asked that.

Anything of this sort has to take into account that there may be different levels of reality. The physical, corporeal reality is only one. So if I create myself a car in my mind, it is indeed real in one sense of the word - it is a real thought and may or may not manifest on the astral plane. But even if the thought is real I still can't drive the car. wink

Now, there are techniques and schools of magic who believe that "so above so below," that whatever exists in the world of forms will manifest downwards into corporeal reality. But what is often the problem is that people assume the Astral will manifest in precisely the way that it appears. This is not the case. The rules that govern how things pass downwards through the Tree are never that simple.

So yes, the thought of the car is real. That still doesn't mean I have a car I can drive.

3nodding

That's how I would word it also.  

[Starlock]

Pelta

Starlock

Pelta

twilight insanity

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real...

Um... Not entirely. Imagining I have a car will not give me one. Imagining a million Euro, no matter how great that would be, will not make me rich. Imagination is not the same as reality

So then you would say that one of these is more 'real' than the other?

Actually I'm very glad you asked that.

Anything of this sort has to take into account that there may be different levels of reality. The physical, corporeal reality is only one. So if I create myself a car in my mind, it is indeed real in one sense of the word - it is a real thought and may or may not manifest on the astral plane. But even if the thought is real I still can't drive the car. wink

Now, there are techniques and schools of magic who believe that "so above so below," that whatever exists in the world of forms will manifest downwards into corporeal reality. But what is often the problem is that people assume the Astral will manifest in precisely the way that it appears. This is not the case. The rules that govern how things pass downwards through the Tree are never that simple.

So yes, the thought of the car is real. That still doesn't mean I have a car I can drive.

Isn't it interesting though that in casual conversation we have this strong tendancy to refer to things in the mind as 'not real' but only with certain things? I mean... although emotions are largely all in our minds (ignoring for a second that any mental state always has a neurological component) we consider them 'real' in casual conversation but we don't consider a dream to be real. Why the disjunction, I wonder?

It also appears that many don't make distinctions in terms of levels of reality. That's probably more common for those with magical mindsets, but we've all met people who see just one reality and don't see any layers.  

[twilight insanity]

Starlock

Pelta

Starlock

Pelta

twilight insanity

...the ability to make something real by imagining it is perfectly real...

Um... Not entirely. Imagining I have a car will not give me one. Imagining a million Euro, no matter how great that would be, will not make me rich. Imagination is not the same as reality

So then you would say that one of these is more 'real' than the other?

Actually I'm very glad you asked that.

Anything of this sort has to take into account that there may be different levels of reality. The physical, corporeal reality is only one. So if I create myself a car in my mind, it is indeed real in one sense of the word - it is a real thought and may or may not manifest on the astral plane. But even if the thought is real I still can't drive the car. wink

Now, there are techniques and schools of magic who believe that "so above so below," that whatever exists in the world of forms will manifest downwards into corporeal reality. But what is often the problem is that people assume the Astral will manifest in precisely the way that it appears. This is not the case. The rules that govern how things pass downwards through the Tree are never that simple.

So yes, the thought of the car is real. That still doesn't mean I have a car I can drive.

Isn't it interesting though that in casual conversation we have this strong tendancy to refer to things in the mind as 'not real' but only with certain things? I mean... although emotions are largely all in our minds (ignoring for a second that any mental state always has a neurological component) we consider them 'real' in casual conversation but we don't consider a dream to be real. Why the disjunction, I wonder?

It also appears that many don't make distinctions in terms of levels of reality. That's probably more common for those with magical mindsets, but we've all met people who see just one reality and don't see any layers.

i always just blew it off as everyone else being ignorant, but i have to admit o that being an act of ignorance as well...and so i contradict myself. i always believed dreams were real, as did my mother before me, and my stepdad, and 2 of my half-siblings. it's a family tradition i guess. i can't speak for radha (the 7 yar old) but a think she must also believe dreams are real. she doies often confuse them for the real world, but she currently is as i was at her age: not realy caring to look at anything. the world is simply the world. there is nothing more than what you see, and she doesn't think about anyting. it is true bliss, one that i still miss, but care not anymore to go back to.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Quote:

How do you define imagination? How is the imagined, the inner worlds different from the outer worlds? Is one more 'real than the other?

Imagination, for me, is the work of the creative subconscious. It tends to lend itself to daydream, fantasies, and creative pursuits such as the writing of fiction or poetry, or creating works of art.

It's a manipulation of the senses, often conjured up from past memories and experiences, to construct another experience or reality that is "believable" both to the self and others.

Quote:

How do you think imagination relates to the practice of Witchcraft or whatever Neopagan or Occult practice you follow? How does it tie into the use of magic, communication with deities, and such?

I'm hesitant to say that imagination plays any role in my practice, and really much rather prefer the term of "creative visualization." To me, imagination is a means of creating and controlling mentally, a means through which a scenario follows a mental script from start to finish to the entertainment of the one doing the imagining.

But then I have to ask myself what the bloody difference is? Most of my spell work involves "creative visualization" whereby I envision what I desire from start to finish. And I'm not ashamed to say that on more than one occasion I've had daydreams work the same as a spell and manifest the desired outcome I'd been fantasizing about.

There's just something that rubs me wrong in saying that I use my imagination in my spiritual workings, something that almost makes it seem... less legitimate. It certainly makes it harder for others to take me seriously when I say that I imagined having a conversation with one of my patrons, as opposed to saying I meditated and received guidance.

I suppose it's all a matter of personal preference.  

[Seira Relur]

Starlock

arrow How do you define imagination? How is the imagined, the inner worlds different from the outer worlds? Is one more 'real than the other?

arrow How do you think imagination relates to the practice of Witchcraft or whatever Neopagan or Occult practice you follow? How does it tie into the use of magic, communication with deities, and such?

The power of imagination is what we start with; most powerful psychic ability we are gifted with as infants and children. With age, if we don't choose to harness, or simply let it go, your ability to "imaginate" withers. It's the ability to create things in "another world" which is at the same time, all the same world. All the worlds are just as real.

Ever since I was little, I had dreams that re-ac cured every night. Not the same dream over and over, but a continuation of the same story... a bolder and more outspoken world of magic, where things would add on as I became older. Situations, experiences, and so forth would be added as I lived them in the wake life... only, in a fairytale/fantasy world. I still have these dreams, and now I depend on them to make sure I never lose my ability to visualize. It makes my practices more real in a sense. I can see them that much easier.  

[Starlock]

The Bookwyrm

There's just something that rubs me wrong in saying that I use my imagination in my spiritual workings, something that almost makes it seem... less legitimate. It certainly makes it harder for others to take me seriously when I say that I imagined having a conversation with one of my patrons, as opposed to saying I meditated and received guidance.

Yeah, I suspect many brush into that problem. Unfortunately 'imagined' has the implication of 'not real' or 'childish fantasy' in our culture, when it really encompasses a much larger realm than that. Some of the modern writers of our time equate any sort of otherworldy journeying or inner sight with imagination, but emphasize that does not by any means make the experience less real or the beings you meet less true in their own right.

Then there are those that if you say you had a conversation with patrons, they'll assume you're nuts anyway and use that word 'imagination' in a dirty way. Too bad, it is, how much our culture devalues imagination in certain applications. Probably symptomatic of the mechanistic worldview we're still stuck in over here in the West: anything in the inner worlds, imagination included, is discounted as irrelevant or at least less valuable than the outer worlds.  

[safkef]

People really DO have a hard time taking you seriously when you talk about imagination. It's really hard for me because I'm teaching my daughter the importance of imagination while at the same time teaching her that not everybody understands about it. Sigh.. raising a pagan child is difficult biggrin  

[Starlock]

safkef

People really DO have a hard time taking you seriously when you talk about imagination. It's really hard for me because I'm teaching my daughter the importance of imagination while at the same time teaching her that not everybody understands about it. Sigh.. raising a pagan child is difficult biggrin

Young'uns are really awesome at wandering in the Otherworlds, though, because their imaginations and the 'realness' of it hasn't been dessicated by years of schooling and social conditioning. I know when I was a kid I thought adults were rediculously closed-minded compared to myself, and it was true. Sadly, I think I've in at least some respects become one of those closed-minded adults I hated as a kid... hopefully not as much as some others who have no magic or imagination in their lives at all!  

[safkef]

Starlock

Young'uns are really awesome at wandering in the Otherworlds, though, because their imaginations and the 'realness' of it hasn't been dessicated by years of schooling and social conditioning. I know when I was a kid I thought adults were rediculously closed-minded compared to myself, and it was true. Sadly, I think I've in at least some respects become one of those closed-minded adults I hated as a kid... hopefully not as much as some others who have no magic or imagination in their lives at all!

My daughter has an interesting mixture of imagination and realism. I homeschool her to help her have an actual childhood and not have to grow up too fast but the way the world is, they seem to want to shove her towards adulthood. I know you aren't one of those adults! I mean, you have done a wonderful job getting us all to be creative and use our brains smile Thank you for everything you do biggrin