Mos Eisley Cantina

[NickCpointless]

lets not turn this into a star trek vs star wars forum and lets all get drunk instead  

[Nelowulf]

1st things 1st.

I'm back.

Second: NO DISSING OF STAR TREK. Or thou shalt hath no protection against mine fury! It is equally good, expecially TNG, though most people don't realize that most of the Trek episodes actually aren't about BATTLE and WAR! It's a different attitude, focusing more on exploration and mutiny versus all out battlefield. Get it right. Not all trekkies are assholes. And I won't take SW fans that wish to become that which they dispise.  

[AFK Masturbating]

Agreed, Nelo. My girlfriend loves Star Trek, and she and I have many interesting discussions of both Star Trek and Star Wars. That said, there's no need to bring the "OMG0rz! Satr Trak is teh suxx0rz!!1one!!1" into here.
And welcome back. 3nodding  

[NickCpointless]

Nelowulf

1st things 1st.

I'm back.

Second: NO DISSING OF STAR TREK. Or thou shalt hath no protection against mine fury! It is equally good, expecially TNG, though most people don't realize that most of the Trek episodes actually aren't about BATTLE and WAR! It's a different attitude, focusing more on exploration and mutiny versus all out battlefield. Get it right. Not all trekkies are assholes. And I won't take SW fans that wish to become that which they dispise.

no argunments from me i adore star trek as much as star wars but i think star trek is more about the people then anything else oh and then theres the ocastional fight with a romulan or something.

oh and welcome back  

[Nelowulf]

*resumes rightful place at the bar*

Oh well.. I got 20th place... nationally... among people in college...  

[Nospai Deathous]

Darkened Angel

Tech-wise, Star Trek would win against an all-out war with Star Wars.

Most their ships are bigger and more durable, closer to a cruiser, making them superior to SW fighters. Also, their ships are immune to laser fire thanks to a navigational deflector thingy. As well, breaching them would be almost impossible since they have force field systems virtually everywhere, especially in hallways, so that in case of a hull breach, the intruders will be stuck in a small area. Their weapons are phasers, which are superior to the laser tech that is SW blasters and whatnot, and most ships have replicators of some kind that can spawn the most dangerous weapons for in-ship defense on command. Outside, any fighter would be toast against a photon torpedo, which is basically an anti-matter missle. Cruiser to cruiser, let's have examples: Picard's Enterprise could easily take out an SD, possibly even split it half right down the middle. Speed-wise, Star Trek ships are slower in hyperspace, but their impulse engines make them capable of much faster movements than other cruisers.

sorry, i can't resist, this is hilarious.

they say phasers are more powerful than blasters. alright then. i'll bring up the stats to that troop ship mentioned earlier.

Star Wars: Acclamator troop transport
Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).


now, you must be thinking, 'wow...but something like the "Enterprise-D" could take it on' right? let's see.

Star Trek: Enterprise-D
Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123). Note that phasers appear to have a chain-reaction effect so their raw power output may be deceptively low.
Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload, p.129)
Sublight acceleration: 1000G (design goal, p.75)
Operational range: 2750 light-years (7 years at warp 6 before refueling, p.3)
Shield heat dissipation: 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators, p.13 cool
Reactor power: ~4 billion GW at max warp 9.6 (scaled from the warp power chart on p.55 which uses units of joules for power; we assume this is a simple mistake). From the chart, their fuel supply for 7 years of warp 6 cruising would be roughly 2E23 J (enough to run an Acclamator's reactor at full power for just 1 second).
Max warp speed: ~2000c (warp 9.6), sustainable 12 hours for a single sprint of roughly 3 light-years. This appears to have increased to roughly 3000c for newer ships such as the Intrepid-class.

those are both from official published figures, each respectively for their source.
remember. a /troop ship/, 1/10 the size of an SD.  

[Nelowulf]

alas, but star trek would win by default.

Two ways, but you would never want to hear them.... you'd consider them cheap.

Borg, for example, can be destroyed easily. But within 3 shots of the death star, they'd be immune to the superlaser cannon. anything less than that, they'd shrug off no problem.

But, the trump card remains.

Time Travel is in the Trek universe. Not in the SW universe. All the trekkies got to do is go back in time and destroy the planets (or assimilate) and win.

And phasers are sustained pulses. So every second they are on someone, their power is squared. Hence, within a couple seconds, they'd overpower the puny laserbolt's effective power.

And another thing you're incapable of calculating is the size of the SW universe. Hence, whatever is needed there can be grossly exaggerated to fit the unrealistic necessities of the SW universe.

But... It all comes down to one thing:

Trek was based of our own universe, our own physical capabilites, and our own naturally occuring phenomena.

Wars is just a fictional western, whose physics is so mangled, an egg yoke would actually protect the shell from damage in certain situations.

Hence, the enterprize cannot physically win strictly due to the fact it stays within actual perameters that could exist. If for no other reason, the amount of material needed to build anything in the SW universe is so overproportionated that to build just one Imperial Star Destroyer and maintain it would take the resources of 50 earths.  

[Nospai Deathous]

Nelowulf

Time Travel is in the Trek universe. Not in the SW universe. All the trekkies got to do is go back in time and destroy the planets (or assimilate) and win.

And another thing you're incapable of calculating is the size of the SW universe. Hence, whatever is needed there can be grossly exaggerated to fit the unrealistic necessities of the SW universe.

Hence, the enterprize cannot physically win strictly due to the fact it stays within actual perameters that could exist. If for no other reason, the amount of material needed to build anything in the SW universe is so overproportionated that to build just one Imperial Star Destroyer and maintain it would take the resources of 50 earths.

those are good points.

"Borg, for example, can be destroyed easily. But within 3 shots of the death star, they'd be immune to the superlaser cannon. anything less than that, they'd shrug off no problem." i don't understand what you meant by that.

however, sustained pulse... that really has no meaning. it means the phaser cycles in pulses for a sustained amount of time. being as it's energy (or plasma? i am not sure), it cannot possibly square in energy of distance and sustained fire in space. only solid-state projectiles can, such as missiles. energy naturally dissipates over distance.


and Star Wars physics is actually a lot more accurate than you might think. it was rather vague on them, so star wars fans who had expertise in physics could come in and fill in the deliberately, conveniently placed holes. trek, like other sci-fi stories of long ago (relatively) tried to explain it and insert it in, blatantly. in doing so, it suffered the same fate as those other sci-fi stories. the information they used became obsolete.

for instance, MS Gundam. i love that show. all Gundam. but they based it on 70's science. they thought everyone would be going to Jupiter for their H2 to power their fusion reactors.

now, we know there's very little H2 on Jupiter.

little things like that. star wars wasn't specific, and for that, it saved itself. *shrug*  

[Nelowulf]

there's no H2 on jupiter, but alas, there is on Europa.

So technically, jupiter is still in the running. Though I have to say Wing was my fave gundam series...

the thing with teh phaser is that the energy, when sustained, will square itself because the particles themselves that make up the energy also feed back the energy, and when they are energized, create energy equal to that of their own.

and SW physics is not accurate, simply because all the calculations are made by the sole factor of assuming that Coruscant is the same size as the earth, and the sun is the same as Sol. Hence, if any information that contradicted it came out, the entire universe would be changed.


Its all a bunch of BS IMO.... Onward to new topics before I have to actually get off my a** and crunch numbers for a couple of days... Which I do NOT enjoy doing...  

[Nospai Deathous]

Nelowulf

Its all a bunch of BS IMO.... Onward to new topics before I have to actually get off my a** and crunch numbers for a couple of days... Which I do NOT enjoy doing...

alright, we wouldn't want that, now would we? but that whole phaser thing... that still sounds off to me... if it's not number-crunching trouble?  

[Nelowulf]

I'll see if I can get some of my friends to do it... Though it may take a couple of days... if they feel up to the task of yet again re-educating the people..

Basically, the phaser generates enough energy that it manages to energize all molecules that, in turn, generate energy by being energized. Simple chemistry, things get energized, they move, and create more energy.

However, the phaser is sustained, and with teh energy already created by the movement of molecules, the energy bumps off to surrounding molecules, and the originals get recharged instantaneously. Hence, the entire body is hit within a matter of miliseconds, even though the impact is only very tiny.

Its a very crude example, but think of a balloon. If you put a hot enough needle on it, the balloon will explode. Not nearly a great example, but the best I can think of right now after 700 miles of non-stop driving (except for gas) and no caffiene.  

[Nospai Deathous]

Nelowulf

I'll see if I can get some of my friends to do it... Though it may take a couple of days... if they feel up to the task of yet again re-educating the people..

Basically, the phaser generates enough energy that it manages to energize all molecules that, in turn, generate energy by being energized. Simple chemistry, things get energized, they move, and create more energy.

However, the phaser is sustained, and with teh energy already created by the movement of molecules, the energy bumps off to surrounding molecules, and the originals get recharged instantaneously. Hence, the entire body is hit within a matter of miliseconds, even though the impact is only very tiny.

Its a very crude example, but think of a balloon. If you put a hot enough needle on it, the balloon will explode. Not nearly a great example, but the best I can think of right now after 700 miles of non-stop driving (except for gas) and no caffiene.

ok, so it /is/ just energy..

if i'm getting you right... a better example would be taking a lit match and throwing it into a piece of paper, right? you're talking about energizing the thing that it hits, and multiplying that, right?  

[Nelowulf]

True, but due to the nature of the phaser, it is raw energy...

Now I'm starting to get confuzzled meself. My friend has a much better understanding of it.

The only thing is that the match example works, but the energy converts to heat almost instantaneously. The phaser instead uses its energy to overload the energy in the molecular structure of the target by I don't know..

Like I said, I'm a fan, but not a fanatic...

I can try to convey the works, but I'm now entering the range of being incapable of explaining it... my knowledge isn't as unlimited as some, but now I feel that If i try any more, I'll just end up confusing the entire point...  

[Nospai Deathous]

alright, fair enough. i'm just confused because it sounds like the phaser is turning itself into an energy loop by utilizing the energy of the molecules it vaporizes, but the problem with that is that the molecules it's affecting must be exactly the fuel required to make the energy beam. that would work like a turbolaser battery, except using the phaser as the primary energy beam, and the target as the secondary energizer. but the secondary energizer usually has to be a gas. that is, if you want the right results. if it's solid, it'll pass through, though further energized. that would be interesting... it would be energized by the surface, pass through, blow through the middle, destroying everything, then pass out the other side without affecting the other surface..  

[Nelowulf]

Well, you're in the cantina.

Have a drink. Kill the thought. I know I have to now.

Speaking of which, I have to add the Pangalactic Gargleblaster to the OGG. And finish the Jedi Code at the bottom of the bio post in COTGCW. I have the Sith code... i think.

If you can help it out, be meh guest.