Wicca, not the same as Witchcraft?

[Dragoness Arleeana]

WitchyBoy

lets just agree to disagree that we each have our own definition of what magick is and how we define it.

The topic isn't strange at all! You guys have COMPLETELY changed the question and its subject.

YES, magic is what you make of it through personal experiences. But we're not TALKING about MAGIC. We're talking about the DEFINITIONS and DIFFERENCES of witchcraft and Wicca.

Witchcraft is a supernatural practice. Wicca is a religion. Plain and simple. The question laid before us had NOTHING to do with what we interpret magic to be or where it comes from.

You took it and made it into something COMPLETELY different, saying that the question could not be answered when it COULD and HAD been answered.

Please, for the love of God, if you're going to say that someone's question or topic or WHATEVER is strange, odd, stupid, or WHATEVER, READ THE DAMNED POST!

I'm sorry, but none of you have said ANYTHING that pertains to the original post. You're saying that my defination is wrong, but it's not. You're going into semantics f personal experience and the orgin of magic and where it comes from. The topic was a simple question asking the difference between witchcraft and Wicca.

I'm sorry for being so rude in this post, but none of you seem to have actually READ to original post. You both keep saying that I'm wrong, though I'm not. You just THINK I am because what you're talking about has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.

Here was the question:

"What's the difference between Wicca and Witchcraft?"

Here's what I answered:

"Witchcraft is practice that draws on supernatural forces. Wicca is a religion."

It was THAT simple. What the two of you are going on about has NOTHING to do with the question. So STOP saying that the rest of us are wrong and DON'T EVER say that someones topic is silly or stupid or whatever.

Do you UNDERSTAND what I'm syaing NOW? I've said this about 3 times, don't want to have to do it again. Again, I'm sorry for being so rude, but I'm tried of people syaing I'm wrong because THEY don't know what the conversation is about.  

[WitchyBoy]

its not what you say its how you say it, supernatural forces sounds too out there you could have said "a system of practices designed to create change through the use of will and mind" and that would have sufficed i think we may have interpreted what you said differently then what you meant and you know we often get off topic here on gaia so if i offended im sorry but thats just my opinion.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

WitchyBoy

its not what you say its how you say it, supernatural forces sounds too out there you could have said "a system of practices designed to create change through the use of will and mind" and that would have sufficed i think we may have interpreted what you said differently then what you meant and you know we often get off topic here on gaia so if i offended im sorry but thats just my opinion.

But it's NOT too out there. The description you give is too SPECIFIC. It's NOT just through will and mind. Many believe that it comes from spirits, or Gods. THAT is why we used the word supernatural. YOU both keep telling me magic can't be defined, but it's YOU who keeps trying to define it! Yes, you interpreted what I said differently, but I told you what I meant MULTIPLE times, QUITE clearly, and yet you CONTINUED on about how I was wrong about the source of magic, though I never said ANYTHING about that.  

[WitchyBoy]

Dragoness Arleeana

WitchyBoy

its not what you say its how you say it, supernatural forces sounds too out there you could have said "a system of practices designed to create change through the use of will and mind" and that would have sufficed i think we may have interpreted what you said differently then what you meant and you know we often get off topic here on gaia so if i offended im sorry but thats just my opinion.

But it's NOT too out there. The description you give is too SPECIFIC. It's NOT just through will and mind. Many believe that it comes from spirits, or Gods. THAT is why we used the word supernatural. YOU both keep telling me magic can't be defined, but it's YOU who keeps trying to define it! Yes, you interpreted what I said differently, but I told you what I meant MULTIPLE times, QUITE clearly, and yet you CONTINUED on about how I was wrong about the source of magic, though I never said ANYTHING about that.

i never said you were wrong leena i just thought that your definition sounded weird too me. and thats all this is opinion  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

WitchyBoy

Dragoness Arleeana

WitchyBoy

its not what you say its how you say it, supernatural forces sounds too out there you could have said "a system of practices designed to create change through the use of will and mind" and that would have sufficed i think we may have interpreted what you said differently then what you meant and you know we often get off topic here on gaia so if i offended im sorry but thats just my opinion.

But it's NOT too out there. The description you give is too SPECIFIC. It's NOT just through will and mind. Many believe that it comes from spirits, or Gods. THAT is why we used the word supernatural. YOU both keep telling me magic can't be defined, but it's YOU who keeps trying to define it! Yes, you interpreted what I said differently, but I told you what I meant MULTIPLE times, QUITE clearly, and yet you CONTINUED on about how I was wrong about the source of magic, though I never said ANYTHING about that.

i never said you were wrong leena i just thought that your definition sounded weird too me. and thats all this is opinion

Actually, you pretty much did. Seeing as you kept saying that what I was saying was too specific and that it's REALLY what you were saying. You basically said I was wrong, in a round-about way.

And this topic is NOT an opinion topic. Wicca and Witchcraft are NOT the same thing. Period. If they WERE the same thing then we COULD be considered devil-worshippers. If you HONESTLY think that mahic comes from nature and celestial beings then you're saying that all the other magic-using religions that draw on something else are wrong. But that has nothing to do with this topic, and what I'm saying should not be countered with it because it has NOTHING to do with the topic.

Wicca and Witchcraft are two completely seperate and different things. Period. There isn't any way that they are the same thing. If you want to continue to say that they are, then go ahead. But then you're saying that we ARE voudou users, that we ARE devil-worshippers and all the stuff that we hate hearing about the Wiccan religion. Because THOSE religions practice witchcraft. If you say that Wicca IS witchcraft, then you're saying that we're devil-worshippers.

On the topic of magic being found through your own personal experiences, that is true. But you need to realize that it's NOT just from nature. Magic DOES come from demonc energies, it DOES come from spirits and it ALSO comes from ones self. If you continue to think so narrowly you continue to deny the validity of other witchcraft using religions.  

[uninsured_speech]

Dragoness Arleeana - Wow. I am trying to understand where this aggression and negativity is coming from... before I say anything I don't mean, let me re-read...

To The gypsy Queen's original question was whether or not Wicca and Witchcraft were the same thing.

To answer that... no. Wicca is a religion, Witchcraft is not. Really, it seems there is no need to get into what Witchcraft is... the original question doesn't demand a definition. Not all Wiccan's practice Witchcraft. Not all Witches are Wiccan. Silver Ravenwolf (one of the worse for spreading this) and the other authors that feel the need to use the term interchangeably are wrong... despite a similar origin... they are two different things.

Now... here is where I get really confused. Unicornangel33 states that:

Quote:

Wicca is a religion based on natural beliefs and healing by totally natural means. Witchcraft is when you call upon otherwordly elements to aid in magic and scorcery etc...

Which... btw... I do not agree with the way this is worded. I think the problem is in the term 'otherworldly' and how that is meant. One of the differences between a Wiccan who practices magic and a Witch is that the Wiccan is more likely to call on deities, spiritis, elements, et al., while witches often do not use higher powers. Moving on.

So WitchyBoy asks for a source. Now I have to say that I find this perfectly reasonable. You can cite a source for anything... or you can say that it is your own belief, but even so, most people's beliefs are an amalgamation of their research.

And then Dragoness Arleeana... you seem to get bent because Witchy asked Unicorn for a source... Even you say you never thought to say it that way, so it is that unusual that Witchy never heard it put that way. Sorcha tries to insert some sense here but it only seems to get worse.

Asking for a source is perfectly reasonable. Definitions have sources. The meaning of the word magic is very subjective. There is no one set definition of something so vast. To insist that this one vague definition is THE definition and to get upset because someone questions that... all Witchy wanted to know is where Unicorn got her info. No big deal, and really, no skin off your nose.

Though you do finally provide a source and a precise definition, that actually proves both Witchy and Unicorn only partially right. You claim earlier that this is not the kind of thing that has sources, yet clearly it is... as you later prove.

And then you blow up... okay. So I hadn't missed anything. You did just seriously blow up for no real reason. Witchy never said that Wicca and Witchcraft were the same thing. Witchy Did not say that the question couldn't be answered. No one attacked your definition. No one attacked your post. Unless you and Unicorn are the same person... No one said that the topic was silly or stupid.

So I am still left wondering why you are freaking out over this. For the record, I think that the best definition of magic and witchcraft leaves out the supernatural or concept of higher powers. My reason is this... many people who practice magic and witchcraft do not believe in higher powers... or would not agree on just who those higher powers are. When you use a definition like Sorcha's "Witchcraft is manipulating energies to your will" or even Witchy's "a system of practices designed to create change through the use of will and mind"... then you are leaving it open. They are not restrictive, because one can use anything they want to achieve that change... whether it is God, Bastet, Satan, Fire, the Loa, the Saints... it all fits within the definition.

Finally... this is an opinion topic. All topics are opinion topics. No answer is so absolute that it is not open for discussion or interpretation. Frankly, the only one thinking narrowly here is YOU. In claiming that there is no room for interpretation, in claiming that a person does not have the right to reasonably request the source to back up someone's assertions, in using such absolutes to define, in putting forth the idea that you are right and that everyone else is just... well, just picking on you if I were to buy the rhetoric coming out of your posts. If you think that your ranting and raving has done anything to further understanding on the issue, or to provide answers... well I will put it this way. So far as this thread is concerned, you are the problem, not the solution.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

Sorry, I get aggressive when people don't listen to what I'm saying. He wasn't, as I've had to repeat myself mutiple times.

I realized what he meant later when he asked for a source. I thought he was refering to a source on when she stated that wicca is a religion based on natural beliefs. (which really WOULD be a stupid thing to ask for a source)

What I got upset about is that he has continaully disregarded what I've ben trying to explain. They keep bringing up that the definition of magic is personal and found through ones one experiences and beliefs. Whish as I said, I agree with. But the problem with him bringing that up is that it isn't what we're talking about. Because of the way we worded the definition for witchcraft (to show how it was different from Wicca) he ASUUMED that we were trying to say that everyone draws their magic from the same place and in the same way.

Unicorn used the word "otherworldly" I've been using the word "supernatural" (which I think is more accurate to include all witchcraft styles). It was merely a way to state the differences of Wicca and Witchcraft. We weren't trying to define magic, in ANY way. I didn't think to just put it as otherworldly. Witchy has never heard it defined sa that at all. I've heard her definition, just didn't think to state it that way.

The problem I'm having with Witchy is that he keeps stating that he's only ever heard of magic as comng from nature, thus making it seem like what we're saying is wrong. What we're saying isn't wrong though. He's taking a COMPLETELY diferent topic and trying to use the logic from that to work into this situation. NOW, if we were talking about the source of magic and how that relate to Wicca, that'd make sense. But we're not. we're just talking about the difference of Wicca and Witchcraft. Which I've stated multiple times, yet he persists to repeat himself.

Whatever the definition of witchcraft is, wherever the power for its magic come from, doesn't matter right now, THAT'S what I'm trying to say. I've told him, it was merely OUR points of view that we used, but I've stated again and again, that there are many different views on magic, but it doesn't matter here. The opinion of THAT doesn't matter. (that's what I meant that it was not an opinion topic) This thread isn't about the definition of magic. It's JUST about the difference of wicca and Witchcraft.

Wicca is a religion. witchcraft is a practice that uses supernatural forces. (whether that be nature, celestial bodies, gods, spirits, demonic energies or whatever)

THAT'S what I got so upset about. That I continued to try and explain to him that we wern't trying to define magic, it was just one way of putting it.  

[uninsured_speech]

I can see what you are saying, but unless a lot of stuff happened in PMs or in edited posts, your reaction just seems way disproportionate. The fight seemed pretty one sided. *shrugs*  

[WitchyBoy]

apparently whatever i say is an attack on leena so im not going to participate in this thread anymore.  

[Nahrzak]

Witches are Inharmonies Sad Sacks of Crap, and Wiccans are Melodic Mages of Healing and Enchanting or Death and Destruction... Or both...  

[Scilene]

Wicca itself is a religion while Witchcraft is something that is practiced by Wiccans and people of various other religions, though one who is Wiccan does not absolutely have to practice it. It is possible to be Wiccan without being a Witch, just as it is possible to be a Witch without being Wiccan.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

WitchyBoy

i wouldnt say that but i think its kind of a strange topic i mean after all isnt magick all experiential so you have to experience it to understand?

That was the post I was refering to when I said people we're calling it strange. The one right above it pretty much called the person stupid for asking the question. (which was one reason I got bent out of shape)

Witchy, I'm not saying that you're attacking what I'm saying directly, though you have pretty much told me I'm wrong. The problem I've had with your posts, and I still don't think you realize, is that you keep trying to say that we're trying to define magic, which we're NOT.

You and sorcha started saying that we were trying to define semantics and that it'd just keep going around in a circle. You were putting words into our mouths that we never uttered. We wern't trying to define magic and you got all dismissive when you thought we had. I've been TRYING to tell you that this topic and what we said had NOTHING to do with that.  

[Dragoness Arleeana]

Nahrzak

Witches are Inharmonies Sad Sacks of Crap, and Wiccans are Melodic Mages of Healing and Enchanting or Death and Destruction... Or both...

Are all of your posts like this? You obviously have no grasp of the Wiccan religion and have no tollerance for other pagans. Wiccans are witches, we practice witchcraft, therfor we're witches. We arn't mages, that's not even a term used in any pagan religion that I know of, and it's DEFFINATLY not a Wiccan term.

I don't know if you yourself claim to be Wiccan and if you do how long you've been on the path, but you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. I hope you're not going around telling people this because it's going to give many pagans a bad name. You need to read up a bit before you go running your mouth saying such things.  

[Kitanya_Rose]

Phoenix had made a topic for this..... Did that get deleted or what? It had graphics, and discussion.. and all sorts of things.  

[iRayneMoon]

Well Wicca is a faith but witchcraft is more like a way to get something done. Like prayer or offerings. I suppose depending on how a wiccan worshipped witchcraft could go along with their faith but the two aren't the same i think.